Advice for buying first diamond

[OZ_W]

Hi PS Community,

I stumbled across this forum in my search for buying a diamond engagement ring. I'm from the land down under and unfortunately the offerings here are not very competitive to whats on offer elsewhere particularly online. The amount of info and choices is mind boggling so I was hoping to borrow some of your expertise .

I have picked the setting below and am now trying to figure out what diamond to choose.
https://www.whiteflash.com/engageme...-solitaire-engagement-ring-by-vatche-1613.htm

I am looking for a round diamond with focus on brilliance and size, colourless to the average person and eye clean.
With current exchange rates my budget for the diamond is about $13,000 USD. Here's a few I've looked at:

1. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3565128.htm
Largest size but doesn't appear to be particularly brilliant from the image

2. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-1466947.htm

3. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4011141.htm

4. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3947713.htm

5. https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3961913.htm

After a while they all look the same . Happy to hear your thoughts.
Thanks in advance (Sorry for long post)

 

[Snowdrop13]

To some extent with the ACA line you can just pick your budget and parameters and choose the one that fits best- they have all been vetted and will all be beautiful.

However- that first H Si1 says “inquire” in the “eye clean” box, you’ll have to ask them if it is eye clean to your requirements.

My choice would be the 1.543ct I VS2.

 

[Matthews1127]

To some extent with the ACA line you can just pick your budget and parameters and choose the one that fits best- they have all been vetted and will all be beautiful.

However- that first H Si1 says “inquire” in the “eye clean” box, you’ll have to ask them if it is eye clean to your requirements.

My choice would be the 1.543ct I VS2.

I’m Team 1.543IVS2, as well.
Beautiful spread for its weight, and extremely white for an “I”. ACA’s will face-up whiter because of their superior cut. You can’t go wrong with a super-ideal.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I'd choose either of the two 1.5 ct stones. I prefer H color but I prefer VS clarity. You'll see color more than clarity as long as both are eyeclean, which it says they are. You can't go wrong with a Whiteflash ACA! They are gorgeous stones!

 

[OZ_W]

Thanks for the advice! Just trying to get the best for my gf with the budget

 

[Todd Gray]

In terms of proportions, they're all within the same range and thus you can expect a high volume of light return and a virtual balance of brilliance and dispersion.

There are, however, differences in the degree of optical precision exhibited by the diamonds, which is evident in the differences visible in the consistency of the hearts patterns (this statement is true of all hearts and arrows diamonds regardless of brand).

Look at the hearts... Allow your eyes to relax and just get used to the idea of evaluating the hearts patterns in terms of uniformity.

I know that it can seem overwhelming the first time you start looking at the reflector scope images provided for each diamond, but it gets easier if you take a moment or two to breath and just allow yourself to really focus on the image.

Look at the hearts... do you see how each hearts pattern is slightly different from the next?

There are differences in the size and shape of the hearts... There are differences in the spacing around the hearts... There is a little bit of twisting in the tips of some of the hearts, some of which may or may not be due to diamond surface to camera lens alignment and tilt (but that's the vendors problem, not yours, it's their job to provide you with the most consistent and best images possible, so that you may make an informed decision).

And know, that those of us in the trade, evaluate the hearts in terms of pairs, because the light reflecting off the pavilion main facets (which create the arrows pattern) on one side of the diamond, reflects across the diamond and splits apart into two halves, each of which creates one half of the heart as that light reflects off of the lower girdle facets on the other half of the diamond.

And as this process repeats itself, let's say in a clockwise direction, the two halves of each heart become one, very much in the same way that you and your loved one are now joining together as two halves of a heart to form one heart that beats together (awwww)

And with that in mind, which of the hearts patterns appears to be the most consistent from your perspective?

From mine, it appears to be the 1.435 carat, but that's just the way I see it. How about you?

 

[FANTASTIC FOX]

Hi Oz,

I'm not an expert but I just went through this whole thing myself. I spent a few months pouring over this stuff. I agree with Todd on the 1.435 or the 1.543. One thing you can say about Todd is that he is extremely thorough. He was very helpful in my search.

You might also consider Brian Gavin. There are a handful within your parameters.

If you are not as color sensitive, This "J" color is a monster size for your price range. I thought "J" was going to be a little too yellow until I saw a few samples from WF in person. But everyone is different.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/1.820-j-vs1-round-diamond-ags-104097376007

If you are able to wait a few weeks for the grading, here are a couple nice ones from their "Advance Selection". From my experience, it took about a month to receive it. The proportions did change a little bit from their original estimate but that was to be expected. In the end, I was very satisfied with BGD. The stone is an absolute firecracker.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.558-i-vvs2-round-diamond-bfg-785602

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.565-i-vs1-round-diamond-bfg-785430

Lastly, If you do go with a WF diamond. I suggest asking for the "Advanced Sarin Report". You just want to double check if you have any outliers in the averages of the proportions.

Good luck sir... you are in the right place.

 

[Todd Gray]

Hi Oz,

I'm not an expert but I just went through this whole thing myself. I spent a few months pouring over this stuff. I agree with Todd on the 1.435 or the 1.543. One thing you can say about Todd is that he is extremely thorough. He was very helpful in my search.

Thank you for the compliment... very kind.

 

[sledge]

First, great explanation by @Todd Gray on the hearts. Truly one of the best I've seen.

That said, the smart ass in me was flashing back to this movie clip in my head, lol. You know, circles...hearts.

 

[Todd Gray]

First, great explanation by @Todd Gray on the hearts. Truly one of the best I've seen.

That said, the smart ass in me was flashing back to this movie clip in my head, lol. You know, circles...hearts.

Thanks Sledge, I appreciate it.

That video clip is hilarious. I actually hadn't seen it before... Must have missed that movie. Going to have to watch it.

 

[sledge]

Thanks Sledge, I appreciate it.

That video clip is hilarious. I actually hadn't seen it before... Must have missed that movie. Going to have to watch it.

You're welcome. I paused after I sent that and realized I didn't know you and hoped you had not taken my (sometimes weird) sense of humor the wrong way.

The movie is great, but I like the quirky acting styles of Adam Sandler and Kevin James. I keep telling my fiance that I am going to find that little Asian guy to do our wedding and she can slap me and we can react the scene. She wasn't as thrilled as I was with the idea.

That slap and the little Asian's face afterwards puts me in tears from laughing almost every time.

 

[Todd Gray]

You're welcome. I paused after I sent that and realized I didn't know you and hoped you had not taken my (sometimes weird) sense of humor the wrong way.

The movie is great, but I like the quirky acting styles of Adam Sandler and Kevin James. I keep telling my fiance that I am going to find that little Asian guy to do our wedding and she can slap me and we can react the scene. She wasn't as thrilled as I was with the idea.

That slap and the little Asian's face afterwards puts me in tears from laughing almost every time.

No worries at all, I've got a totally twisted sense of humor (which frequently lands me in trouble).

Hey, you never know, you might run into the Asian guy who is presenting the vows...

A few months ago, my girlfriend's daughter ran into Zach Galifianakis (Jack from the Hangover) in the little corner market located up the street from our house in Puerto Vallarta. It's a small world and you never know who you'll run into.

Speaking of which, I see that you're a scuba diver and I'm a freediver, so we might cross paths one of these days

 

[OZ_W]

In terms of proportions, they're all within the same range and thus you can expect a high volume of light return and a virtual balance of brilliance and dispersion.

There are, however, differences in the degree of optical precision exhibited by the diamonds, which is evident in the differences visible in the consistency of the hearts patterns (this statement is true of all hearts and arrows diamonds regardless of brand).

Look at the hearts... Allow your eyes to relax and just get used to the idea of evaluating the hearts patterns in terms of uniformity.

I know that it can seem overwhelming the first time you start looking at the reflector scope images provided for each diamond, but it gets easier if you take a moment or two to breath and just allow yourself to really focus on the image.

Look at the hearts... do you see how each hearts pattern is slightly different from the next?

There are differences in the size and shape of the hearts... There are differences in the spacing around the hearts... There is a little bit of twisting in the tips of some of the hearts, some of which may or may not be due to diamond surface to camera lens alignment and tilt (but that's the vendors problem, not yours, it's their job to provide you with the most consistent and best images possible, so that you may make an informed decision).

And know, that those of us in the trade, evaluate the hearts in terms of pairs, because the light reflecting off the pavilion main facets (which create the arrows pattern) on one side of the diamond, reflects across the diamond and splits apart into two halves, each of which creates one half of the heart as that light reflects off of the lower girdle facets on the other half of the diamond.

And as this process repeats itself, let's say in a clockwise direction, the two halves of each heart become one, very much in the same way that you and your loved one are now joining together as two halves of a heart to form one heart that beats together (awwww)

And with that in mind, which of the hearts patterns appears to be the most consistent from your perspective?

From mine, it appears to be the 1.435 carat, but that's just the way I see it. How about you?

Thanks for the Diamond 101 on H&A. I can now appreciate what you mean after clicking back and forth between the hearts images. The 1.435 definitely has the best symmetry with others appearing slightly off. For the average person would this affect light return significantly or rather is it noticeable?

I also noticed around the periphery of the 1.543 diamond near the 4 o'clock position some blue - what does that mean?

 

[OZ_W]

Hi Oz,

I'm not an expert but I just went through this whole thing myself. I spent a few months pouring over this stuff. I agree with Todd on the 1.435 or the 1.543. One thing you can say about Todd is that he is extremely thorough. He was very helpful in my search.

You might also consider Brian Gavin. There are a handful within your parameters.

If you are not as color sensitive, This "J" color is a monster size for your price range. I thought "J" was going to be a little too yellow until I saw a few samples from WF in person. But everyone is different.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/...ls/1.820-j-vs1-round-diamond-ags-104097376007

If you are able to wait a few weeks for the grading, here are a couple nice ones from their "Advance Selection". From my experience, it took about a month to receive it. The proportions did change a little bit from their original estimate but that was to be expected. In the end, I was very satisfied with BGD. The stone is an absolute firecracker.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.558-i-vvs2-round-diamond-bfg-785602

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.565-i-vs1-round-diamond-bfg-785430

Lastly, If you do go with a WF diamond. I suggest asking for the "Advanced Sarin Report". You just want to double check if you have any outliers in the averages of the proportions.

Good luck sir... you are in the right place.

Thanks for the suggestions - from my subtle sleuthing over the months my gf appears to really like the Vatche Setting (although most of them look quite similar to me haha). Thats the main reason I have stuck to using WF.

Is there a difference between the Sarine report thats available on the website vs the "Advanced Sarin Report"? Sorry if its a dumb question - still trying to learn. From a look at the available reports the table, depths, angles etc for the 1.543 and 1.435 appear within ideal bounds.

 

[sledge]

Thanks for the suggestions - from my subtle sleuthing over the months my gf appears to really like the Vatche Setting (although most of them look quite similar to me haha). Thats the main reason I have stuck to using WF.

Is there a difference between the Sarine report thats available on the website vs the "Advanced Sarin Report"? Sorry if its a dumb question - still trying to learn. From a look at the available reports the table, depths, angles etc for the 1.543 and 1.435 appear within ideal bounds.

Here is a detailed response from WF:
https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/sarin-diamond-reports-1512.htm

Essentially, both are available but the advanced is only done on request. The advantage is to see the angles at every facet instead of an averaged value.

This can be especially useful and helpful when pursuing stones on the fringe of ideal cut and you want to make sure an angle doesn't dip below a preferred minimum.

I'm sure trade experts like @Texas Leaguer, @Wink or @John Pollard can get into more in depth technical explanations if needed.

 

[Todd Gray]

Thanks for the suggestions - from my subtle sleuthing over the months my gf appears to really like the Vatche Setting (although most of them look quite similar to me haha). Thats the main reason I have stuck to using WF.

Is there a difference between the Sarine report thats available on the website vs the "Advanced Sarin Report"? Sorry if its a dumb question - still trying to learn. From a look at the available reports the table, depths, angles etc for the 1.543 and 1.435 appear within ideal bounds.

Are you referring to the little bit of blue that shows up along the edge of the diamond in several places in the clarity photograph?

Take a look at the ASET image provided on the diamond grading report.

Do you see the sections along the edge of the diamond that appears to be green, I believe that's the correlation because you'll see that the pattern is green in some of those areas and not in others.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

We are certainly no strangers to customers who want to slice and dice every detail of the diamonds they are considering, and as such we are happy to provide a variety of advanced analytics and imaging. One of the many advantages for customers shopping in-stock diamonds is the ability to get in-depth consultation and specialized information that may be important in making final decisions.

Having said that, it is also important to recognize the level of vetting that is already inherent in the offerings, especially with regard to our superideal brand. All of our specifications and qualifications are prominently posted here:
https://www.whiteflash.com/a-cut-above-diamonds-specifications-and-qualifications/

While cut quality and light performance details at a level beyond this comprehensive standard might be interesting to some shoppers, the law of diminishing returns definitely starts to come into play in terms of how much more value can possibly be squeezed out of this "C"! We have set the bar this high so that customers who would prefer not to get deep into the weeds on the technicalities can move to other issues with confidence that nothing is being left on the table with regard to the most important C. More relevant for most customers at this point are carat, color, clarity, and of course, the fifth C - Cost.

Other important value factors also come into play such as added value benefits and policies, selection/quality of ring designs, turn around times, etc. It is frequently a good idea to zoom out and get the 10,000 ft view of the entire project in order to keep everything in good perspective.

 

[Todd Gray]

We are certainly no strangers to customers who want to slice and dice every detail of the diamonds they are considering, and as such we are happy to provide a variety of advanced analytics and imaging. One of the many advantages for customers shopping in-stock diamonds is the ability to get in-depth consultation and specialized information that may be important in making final decisions.

Having said that, it is also important to recognize the level of vetting that is already inherent in the offerings, especially with regard to our superideal brand. All of our specifications and qualifications are prominently posted here:
https://www.whiteflash.com/a-cut-above-diamonds-specifications-and-qualifications/

While cut quality and light performance details at a level beyond this comprehensive standard might be interesting to some shoppers, the law of diminishing returns definitely starts to come into play in terms of how much more value can possibly be squeezed out of this "C"! We have set the bar this high so that customers who would prefer not to get deep into the weeds on the technicalities can move to other issues with confidence that nothing is being left on the table with regard to the most important C. More relevant for most customers at this point are carat, color, clarity, and of course, the fifth C - Cost.

Other important value factors also come into play such as added value benefits and policies, selection/quality of ring designs, turn around times, etc. It is frequently a good idea to zoom out and get the 10,000 ft view of the entire project in order to keep everything in good perspective.

All good points, but what the OP was trying to figure out was how to determine which WF ACA diamond to pick based upon the differences, e.g. which WF ACA diamond is the best of the group.

And the way we do that at this level of the game, is to look at the hearts patterns which are a reflection of the degree of optical precision that each diamond has been cut to exhibit.

When everything else about the diamonds is relatively equal, this is what we rely upon the reflector scope images to help us see the differences between hearts and arrows diamonds, right?

 

[sledge]

I'm not trying to speak on behalf of @Texas Leaguer by any stretch. That said, I think his bigger point was WF has a pretty strict and narrow set of criteria for a diamond even making the ACA grade. To dissect that even further may not be advantageous for the average consumer, and is not cost efficient for WF, yet they will do what it takes for excellent customer service and to provide the reassurance needed to close a sale.

I appreciate WF for not only the "standard measures" they take, but also for going above & beyond to provide additional data available to those that seek it and can analyze it. I don't doubt WF's dedication to their quality metrics because I've seen in a few threads where someone will say an ACA looks odd and @Texas Leaguer has popped in, reviewed and commented. At least once one of the ACA's were downgraded to a Premium Select so if anything I feel they err on the side of conservatism.

WF's commitment to transparency, and providing so much data and just "doing the right thing" is why I frequently recommend them to people. It is rare to find a company so dedicated to this philosophy and I commend them for a job well done.

 

[Todd Gray]

I'm not trying to speak on behalf of @Texas Leaguer by any stretch. That said, I think his bigger point was WF has a pretty strict and narrow set of criteria for a diamond even making the ACA grade. To dissect that even further may not be advantageous for the average consumer, and is not cost efficient for WF, yet they will do what it takes for excellent customer service and to provide the reassurance needed to close a sale.

I appreciate WF for not only the "standard measures" they take, but also for going above & beyond to provide additional data available to those that seek it and can analyze it. I don't doubt WF's dedication to their quality metrics because I've seen in a few threads where someone will say an ACA looks odd and @Texas Leaguer has popped in, reviewed and commented. At least once one of the ACA's were downgraded to a Premium Select so if anything I feel they err on the side of conservatism.

WF's commitment to transparency, and providing so much data and just "doing the right thing" is why I frequently recommend them to people. It is rare to find a company so dedicated to this philosophy and I commend them for a job well done.

And I'm not trying to suggest that they don't...

Let's make that clear.

We're talking about diamonds that represent the Top 1% to 0.001% of the annual production for round brilliant cut diamonds.

And the way that we distinguish the Top 1% from the 0.001% is by scrutinizing the consistency of the hearts patterns exhibited by diamonds of this cut quality.

Which is all I'm trying to explain. I believe that the OP was trying to determine which of the WF ACA diamonds that he was considering was the best, and with that in mind, looking at the hearts and the reflector scope images is how to make that determination, right?

 

[Texas Leaguer]

And I'm not trying to suggest that they don't...

Let's make that clear.

We're talking about diamonds that represent the Top 1% to 0.001% of the annual production for round brilliant cut diamonds.

And the way that we distinguish the Top 1% from the 0.001% is by scrutinizing the consistency of the hearts patterns exhibited by diamonds of this cut quality.

Which is all I'm trying to explain. I believe that the OP was trying to determine which of the WF ACA diamonds that he was considering was the best, and with that in mind, looking at the hearts and the reflector scope images is how to make that determination, right?

Yes, I definitely agree that many shoppers are very technical, especially those that find their way here. And very knowledgeable people here enjoy helping them slice and dice the details. That's all to the good.

Sometimes people who are not looking to get quite that 'granular' might get an out sized impression of how much real world difference some of the details might actually make. Especially when we factor in such things as small amounts of instrumentation deviations in the photo and even scanning process.

Thus my comments about not losing sight of the 10,00 ft view.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I'm not trying to speak on behalf of @Texas Leaguer by any stretch. That said, I think his bigger point was WF has a pretty strict and narrow set of criteria for a diamond even making the ACA grade. To dissect that even further may not be advantageous for the average consumer, and is not cost efficient for WF, yet they will do what it takes for excellent customer service and to provide the reassurance needed to close a sale.

I appreciate WF for not only the "standard measures" they take, but also for going above & beyond to provide additional data available to those that seek it and can analyze it. I don't doubt WF's dedication to their quality metrics because I've seen in a few threads where someone will say an ACA looks odd and @Texas Leaguer has popped in, reviewed and commented. At least once one of the ACA's were downgraded to a Premium Select so if anything I feel they err on the side of conservatism.

WF's commitment to transparency, and providing so much data and just "doing the right thing" is why I frequently recommend them to people. It is rare to find a company so dedicated to this philosophy and I commend them for a job well done.

Thank you for the nice comments Sledge.

 

[Todd Gray]

Thank you for the nice comments Sledge.

Yip, Yep, and Yup

 

[OZ_W]

Thanks for the input Texas - I agree with your point at taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture. I guess I'm a fairly OCD and a technical person by nature so the more I research the more I like to min-max so to speak.

Looking for a diamond has been surprisingly more interesting that I initially thought it would be - with thanks to people like Todd who are happy to share their knowledge.

@sledge - I definitely think I'm getting a better diamond than I would have via bricks and mortar here in Australia and I'm glad I took the effort to do my homework.

 

[rockysalamander]

Largest. . https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3565128.htm

Iu will say that the setting you selected is really not my favorite. How about this one? A PS poster had WF customize the Legato Sleek to make it 6-prongs. It turned out beautifully. You might ask about the cost for that one since all they'd need to do is make the head fit your stone.
https://www.whiteflash.com/engageme...line-solitaire-engagement-ring-728.htm#size=6

From the top with a wedding band

 

[sledge]

Love the side profile of that head @rockysalamander.

And yes @OZ_W I agree you will get a great deal with WF. Not just a good price but a great product, data and excellent customer service.

I tend to be technical myself so i understand your position. Continue to ask questions and be curious.

 

[Todd Gray]

Thanks for the input Texas - I agree with your point at taking a step back and looking at the bigger picture. I guess I'm a fairly OCD and a technical person by nature so the more I research the more I like to min-max so to speak.

Looking for a diamond has been surprisingly more interesting that I initially thought it would be - with thanks to people like Todd who are happy to share their knowledge.

@sledge - I definitely think I'm getting a better diamond than I would have via bricks and mortar here in Australia and I'm glad I took the effort to do my homework.

OCD, more technical clients tend to be my forte, most likely because I tend to be that way myself with regards to the diamond selection process. My father and step-father were each one of 99 think tank engineers for SRI back in the day, so you know, what do you expect?

Just cutting the lawn at the house required a schematic and a meeting (not kidding).

In my experience, the majority of brick and mortar jewelry stores do not offer hearts and arrows diamonds, and the few who do, charge exorbitant prices for them.