adoption by gay couples?

[somethingshiny]

Off topic... feel free to skip...

Kenny~ I''m actually considering homeschooling to preserve our family values. I don''t think you''re trying to say that all homeschooling is a cult and a way to poison young minds, but regular people are now considering it to avoid the hate, favortism, sports-first-mentality that is in some school systems.

I kind of agree with the old minds dying out philosophy. My dad is a flat out racist, sexist, homophobic, etc person. There is no changing him. My sis really wanted to date a black guy but knew that if it worked out, she''d never be welcome in her parents'' home. I know that if one of my children is gay, they will no longer have a grandfather. I''d like to say it''s because we live in a podunk town and he never got out. But, the fact is, we lived in a major metropolitan area for a long time and it only made him more hateful.

 

[kenny]

Date: 6/30/2010 5:46:31 PM
Author: somethingshiny
I don't think you're trying to say that all homeschooling is a cult and a way to poison young minds,

Of course not.

And I despise when posters do twist words as such - which happens ALL the time here.
"You said X therefore you must also mean Y and Z. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"

Note, I am NOT saying you did that and thanks for asking instead of assuming.

 

[Laila619]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:17:43 PM
Author: Clairitek

Date: 6/30/2010 1:18:40 PM
Author: Laila619
Obviously, gay adoption is better than having a child languish in an orphanage, or be mistreated by his bio parents.

But say there were two choices for said child: two equally stable and loving couples who were wanting to adopt him, one gay and one hetero. Would everyone agree in that instance that the hetero couple is best for the child?

The sad reality is that if you can't reproduce on your own (this includes gays obviously), you're subject to all sorts of hoops and other crap to attain a child another way. A drugged out woman on crack and food stamps can pop out a kid any time she wants, but a loving and committed couple who is infertile and wants to adopt has to endure all sorts of extensive interviews, intrusive home studies, paperwork, etc. It's total BS but that's the way it is. Never mind that they are way more qualified and stable than the crack mom, but you don't see her having to jump through hoops or be pre-approved.

No, I would never agree with you that given the situation you described that it would always be better for the child to go to a hetero couple.

A side note: Being on food stamps makes you a bad or unqualified parent? Stuff happens and sometimes people need a little extra help getting food for themselves and the people they take care of. Certainly doesn't make them inept at raising a child.

No, being on crack and food stamps makes one a bad parent, which is what I originally wrote.

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:11:05 PM
Author: Jennifer W

Date: 6/30/2010 2:51:45 PM

Author: kenny

I didn''t choose to be gay.


How absurd.


Why would anyone choose to be in a hated group?



I was different since my earliest memories.


I lived in confusion and self-hate till I had my first experience at age 23.


Even today I''m positive that the damage from hate is not fully reversed.

Kenny, are you really in a hated group? Is that how it feels?

Jen

Jen, that is exactly how it feels.

 

[Laila619]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:10:46 PM
Author: stephb0lt

Date: 6/30/2010 3:00:15 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Let''s use a different example. If you were to come to me and say '' I LOVE eggplant. Eggplant is the best food on earth'' I could completely disagree with how you feel, and what you think about that, but still like you as a person, and completely respect you.

Another example. You could think a man is THE single most attractive man on earth... he is hands down the only person you''d want to be with. Would I have a lack of respect for you if I disagreed with your taste? If I thought the man was ugly?

Yet another example. You could consider PETA to be your life calling. You could say to me '' I work for PETA.. it is my life.. it is who I am and what I do, and I feel that they are correct in their thought and belief''. Do I magically have to agree with that to like you, and respect you as a person?


Same thing in my opinion. It is a thought, a feeling, a response evoked by a positive reaction hormonally or mentally or emotionally that has a large presence to you and is a major part of who you are and what you do (though maybe not the eggplant part). So I am wrong for disagreeing with those things? You don''t choose whether you are attracted to the man, but do I respect you less for liking the man when I don''t find him remotely interesting?

Dragonfly, none of these examples can be compared to being homosexual. None of them are intrinsic qualities of the individual. More comparable examples, to me, would be if you said you didn''t agree with having curly hair, or being tall, or being of a different race. Would you make any claims like that? As Kenny said, being gay isn''t a ''choice.'' I really want to understand where you are coming from that you feel it''s a quality that can be agreed or disagreed with.

This is where I''m guessing Dragonfly is coming from. To her, she views homosexuality as a lifestyle choice, much like someone who belongs to PETA, and doesn''t view being gay as an "intrinsic quality of the individual." That''s how she can support and respect the person, but not the lifestyle. Dragonfly, if I''m wrong, sorry for speaking for you.

 

[Jennifer W]

Date: 6/30/2010 5:54:42 PM
Author: Imdanny

Date: 6/30/2010 3:11:05 PM

Author: Jennifer W

Date: 6/30/2010 2:51:45 PM


Author: kenny


I didn''t choose to be gay.



How absurd.



Why would anyone choose to be in a hated group?




I was different since my earliest memories.



I lived in confusion and self-hate till I had my first experience at age 23.



Even today I''m positive that the damage from hate is not fully reversed.

Kenny, are you really in a hated group? Is that how it feels?


Jen

Jen, that is exactly how it feels.

I''m sorry. Sorry you feel that way, sorry you''re made to feel that way. I guess I wasn''t aware of that. You do know that it isn''t universal, that many (most?) people do not hate you because of your sexuality, right?

Jen

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 6/30/2010 5:53:33 PM
Author: Laila619

Date: 6/30/2010 3:17:43 PM

Author: Clairitek

Date: 6/30/2010 1:18:40 PM

Author: Laila619

Obviously, gay adoption is better than having a child languish in an orphanage, or be mistreated by his bio parents.


But say there were two choices for said child: two equally stable and loving couples who were wanting to adopt him, one gay and one hetero. Would everyone agree in that instance that the hetero couple is best for the child?


The sad reality is that if you can''t reproduce on your own (this includes gays obviously), you''re subject to all sorts of hoops and other crap to attain a child another way. A drugged out woman on crack and food stamps can pop out a kid any time she wants, but a loving and committed couple who is infertile and wants to adopt has to endure all sorts of extensive interviews, intrusive home studies, paperwork, etc. It''s total BS but that''s the way it is. Never mind that they are way more qualified and stable than the crack mom, but you don''t see her having to jump through hoops or be pre-approved.

No, I would never agree with you that given the situation you described that it would always be better for the child to go to a hetero couple.


A side note: Being on food stamps makes you a bad or unqualified parent? Stuff happens and sometimes people need a little extra help getting food for themselves and the people they take care of. Certainly doesn''t make them inept at raising a child.

No, being on crack and food stamps makes one a bad parent, which is what I originally wrote.

I''d like to point out that 50 million people are on food stamps and it''s a perfectly legal program. I don''t think people on food stamps are necessarily bad parents.

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 6/30/2010 6:06:25 PM
Author: Jennifer W

I'm sorry. Sorry you feel that way, sorry you're made to feel that way. I guess I wasn't aware of that. You do know that it isn't universal, that many (most?) people do not hate you because of your sexuality, right?


Jen

[/quote]

Yes, thank you.

I think this thread proves that- how many great posts in this thread. I was thinking about that yesterday. Very thoughtful, supportive, articulate posts that people took a lot of time and energy to write. I appreciate it!

 

[Laila619]

Imdanny, again I said being on crack and food stamps is what makes one a bad parent. NOT simply being on food stamps.

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 6/30/2010 6:17:38 PM
Author: Laila619
Imdanny, again I said being on crack and food stamps is what makes one a bad parent. NOT simply being on food stamps.

Ok, sorry.

 

[Laila619]

Date: 6/30/2010 6:18:09 PM
Author: Imdanny

Date: 6/30/2010 6:17:38 PM
Author: Laila619
Imdanny, again I said being on crack and food stamps is what makes one a bad parent. NOT simply being on food stamps.

Ok, sorry.

No problem Danny.

Just didn''t want something else to spiral out of control.

 

[bee*]

Date: 6/30/2010 9:34:27 AM
Author: Circe
And, to get back to the topic at hand ... I support gay adoption with every fiber of my being, in the same way that I support any child who is unwanted by his or her bio-parents finding a loving home.

this is how I feel also. My little sister and her girlfriend are hoping to adopt children later in life and they would make great parents. They''ve been together many years, both have great jobs, are caring, loving etc. I really do not understand how, solely due to the fact that they are both women, people would be against them adopting.

 

[bee*]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:00:15 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Let''s use a different example. If you were to come to me and say '' I LOVE eggplant. Eggplant is the best food on earth'' I could completely disagree with how you feel, and what you think about that, but still like you as a person, and completely respect you.


Another example. You could think a man is THE single most attractive man on earth... he is hands down the only person you''d want to be with. Would I have a lack of respect for you if I disagreed with your taste? If I thought the man was ugly?


Yet another example. You could consider PETA to be your life calling. You could say to me '' I work for PETA.. it is my life.. it is who I am and what I do, and I feel that they are correct in their thought and belief''. Do I magically have to agree with that to like you, and respect you as a person?



Same thing in my opinion. It is a thought, a feeling, a response evoked by a positive reaction hormonally or mentally or emotionally that has a large presence to you and is a major part of who you are and what you do (though maybe not the eggplant part). So I am wrong for disagreeing with those things? You don''t choose whether you are attracted to the man, but do I respect you less for liking the man when I don''t find him remotely interesting?

I actually don''t know how to respond to this post

. Being gay is not the same as having an opinion about food, being involved in a group or finding different physical attributes attractive. It''s not a lifestyle choice. It''s who they are as a person. As Kenny said, it''s not a choosing. I don''t see what there is to agree with. And I also don''t understand why you would tell all your lesbian friends not to hit on you. How presumptive.

 

[kenny]

You know, there is nothing in PS rules about gloating.

I want to gloat.
I'm going to gloat.
I've earned it.

This issue is going my way.
Yes it is two steps forward and one step back but it is only a matter time before all gay discrimination is a thing of the past.
It may be a long time.
Maybe I won't see it in my lifetime.
But is IS a sure thing.
Equality IS inevitable!

I am heartened there are so many pro-equality responses in this thread.
You ladies are raising tomorrow's voters.
Frankly it feels a little like being let out of a jail cell.

Thank you and a big hug all you supporters of equality.

 

[missy]

Date: 6/30/2010 1:21:52 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 6/30/2010 1:18:40 PM

Author: Laila619

But say there were two choices for said child: two equally stable and loving couples who were wanting to adopt him, one gay and one hetero. Would everyone agree in that instance that the hetero couple is best for the child?

Great question that really gets to the core of the issue: 'Is homosexuality a bad thing?'


If there was no bigotry-disguised-as-morality in the world it would be a coin toss.

Since there still is, and will be for the foreseeable future, the straight couple is the best choice today, IMHO.

I do not think a straight couple is automatically better at being loving parents than a gay couple...at all. It depends on the couple, obviously! So no, I would not make a blanket statement saying that the straight couple is the better choice...because there are too many variables when choosing who would be the better couple to parent said child... and none of them concern the sexual orientation of either couple.

 

[missy]

Date: 6/30/2010 5:35:11 PM
Author: Callisto
This whole thread makes me so sad. There will be a day where our descendants will look at our generation as 'those hateful people' the way we look at slave owners and all who perpetuated racism in the world for years. While it pains me to be part of a generation that still harbors this hatred for another group of people, I can only hope to raise my children to be loving and open minded people by showing compassion for all those who are different than myself and striving for equal rights for all citizens in my country and others around the world.

HUGE DITTO to your post Callisto!

 

[bee*]

Date: 6/30/2010 6:43:51 PM
Author: kenny
You know, there is nothing in PS rules about gloating.


I want to gloat.

I''m going to gloat.


This issue is going my way.

Yes it is two steps forward and one step back but it is only a matter time before all gay discrimination is a thing of the past.

Maybe a long time.

Maybe I won''t see it in my lifetime.

But is IS a sure thing.

Equality IS inevitable!


I am heartened there are so many pro-equality response in this thread.

You ladies are raising tomorrows voters.

Frankly it feels a little like being let out of a jail cell.


Thank you and a big hug all you supporters of equality.

hugs right back at you. Glad that this thread has cheered you!

 

[missy]

Date: 6/30/2010 6:43:51 PM
Author: kenny
You know, there is nothing in PS rules about gloating.


I want to gloat.

I'm going to gloat.


This issue is going my way.

Yes it is two steps forward and one step back but it is only a matter time before all gay discrimination is a thing of the past.

Maybe a long time.

Maybe I won't see it in my lifetime.

But is IS a sure thing.

Equality IS inevitable!


I am heartened there are so many pro-equality response in this thread.

You ladies are raising tomorrows voters.

Frankly it feels a little like being let out of a jail cell.


Thank you and a big hug all you supporters of equality.

Amen to that Kenny!!

and hugs right back at you too!!

 

[PilsnPinkysMom]

Date: 6/30/2010 6:43:51 PM
Author: kenny
You know, there is nothing in PS rules about gloating.


I want to gloat.

I''m going to gloat.


This issue is going my way.

Yes it is two steps forward and one step back but it is only a matter time before all gay discrimination is a thing of the past.

Maybe a long time.

Maybe I won''t see it in my lifetime.

But is IS a sure thing.

Equality IS inevitable!


I am heartened there are so many pro-equality response in this thread.

You ladies are raising tomorrows voters.

Frankly it feels a little like being let out of a jail cell.


Thank you and a big hug all you supporters of equality.

 

[bee*]

I was just talking to my mother about this thread. All she said was that it''s funny how much your opinion can change when the situation is personal to you. My mother wouldn''t have been homophobic but she probably wouldn''t have been the biggest advocate of adoption by gay couples. She has done a complete 180 degree turn now after my sister came out as gay. Now my mother would be the one of the biggest supporters of it and she can''t believe that she ever thought differently.

 

[packrat]

Kenny! Move here to Iowa by ME! You can marry legally here. I''m pretty sure it''s legal to be left handed here too. hehehehe. We''re progressive here in the Corn State you know. I dunno about being gay AND left handed tho. That might be just a little *too* outrageous for us fancy pants hipsters.

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:01:28 PM
Author: dragonfly411

Date: 6/30/2010 2:59:57 PM
Author: RaiKai

Date: 6/30/2010 2:51:27 PM

Author: NovemberBride

Date: 6/30/2010 2:11:53 PM


Author: dragonfly411

Date: 6/29/2010 11:51:27 PM



Author: thing2of2

Date: 6/29/2010 11:20:41 PM




Author: dragonfly411




apparently I missed a lot.





I do think that it's OK for people to not be ok on it, based on moral differences between people.





I personally don't agree with gay/lesbianism mainly because of laws of nature more than anything. That being said, I also agree you can't help who you love, and it's not for me to dictate. I have gay friends... I have lesbian friends. I certainly would much rather have a gay/lesbian couple who are responsible and caring people raise a child over somone who might abuse, kill, neglect or hurt their child. I'd rather see them over people who aren't financially stable. I'd prefer to see them to single parents who are single due to divorce even if that sounds harsh. I think children being able to see loving, compatible relationships is so so important to their future relationships.

Do all your gay and lesbian friends know you 'don't agree with gay/lesbianism'?

Yes they do actually. I don't mean it in an insulting manner... for me.. it just doesn't make a lot of sense.. and I don't fully understand it. I am not out to control who they are or what they do though, but I make it clear that I don't want to be hit on (in the case of lesbian friends) or discuss how good looking a guy is with a gay friend. I have several very good friends who are gay and or lesbian and to each their own, I can respect them without agreeing with their sexual preference. They aren't straight... I'm not gay. I don't think being gay makes natural sense. That's just how I think and feel. I don't dislike them as people, I don't lack in any kind of respect for them as individuals.




Thing 2 you are awfully casual about throwing around the term ignorant, along with bigot. I have seen it several times from you and I am starting to be slightly offended by it. If someone doesn't agree with you then they are ignorant or they are a bigot. I think that is a bit closed minded.




I stated my thoughts, and it's how I feel. You don't have to agree with me. I really don't care whether you do or not. But I would appreciate it if you would refrain from implying that I am ignorant as you did in the post before you asked this question.

Seriously Dragonfly, you feel the need to inform all of your lesbian friends that you don't want to be hit on by them? Do you also inform all of your straight male friends of the same thing? Why on earth would you assume that just because they are attracted to females that they would be attracted to you? I can tell you that I have a lot of lesbian friends and a lot of straight male friends, and I have had a lot more of the straight males hit on me than the lesbians.



This kind of statement just sounds so ignorant to me. Gay men and women don't make a move on everyone they know anymore than straight people do. In fact, due to homophobia and fears for their physical safety, the gay people I know are extremely unlikely to hit on someone unless they no for a fact that the other person is gay as well. Just like us straight folks, they don't want to be embarrassed or rejected when they get up the courage to hit on someone.



Rant over.

Rant further adopted.


Dragonfly, I wonder how much your friends know about your thoughts about their orientation. My guess is not as much as you have written here. Or they likely would have found new friends.


I have been hit on by a couple lesbians (and actually propositioned). I certainly took no offense to it all (though I made it clear I was not interested!). Nor do think for one iota I must be attractive to all lesbians as a result of the fact that I have a vagina.

I've had far more straight males hit on me that I wish had not, than I ever have females.

I am wrong for doing the same?

Everyone has the right to express his opinion. If someone does not accept some behaviors, or doesn't understand them and honestly says about it, it does not necessarily make him "a bigot". She is honest about it.

I firmly believe that homosexuality is a genetic trait, not "a choice". Stifling it can only cause negative consequences - anger, suicide, bitterness... I know people who came out of the closet when they were in their mid-ages (perhaps because the political climate has changed) and it was very hard on their wives.

The fact that we do not understand why people are attracted to same sex or opposite sex does not mean it is a choice. If you look around, there are more gays in some families and none in others. One day science, of course, will find an answer to it, although it may take a while. But we have fallen so far behind in our scientific research over the last 10 years that of course, it will probably be long before we get some answers. And even then there may be some people who won't believe hard facts, but at least the rest of us could have a better understanding of this problem.

The fact that it is genetic, by the way, dispels, in my eyes, some insidious fears that kids raised by gays will turn out gay (I have heard it many times) - if they carry the gene, they might, but if they don't, they will not. It is not a learned behavior.

And Kenny - about spanking a leftie. As you know, corporeal punishment was allowed in Southern schools even not so long ago. A lady I know told me about her cousin who had Tourrette's disorder and was constantly grimacing. Well, the teachers did not understand it and he was constantly spanked or made stand in the corner. It was so bad that he finally left the school at 17 and said, no more education for me! The teachers were just unaware that grimacing was Tourrette's, not "bad behavior", and had a biologic reason for it! Their ignorance had totally ruined the life of a good kid. Same with homosexuality - I think it is ignorance and lack of knowledge that ruins lives of fine women and men.

 

[yssie]

Date: 6/30/2010 7:32:04 PM
Author: crasru

Everyone has the right to express his opinion. If someone does not accept some behaviors, or doesn't understand them and honestly says about it, it does not necessarily make him 'a bigot'. She is honest about it.

I firmly believe that homosexuality is a genetic trait, not 'a choice'. Stifling it can only cause negative consequences - anger, suicide, bitterness... I know people who came out of the closet when they were in their mid-ages (perhaps because the political climate has changed) and it was very hard on their wives.

The fact that we do not understand why people are attracted to same sex or opposite sex does not mean it is a choice. If you look around, there are more gays in some families and none in others. One day science, of course, will find an answer to it, although it may take a while. But we have fallen so far behind in our scientific research over the last 10 years that of course, it will probably be long before we get some answers. And even then there may be some people who won't believe hard facts, but at least the rest of us could have a better understanding of this problem.

The fact that it is genetic, by the way, dispels, in my eyes, some insidious fears that kids raised by gays will turn out gay (I have heard it many times) - if they carry the gene, they might, but if they don't, they will not. It is not a learned behavior.

And THAT is the key issue here, in my opinion.

Those who believe homosexuality is a trait, not a choice, and as such have no opinion on it one way or another
Those who believe homosexuality is a choice, and disagree with others making that choice
Those who believe homosexuality is a choice, and have no issue with it
Those who believe homosexuality is a trait and 'disagree' with it - these people are the definition of bigots, in the same way as those who 'disagree' with people of other races.

 

[kenny]

Date: 6/30/2010 7:15:48 PM
Author: packrat
Kenny! Move here to Iowa by ME! You can marry legally here. I''m pretty sure it''s legal to be left handed here too. hehehehe. We''re progressive here in the Corn State you know. I dunno about being gay AND left handed tho. That might be just a little *too* outrageous for us fancy pants hipsters.

But is the Corn State ready for an Octavia?
That is the ultimate test.

 

[iluvcarats]

We give more rights and respect to illegal aliens than we do to gay, tax paying American citizens.

If you are a tax paying US citizen you deserve equal rights.
No matter your race, gender, religion, sexual orientation or anything else.
Period.

 

[kenny]

Crasru, spanking is not always bad.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Date: 6/30/2010 7:48:23 PM
Author: iluvcarats
We give more rights and respect to illegal aliens than we do to gay, tax paying American citizens.

If you are a tax paying US citizen you deserve equal rights.

No matter your race, gender, religion, sexual orientation or anything else.

Period.

BIG FAT FREAKING DITTO!!!!

And I want to thank Kenny and ImDanny for participating in this thread in a rational and level-headed manner. I realize you both face challenges due to unkind and unfair judgment from society. You''re both welcome to move to Massachusetts/Boston any time. Swimmer and I will take you out and show you around town.

 

[packrat]

Date: 6/30/2010 7:42:13 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 6/30/2010 7:15:48 PM

Author: packrat

Kenny! Move here to Iowa by ME! You can marry legally here. I''m pretty sure it''s legal to be left handed here too. hehehehe. We''re progressive here in the Corn State you know. I dunno about being gay AND left handed tho. That might be just a little *too* outrageous for us fancy pants hipsters.

But is the Corn State ready for an Octavia?

That is the ultimate test.

YES! Think how sparkly it will be under our big blue skies and no smog to obscure it!

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Date: 6/30/2010 7:50:49 PM
Author: kenny
Crasru, spanking is not always bad.

Naughty naughty Kenny...I like it

 

[House Cat]

Kenny,

I want to thank you, this entire thread has been educating.

Two days ago, I was going to respond to you and tell you that I thought your views were a bit jaded, especially the view that it would take 100 years for stigma to become nonexisitent. My defense was, I pick up my teens from high school and I see many gay teens holding hands or kissing, and the other kids don''t even react. It is a part of their culture! The kids are accepting! I''ve had many conversations with MY kids, their belief is that you are born gay, just as you are born heterosexual. They also don''t really think gay is an issue. It just IS.

These kids are our future voters, teachers, police officers, politicians.

You and I are both in California. I believe our attitudes in this state are a bit more progressive although the vote was robbed. Then again, my little sister (age 1 lives in a small town in Oklahoma and she has many gay friends. Once again, it isn''t an issue to those kids either.


But then, I see the firestorm that ensued on this forum. I understand why you wouldn''t want a child to have to fight this fight. But, I would like to throw out there that this is a noble fight. What might be the child''s alternative? To fight the effects of living with an abusive parent? To fight sexual abuse or physical abuse from group homes and most likely fail? To fight PTSD and other disorders of the mind due to the abuse they''ve experienced in the foster system? I think fighting for equal rights is a much better alternative. I think living with two incredibly caring parents (regardless of sex) is a gift.

There are many male+female families out there that have dysfunction. Actually, I haven''t seen a single family without it. A certain degree of dysfunction actually builds character..makes us compassionate, makes us who we are! I''ve seen children have to fight for a lot in their lives regardless of their parent''s sexual orientation. One thing I''ve never seen...a child being raised by a gay couple who wasn''t completely cherished.