adoption by gay couples?

[dragonfly411]

Let''s use a different example. If you were to come to me and say " I LOVE eggplant. Eggplant is the best food on earth" I could completely disagree with how you feel, and what you think about that, but still like you as a person, and completely respect you.

Another example. You could think a man is THE single most attractive man on earth... he is hands down the only person you''d want to be with. Would I have a lack of respect for you if I disagreed with your taste? If I thought the man was ugly?

Yet another example. You could consider PETA to be your life calling. You could say to me " I work for PETA.. it is my life.. it is who I am and what I do, and I feel that they are correct in their thought and belief". Do I magically have to agree with that to like you, and respect you as a person?


Same thing in my opinion. It is a thought, a feeling, a response evoked by a positive reaction hormonally or mentally or emotionally that has a large presence to you and is a major part of who you are and what you do (though maybe not the eggplant part). So I am wrong for disagreeing with those things? You don''t choose whether you are attracted to the man, but do I respect you less for liking the man when I don''t find him remotely interesting?

 

[dragonfly411]

Date: 6/30/2010 2:59:57 PM
Author: RaiKai

Date: 6/30/2010 2:51:27 PM

Author: NovemberBride

Date: 6/30/2010 2:11:53 PM


Author: dragonfly411

Date: 6/29/2010 11:51:27 PM



Author: thing2of2

Date: 6/29/2010 11:20:41 PM




Author: dragonfly411




apparently I missed a lot.





I do think that it''s OK for people to not be ok on it, based on moral differences between people.





I personally don''t agree with gay/lesbianism mainly because of laws of nature more than anything. That being said, I also agree you can''t help who you love, and it''s not for me to dictate. I have gay friends... I have lesbian friends. I certainly would much rather have a gay/lesbian couple who are responsible and caring people raise a child over somone who might abuse, kill, neglect or hurt their child. I''d rather see them over people who aren''t financially stable. I''d prefer to see them to single parents who are single due to divorce even if that sounds harsh. I think children being able to see loving, compatible relationships is so so important to their future relationships.

Do all your gay and lesbian friends know you ''don''t agree with gay/lesbianism''?

Yes they do actually. I don''t mean it in an insulting manner... for me.. it just doesn''t make a lot of sense.. and I don''t fully understand it. I am not out to control who they are or what they do though, but I make it clear that I don''t want to be hit on (in the case of lesbian friends) or discuss how good looking a guy is with a gay friend. I have several very good friends who are gay and or lesbian and to each their own, I can respect them without agreeing with their sexual preference. They aren''t straight... I''m not gay. I don''t think being gay makes natural sense. That''s just how I think and feel. I don''t dislike them as people, I don''t lack in any kind of respect for them as individuals.




Thing 2 you are awfully casual about throwing around the term ignorant, along with bigot. I have seen it several times from you and I am starting to be slightly offended by it. If someone doesn''t agree with you then they are ignorant or they are a bigot. I think that is a bit closed minded.




I stated my thoughts, and it''s how I feel. You don''t have to agree with me. I really don''t care whether you do or not. But I would appreciate it if you would refrain from implying that I am ignorant as you did in the post before you asked this question.

Seriously Dragonfly, you feel the need to inform all of your lesbian friends that you don''t want to be hit on by them? Do you also inform all of your straight male friends of the same thing? Why on earth would you assume that just because they are attracted to females that they would be attracted to you? I can tell you that I have a lot of lesbian friends and a lot of straight male friends, and I have had a lot more of the straight males hit on me than the lesbians.



This kind of statement just sounds so ignorant to me. Gay men and women don''t make a move on everyone they know anymore than straight people do. In fact, due to homophobia and fears for their physical safety, the gay people I know are extremely unlikely to hit on someone unless they no for a fact that the other person is gay as well. Just like us straight folks, they don''t want to be embarrassed or rejected when they get up the courage to hit on someone.



Rant over.

Rant further adopted.


Dragonfly, I wonder how much your friends know about your thoughts about their orientation. My guess is not as much as you have written here. Or they likely would have found new friends.


I have been hit on by a couple lesbians (and actually propositioned). I certainly took no offense to it all (though I made it clear I was not interested!). Nor do think for one iota I must be attractive to all lesbians as a result of the fact that I have a vagina.

I''ve had far more straight males hit on me that I wish had not, than I ever have females.

I am wrong for doing the same?

 

[kama_s]

Date: 6/30/2010 2:11:53 PM
Author: dragonfly411

Yes they do actually. I don''t mean it in an insulting manner... for me.. it just doesn''t make a lot of sense.. and I don''t fully understand it. I am not out to control who they are or what they do though, but I make it clear that I don''t want to be hit on (in the case of lesbian friends) or discuss how good looking a guy is with a gay friend. I have several very good friends who are gay and or lesbian and to each their own, I can respect them without agreeing with their sexual preference. They aren''t straight... I''m not gay. I don''t think being gay makes natural sense. That''s just how I think and feel. I don''t dislike them as people, I don''t lack in any kind of respect for them as individuals.

Thing 2 you are awfully casual about throwing around the term ignorant, along with bigot. I have seen it several times from you and I am starting to be slightly offended by it. If someone doesn''t agree with you then they are ignorant or they are a bigot. I think that is a bit closed minded.

I stated my thoughts, and it''s how I feel. You don''t have to agree with me. I really don''t care whether you do or not. But I would appreciate it if you would refrain from implying that I am ignorant as you did in the post before you asked this question.

If you have such a strong opinion without full understanding on the subject, then yes, the correct definition would indeed by ignorant. Sounds like you''re ignorant of the word ignorant!

 

[kama_s]

Date: 6/30/2010 1:18:40 PM
Author: Laila619
Obviously, gay adoption is better than having a child languish in an orphanage, or be mistreated by his bio parents.

But say there were two choices for said child: two equally stable and loving couples who were wanting to adopt him, one gay and one hetero. Would everyone agree in that instance that the hetero couple is best for the child?

But this is only an issue BECAUSE of the stigma attached to homosexual parents. In utopian terms, there would be no difference between the two options.

If we get rid of the stigma, we get rid of any bias.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 6/30/2010 2:11:53 PM
Author: dragonfly411

Date: 6/29/2010 11:51:27 PM

Author: thing2of2

Date: 6/29/2010 11:20:41 PM
Author: dragonfly411
apparently I missed a lot.

I do think that it''s OK for people to not be ok on it, based on moral differences between people.

I personally don''t agree with gay/lesbianism mainly because of laws of nature more than anything. That being said, I also agree you can''t help who you love, and it''s not for me to dictate. I have gay friends... I have lesbian friends. I certainly would much rather have a gay/lesbian couple who are responsible and caring people raise a child over somone who might abuse, kill, neglect or hurt their child. I''d rather see them over people who aren''t financially stable. I''d prefer to see them to single parents who are single due to divorce even if that sounds harsh. I think children being able to see loving, compatible relationships is so so important to their future relationships.

Do all your gay and lesbian friends know you ''don''t agree with gay/lesbianism''?

Yes they do actually. I don''t mean it in an insulting manner... for me.. it just doesn''t make a lot of sense.. and I don''t fully understand it. I am not out to control who they are or what they do though, but I make it clear that I don''t want to be hit on (in the case of lesbian friends) or discuss how good looking a guy is with a gay friend. I have several very good friends who are gay and or lesbian and to each their own, I can respect them without agreeing with their sexual preference. They aren''t straight... I''m not gay. I don''t think being gay makes natural sense. That''s just how I think and feel. I don''t dislike them as people, I don''t lack in any kind of respect for them as individuals.

Thing 2 you are awfully casual about throwing around the term ignorant, along with bigot. I have seen it several times from you and I am starting to be slightly offended by it. If someone doesn''t agree with you then they are ignorant or they are a bigot. I think that is a bit closed minded.

I stated my thoughts, and it''s how I feel. You don''t have to agree with me. I really don''t care whether you do or not. But I would appreciate it if you would refrain from implying that I am ignorant as you did in the post before you asked this question.

I''m not calling you an ignorant bigot because you disagree with me-I''m calling you ignorant and bigoted because what you are stating is both ignorant and bigoted. Feel free to be offended by that.

C-tek, NovemberBride and TheBigT covered everything else for me so I can save my breath on explaining why what you''re saying is bigoted and/or ignorant.

 

[stephbolt]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:00:15 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Let''s use a different example. If you were to come to me and say '' I LOVE eggplant. Eggplant is the best food on earth'' I could completely disagree with how you feel, and what you think about that, but still like you as a person, and completely respect you.

Another example. You could think a man is THE single most attractive man on earth... he is hands down the only person you''d want to be with. Would I have a lack of respect for you if I disagreed with your taste? If I thought the man was ugly?

Yet another example. You could consider PETA to be your life calling. You could say to me '' I work for PETA.. it is my life.. it is who I am and what I do, and I feel that they are correct in their thought and belief''. Do I magically have to agree with that to like you, and respect you as a person?


Same thing in my opinion. It is a thought, a feeling, a response evoked by a positive reaction hormonally or mentally or emotionally that has a large presence to you and is a major part of who you are and what you do (though maybe not the eggplant part). So I am wrong for disagreeing with those things? You don''t choose whether you are attracted to the man, but do I respect you less for liking the man when I don''t find him remotely interesting?

Dragonfly, none of these examples can be compared to being homosexual. None of them are intrinsic qualities of the individual. More comparable examples, to me, would be if you said you didn''t agree with having curly hair, or being tall, or being of a different race. Would you make any claims like that? As Kenny said, being gay isn''t a "choice." I really want to understand where you are coming from that you feel it''s a quality that can be agreed or disagreed with.

 

[Jennifer W]

Date: 6/30/2010 2:51:45 PM
Author: kenny
I didn''t choose to be gay.

How absurd.

Why would anyone choose to be in a hated group?


I was different since my earliest memories.

I lived in confusion and self-hate till I had my first experience at age 23.

Even today I''m positive that the damage from hate is not fully reversed.

Kenny, are you really in a hated group? Is that how it feels?

I know PS isn''t representative, but if you look back over this thread and other similar discussions, there isn''t a lot of hate on show. One or two people may be negative (and that may or may not indicate a deeper hatred, I can''t say). Do you think that gay people are generally hated? Or is it by a small minority who would hate someone for something no matter what?

The people who will care for my daughter if anything should happen to me and DH are a gay couple. Well, there are two couples who we are close with and we''ve agreed that which ever couple can actually commit to looking after her at that time in their lives will do it - with the involvement and support of the other. I am far more worried about their ages than their sexuality (C is quite a bit older than me and I''d want someone who was going to be around for a long time). It never crossed my mind that C and her partner were hated. That''s a very strong word.

Jen

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:01:28 PM
Author: dragonfly411

Date: 6/30/2010 2:59:57 PM

Author: RaiKai

Date: 6/30/2010 2:51:27 PM


Author: NovemberBride

Date: 6/30/2010 2:11:53 PM



Author: dragonfly411

Date: 6/29/2010 11:51:27 PM




Author: thing2of2

Date: 6/29/2010 11:20:41 PM





Author: dragonfly411





apparently I missed a lot.






I do think that it's OK for people to not be ok on it, based on moral differences between people.






I personally don't agree with gay/lesbianism mainly because of laws of nature more than anything. That being said, I also agree you can't help who you love, and it's not for me to dictate. I have gay friends... I have lesbian friends. I certainly would much rather have a gay/lesbian couple who are responsible and caring people raise a child over somone who might abuse, kill, neglect or hurt their child. I'd rather see them over people who aren't financially stable. I'd prefer to see them to single parents who are single due to divorce even if that sounds harsh. I think children being able to see loving, compatible relationships is so so important to their future relationships.

Do all your gay and lesbian friends know you 'don't agree with gay/lesbianism'?

Yes they do actually. I don't mean it in an insulting manner... for me.. it just doesn't make a lot of sense.. and I don't fully understand it. I am not out to control who they are or what they do though, but I make it clear that I don't want to be hit on (in the case of lesbian friends) or discuss how good looking a guy is with a gay friend. I have several very good friends who are gay and or lesbian and to each their own, I can respect them without agreeing with their sexual preference. They aren't straight... I'm not gay. I don't think being gay makes natural sense. That's just how I think and feel. I don't dislike them as people, I don't lack in any kind of respect for them as individuals.





Thing 2 you are awfully casual about throwing around the term ignorant, along with bigot. I have seen it several times from you and I am starting to be slightly offended by it. If someone doesn't agree with you then they are ignorant or they are a bigot. I think that is a bit closed minded.





I stated my thoughts, and it's how I feel. You don't have to agree with me. I really don't care whether you do or not. But I would appreciate it if you would refrain from implying that I am ignorant as you did in the post before you asked this question.

Seriously Dragonfly, you feel the need to inform all of your lesbian friends that you don't want to be hit on by them? Do you also inform all of your straight male friends of the same thing? Why on earth would you assume that just because they are attracted to females that they would be attracted to you? I can tell you that I have a lot of lesbian friends and a lot of straight male friends, and I have had a lot more of the straight males hit on me than the lesbians.




This kind of statement just sounds so ignorant to me. Gay men and women don't make a move on everyone they know anymore than straight people do. In fact, due to homophobia and fears for their physical safety, the gay people I know are extremely unlikely to hit on someone unless they no for a fact that the other person is gay as well. Just like us straight folks, they don't want to be embarrassed or rejected when they get up the courage to hit on someone.




Rant over.

Rant further adopted.



Dragonfly, I wonder how much your friends know about your thoughts about their orientation. My guess is not as much as you have written here. Or they likely would have found new friends.



I have been hit on by a couple lesbians (and actually propositioned). I certainly took no offense to it all (though I made it clear I was not interested!). Nor do think for one iota I must be attractive to all lesbians as a result of the fact that I have a vagina.

I've had far more straight males hit on me that I wish had not, than I ever have females.

I am wrong for doing the same?

I did NOT tell all my gay friends that they were not to hit on me. I do not assume they must ALL want me as I am female.

Totally different situations.

These were situations that came up where said gay woman hit on me in specific situations (i.e. in a bar). I just told them I was flattered, but not interested. And honestly it was because I was not attracted to THEM in particular. That did not mean I was not flattered by it! If I had found them attractive, I might have flirted back with them a bit more (but let them know I was straight).

No, I am not gay, and I am very happily married to a man but I certainly don't identify myself as on the extreme heterosexual side of the Kinsey scale. I do find other women attractive. I do find other men attractive. I find sexuality attractive, period. Both women and men pop up in fantasies even if I do not identify myself as a lesbian and would not want a relationship with a woman.

Just as I would tell a straight man hitting on me if I was not INTERESTED in them. I also do not tell all straight men not to hit on me as I would never be interested.

I've flirted with gay men before. Certainly they took no offense to it and let me know they were not interested in me in that way.

 

[kenny]

I''ve been hit on by women.
I don''t punch them in the face or get my panties in a wad.

I register the compliment and just do not return the interest.
That''s it.

If you are a straight woman and a lesbian hit on you just pretend she is a straight man.
It''s not an insult.
It''s a compliment.
You just got told you are attractive in some way.
That''s nice.

Just react to the lesbian as you''d react to a straight man.
If the straight man or the lesbian doesn''t take the hint you move to technique B, whatever that is.

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 6/30/2010 1:18:40 PM
Author: Laila619
Obviously, gay adoption is better than having a child languish in an orphanage, or be mistreated by his bio parents.

But say there were two choices for said child: two equally stable and loving couples who were wanting to adopt him, one gay and one hetero. Would everyone agree in that instance that the hetero couple is best for the child?

The sad reality is that if you can''t reproduce on your own (this includes gays obviously), you''re subject to all sorts of hoops and other crap to attain a child another way. A drugged out woman on crack and food stamps can pop out a kid any time she wants, but a loving and committed couple who is infertile and wants to adopt has to endure all sorts of extensive interviews, intrusive home studies, paperwork, etc. It''s total BS but that''s the way it is. Never mind that they are way more qualified and stable than the crack mom, but you don''t see her having to jump through hoops or be pre-approved.

No, I would never agree with you that given the situation you described that it would always be better for the child to go to a hetero couple.

A side note: Being on food stamps makes you a bad or unqualified parent? Stuff happens and sometimes people need a little extra help getting food for themselves and the people they take care of. Certainly doesn''t make them inept at raising a child.

 

[monarch64]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:17:43 PM
Author: Clairitek

Date: 6/30/2010 1:18:40 PM
Author: Laila619
Obviously, gay adoption is better than having a child languish in an orphanage, or be mistreated by his bio parents.

But say there were two choices for said child: two equally stable and loving couples who were wanting to adopt him, one gay and one hetero. Would everyone agree in that instance that the hetero couple is best for the child?

The sad reality is that if you can''t reproduce on your own (this includes gays obviously), you''re subject to all sorts of hoops and other crap to attain a child another way. A drugged out woman on crack and food stamps can pop out a kid any time she wants, but a loving and committed couple who is infertile and wants to adopt has to endure all sorts of extensive interviews, intrusive home studies, paperwork, etc. It''s total BS but that''s the way it is. Never mind that they are way more qualified and stable than the crack mom, but you don''t see her having to jump through hoops or be pre-approved.

No, I would never agree with you that given the situation you described that it would always be better for the child to go to a hetero couple.

A side note: Being on food stamps makes you a bad or unqualified parent? Stuff happens and sometimes people need a little extra help getting food for themselves and the people they take care of. Certainly doesn''t make them inept at raising a child.

Yeah, I thought that was a little harsh as well. Government funded programs to assist the poor with basic needs are not something to be looked down upon, especially in our current struggling economy, and just because someone is having a tough time making ends meet doesn''t mean they can''t be a good parent. I do agree, Laila, that it doesn''t seem fair sometimes that people who do not truly want children seem to end up with them while others who want nothing more than to be parents but cannot physically make it happen have to endure endless rounds of screening.

 

[somethingshiny]

BIH~ Um...what???

Again, this thread was about ADOPTION, not MARRIAGE and not interracial marriage. I''ve studied the bible for quite some time and I think you''re using it to specifically back your views instead of trying to UNDERSTAND the will and love of God.


df~ I don''t think you''re a bad person or ignorant. I don''t understand some of your thought processes though. I make it known to any straight male who shows an interest that I''m not interested. I have been hit on by women to which I just reply "thanks." If I''m there with my DH, they see him, they know I''m straight but they still felt like they could say I look beautiful or whatever. I don''t find it threatening in any way. I feel much more threatened by a straight male hitting on me while I''m sitting next to DH. I''m sure it''s some sort of sexism, but I think a man who has the balls to hit on you in front of your SO is capable of worse than a woman who likes your hair.

As far as Laila''s question, (this was the reason I revisited this thread because I had the same question) I will honestly say that given the choice, I would choose for a straight loving couple to be the parents of my child. Next would be the gay loving couple, followed by the loving older couple, and lastly by the single loving person. I hadn''t thought about this before now but these are my initial reactions. I do believe in the "ideal" family so that would be my first choice. I believe in the "ideal" family because that is what my family strives to be. We are in fact a straight loving couple so that is what I would want for my children. If that wasn''t an option, I believe that a loving gay couple is the next best thing. Every person believes that the way they live is the best way, that''s why they make the choices they do. I don''t think it makes a person bigoted to feel this way.

 

[kenny]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:11:05 PM
Author: Jennifer W
Kenny, are you really in a hated group? Is that how it feels?

Yes, people in the privacy of the voting booth have made sure I am not allowed to get married, all because of how I was born.
If THAT ain't hate . . .

Imagine if for centuries religions taught that being left-handed was a sin.
After all, it's not normal.
Normal people are right handed.
Parents spank the little child, yank the pencil out of the left hand and put it into the right hand, again and again and again.
Well, yeah the kid is going to be ashamed of his natural impulse and work hard to be right handed as best he can, but isn't this tragic?

Then, finally society gets its head out of the sand and starts to realize some people are just born left handed.

It's not good or bad; it just is.
It ain't the devil and it ain't immoral.
Normal is just a number, not a value judgement.
Being left handed IS NORMAL for left handed people.

But unfortunately left handedness has been taught as being immoral for centuries and lots of folks just blindly cling to the past in the name of morality like they were taught in Sunday School.
In a way it is not their fault.
This stuff gets ingrained into little minds while they are being wired.
It becomes part of the wiring and rational thinking on such subjects are prevented by the wiring.

Now switch left handedness for gay and you will understand.
I wish some Congressperson would introduce a bill to ban left handed people from getting married.
Equally absurd.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:27:01 PM
Author: somethingshiny
BIH~ Um...what???


Again, this thread was about ADOPTION, not MARRIAGE and not interracial marriage. I've studied the bible for quite some time and I think you're using it to specifically back your views instead of trying to UNDERSTAND the will and love of God.

df~ I don't think you're a bad person or ignorant. I don't understand some of your thought processes though. I make it known to any straight male who shows an interest that I'm not interested. I have been hit on by women to which I just reply 'thanks.' If I'm there with my DH, they see him, they know I'm straight but they still felt like they could say I look beautiful or whatever. I don't find it threatening in any way. I feel much more threatened by a straight male hitting on me while I'm sitting next to DH. I'm sure it's some sort of sexism, but I think a man who has the balls to hit on you in front of your SO is capable of worse than a woman who likes your hair.


As far as Laila's question, (this was the reason I revisited this thread because I had the same question) I will honestly say that given the choice, I would choose for a straight loving couple to be the parents of my child. Next would be the gay loving couple, followed by the loving older couple, and lastly by the single loving person. I hadn't thought about this before now but these are my initial reactions. I do believe in the 'ideal' family so that would be my first choice. I believe in the 'ideal' family because that is what my family strives to be. We are in fact a straight loving couple so that is what I would want for my children. If that wasn't an option, I believe that a loving gay couple is the next best thing. Every person believes that the way they live is the best way, that's why they make the choices they do. I don't think it makes a person bigoted to feel this way.

I wasn't trying to make it about interracial marriage. I posted asking a question about how the 2 were different if the arguments were the same, both in terms of adoption and marriage, and was asked by a number of people to clarify. As to the marriage vs adoption, if the issue is the basic wrongness of homosexuality, these cover it. Specifically statement 6 which is the same argument given by most of the dissenters in this thread; namely, that since they can't produce "viable" offspring they are not qualified to be parents.

As for the biblical, my uncle is a Jesuit and he was the one who mentioned the translation error to me.

 

[Jennifer W]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:28:32 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 6/30/2010 3:11:05 PM

Author: Jennifer W

Kenny, are you really in a hated group? Is that how it feels?

Yes, people in the privacy of the voting booth have made sure I am not allowed to get married, all because of how I was born.

If THAT ain''t hate . . .


Imagine if for centuries religions taught that being left-handed was a sin.

After all, it''s not normal.

Normal people are right handed.

Parents spank the little child, yank the pencil out of the left hand and put it into the right hand.

Well, yeah the kid is going to be ashamed of his natural impulse to be right handed as best he can, but isn''t this tragic?


Then, finally society gets its head out of the sand and starts to realize some people are just born left handed.


It''s not good or bad; it just is.

It ain''t the devil and it ain''t immoral.

Normal is just a number, not a value judgement.

Being left handed IS NORMAL for left handed people.


But unfortunately left handedness has been taught as being immoral for centuries and lots of folks just cling to the past in the name of morality.

In a way it is not their fault.

This stuff gets ingrained into little minds while they are being wired.


Now switch left handedness for gay and you will understand.

OK. I won''t say I get it totally, because I''m not living with it but I do understand what you''re saying. Do you ever think about moving? To somewhere people have not voted that way? Tell me to mind my own business, if you prefer.

Your point about wiring little minds is interesting. Maybe it''s the responsibility of this generation of parents to change the wiring so that our kids would never be having this discussion.
Jen

 

[CNOS128]

I do know people who were forced to write with their right hands because their teachers thought it was "proper." I think it''s terribly cruel. My lefty friends who were forced to be righties still speak about penmanship class in elementary school as a traumatic time.

(But I still warn them that I''m a righty and they shouldn''t hit on me...

)



It''s a good analogy, Kenny. Hopefully one day soon this won''t even have to be a discussion.

 

[kenny]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:34:46 PM
Author: Jennifer W
Do you ever think about moving? To somewhere people have not voted that way?

Valid suggestion, but this is not about me.
It is about the entire country and the world.
People in Iran are being hanged for being gay.

 

[somethingshiny]

I believe this is the most frustrated I''ve ever felt on PS.

Everyone has an opinion on this subject and everyone is entitled to it without being forced into the "other side." I don''t want or try to change people''s beliefs, especially when it comes to moral rights and wrongs. But, I absolutely despise it when people use Christianity as a reason to hate anyone. Being Christian isn''t about being right. It''s about being forgiven and being loved and understanding that those are the two most important things.

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:34:46 PM
Author: Jennifer W

Date: 6/30/2010 3:28:32 PM

Author: kenny

Date: 6/30/2010 3:11:05 PM


Author: Jennifer W


Kenny, are you really in a hated group? Is that how it feels?

Yes, people in the privacy of the voting booth have made sure I am not allowed to get married, all because of how I was born.


If THAT ain't hate . . .



Imagine if for centuries religions taught that being left-handed was a sin.


After all, it's not normal.


Normal people are right handed.


Parents spank the little child, yank the pencil out of the left hand and put it into the right hand.


Well, yeah the kid is going to be ashamed of his natural impulse to be right handed as best he can, but isn't this tragic?



Then, finally society gets its head out of the sand and starts to realize some people are just born left handed.



It's not good or bad; it just is.


It ain't the devil and it ain't immoral.


Normal is just a number, not a value judgement.


Being left handed IS NORMAL for left handed people.



But unfortunately left handedness has been taught as being immoral for centuries and lots of folks just cling to the past in the name of morality.


In a way it is not their fault.


This stuff gets ingrained into little minds while they are being wired.



Now switch left handedness for gay and you will understand.

OK. I won't say I get it totally, because I'm not living with it but I do understand what you're saying. Do you ever think about moving? To somewhere people have not voted that way? Tell me to mind my own business, if you prefer.

Your point about wiring little minds is interesting. Maybe it's the responsibility of this generation of parents to change the wiring so that our kids would never be having this discussion.

Jen

In the past, left-handed writers WERE taught that! My assistant, and my stepfather, both endured years in school of being forced to write with their right-hands, and having their parents told they wrote poorly with their "right hand" and so on. Bizarre.
And, times have changed as more people became aware of how stupid that attitude against left-handedness was! Policies changed. Attitudes changed.


Anyway, I agree with Jen - have you considered moving somewhere where people have NOT voted that way? Because certainly gay couples are legally able to marry in other places in the world, including where I live. I do not for one instant doubt your observations on the environment you live in, but that does not mean it is the case across the world.

 

[Jennifer W]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:39:05 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 6/30/2010 3:34:46 PM

Author: Jennifer W

Do you ever think about moving? To somewhere people have not voted that way?

Valid suggestion, but this is not about me.

It is about the entire country and the world.

People in Iran are being hanged for being gay.

I know. These poor, poor people. A friend of mine from law school told me recently that he has lost touch with an Iranian friend and he fears for his life. This young man was in Scotland as an exchange student for a year and he was openly gay when he lived here - now he''s gone back and after some very worrying messages, apparently vanished. I know he feared he would be arrested. I just hope we''re wrong.

I''m going to cling to my (possibly naive) belief that the whole world is not anti-gay and that there are safer, more tolerant parts. If my children are gay, I''m going to have to hope that we live in one such part.

Jen

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 6/30/2010 3:39:05 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 6/30/2010 3:34:46 PM

Author: Jennifer W

Do you ever think about moving? To somewhere people have not voted that way?

Valid suggestion, but this is not about me.

It is about the entire country and the world.

People in Iran are being hanged for being gay.

People in Iran get hanged for not being gay too. Women get stoned for suspicions of flirting or adultery and so on. Not exactly a model of tolerance by any stretch of the imagination.

I recognize the world needs to change.

We have to start somewhere.

 

[Puppmom]

I haven''t read this entire thread but there''s one thing in particular I find really pathetic. I''ve talked to many people who say they don''t *care* if gay couples marry or have/adopt children. BUT, like Kenny said, in the privacy of a voting booth, they''ve admitted they would still vote against it! I think that''s terribly terribly sad.

I don''t know any gay couples who have adopted but I do know several who have had children via sperm donation and/or surrogate. Unfortunately, two of the relationships ended poorly and the biological parent hasn''t allowed the other parent visitation.

I don''t know if the non-bio parent wasn''t permitted to adopt or just didn''t because the legal label didn''t matter to them but they didn''t have a leg to stand on in court when the relationship was over.

 

[Ella]

Please remember no discussion of religion and no personal attacks. Keep the thread on topic. Last warning.

 

[lucyandroger]

BIH, Your original post on interracial marriage did not clarify that you were repeating old legal arguments...it made it sound like those were your opinions or they were facts that were a given. That''s what had me confused.

 

[Beacon]

We are so lucky to be in America, a place where change is possible.

Issues like this are like blood pressure: they change all the time for a myriad of reasons.

50 years ago the mere notion of gay people adopting a child would have been so scandalous that even it''s discussion would be unthinkable. Not all that long ago there were plenty of laws in my area (SF Bay) that specifically disallowed Asians from owning property. I read many of them in the old title documents I came upon from time to time. It would blow your mind to read this stuff. Same with other ethnic groups, they were barred from owning property, and that rule ran with the property. Inter racial marriage was a complete disaster and rarely happened and was unacceptable when it did.

Now we recognize this type of discrimination for what it is. I imagine in time gay people will have all the rights that straight people have and hopefully this will come sooner rather than later. Our successor generations will look back and say, "wow, can you believe it back then......"

 

[kenny]

Date: 6/30/2010 5:15:55 PM
Author: Beacon
We are so lucky to be in America, a place where change is possible.
Issues like this are like blood pressure: they change all the time for a myriad of reasons.

50 years ago the mere notion of gay people adopting a child would have been so scandalous that even it's discussion would be unthinkable. Not all that long ago there were plenty of laws in my area (SF Bay) that specifically disallowed Asians from owning property. I read many of them in the old title documents I came upon from time to time. It would blow your mind to read this stuff. Same with other ethnic groups, they were barred from owning property, and that rule ran with the property. Inter racial marriage was a complete disaster and rarely happened and was unacceptable when it did.

Now we recognize this type of discrimination for what it is. I imagine in time gay people will have all the rights that straight people have and hopefully this will come sooner rather than later. Our successor generations will look back and say, 'wow, can you believe it back then......'

Indeed, it is a wonderful time of transition.
I do believe changing old minds is next to impossible and we must just wait a few decades for them to die off and be replaced by new minds.
What really scares me though is the movement to control and poison those little minds with bigotry (oh excuse me, I mean "preserve traditional family values") using things like homeschooling, and moving to states and communities where this garbage still thrives.

 

[Callisto]

This whole thread makes me so sad. There will be a day where our descendants will look at our generation as "those hateful people" the way we look at slave owners and all who perpetuated racism in the world for years. While it pains me to be part of a generation that still harbors this hatred for another group of people, I can only hope to raise my children to be loving and open minded people by showing compassion for all those who are different than myself and striving for equal rights for all citizens in my country and others around the world.

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 6/30/2010 2:51:45 PM
Author: kenny
I didn''t choose to be gay.

How absurd.

Why would anyone choose to be in a hated group?


I was different since my earliest memories.

I lived in confusion and self-hate till I had my first experience at age 23.

(Imagine if 10 years of dating and healthy development were erased from your life.)


Even today I''m positive that the damage from hate is not fully reversed.

No, Kenny, clearly you''re, unlike other human beings, unnatural, scientifically unnatural even!

You are unnatural and unscientific (or something).

A person is born from a sperm and an egg. Therefore, gay couples cannot adopt. Get it?

Good.

 

[kenny]

There is an excellent film I'd like to recommend that looks at many of the themes in this thread.
It is now streaming on Netflix.

Don't read anything about it if you don't want the plot spoiled.
Even if you took the story away the superb acting, writing, directing, period costumes, sets and art direction make it worth your time.
Julianne Moore is riveting in it.

Far From Heaven

 

[Beacon]

Kenny that concern is real, but I find that access to different communities makes progress much faster now than in the past. I was raised amidst discrimination, meaning I was taught to be prejudiced, but it did not take with me as I grew older and got around the USA/world/community. I wager the same will be true of young people now, even more true.

Take heart, this change will come too and probably faster than in the past. Access and information is ever acclerating.