ACA Pricing/Markup

[WinkHPD]

There are a few, very few, well educated consumers who can search and pick out the few grains of wheat amongst the huge piles of chaff on the market.

SCORE for them.

For most however, the search is futile, as there are so few of those scores actually floating around. That is where the value of the few vendors selling the top quality cuts lies. The guess work is gone and the beauty remains. For those that prefer and appreciate the beauty, the VALUE is far more than the relatively small additional price.

Just like a Cadillac costs more than a Yugo, even though the Yugo is far less expensive, few choose to drive a Yugo on purpose.

When you get to the top cut diamonds it is a lot more like choosing between a Maserati and a Lamborghini. Then you can spend days and weeks researching the differences and deciding which is the one for you.

Wink

 

[nala]

There are a few, very few, well educated consumers who can search and pick out the few grains of wheat amongst the huge piles of chaff on the market.

SCORE for them.

For most however, the search is futile, as there are so few of those scores actually floating around. That is where the value of the few vendors selling the top quality cuts lies. The guess work is gone and the beauty remains. For those that prefer and appreciate the beauty, the VALUE is far more than the relatively small additional price.

Just like a Cadillac costs more than a Yugo, even though the Yugo is far less expensive.

When you get to the top cut diamonds it is a lot more like choosing between a Maserati and a Lamborghini. Then you can spend days and weeks researching the differences and deciding which is the one for you.

Wink

In your analogy, where would you place oec? As classic cars that are valued for their rarity but not their performance?

I have always been intrigued by the opinion on this board that oec’s get a free pass bc they are a different beast. Don’t get me wrong. I love love love oec’s. But i find it odd that the same people who preach super ideal cut are all of a sudden comfortable with an oec or even a branded oec and don’t scrutinize them for super ideal performance. Instead, they appreciate their personality. But don’t all well cut diamonds have their own personality? For that matter, where does that leave all the other shapes? Are mrb’s the only diamonds that are scrutinized so closely and held to a super ideal standard?

 

[carbonfan]

This is definitely a matter of personal preference, so everyone's mileage will obviously vary somewhat. For me there is a noticeable visual difference in light performance with the ACAs and other superideals that nothing else can match. In addition, as others have mentioned, ACAs are so strictly screened that when you purchase an ACA (or a VC Ideal Hearts, or BGD Black, or HPD, etc.) you are absolutely guaranteed to receive an incredibly well cut and beautifully scintillating diamond. This preliminary vetting offers a "mind clean" component that removes a lot of stress from the process. Of course, not everyone needs this type of peace of mind, and that is perfectly fine. However, I also concur with @kenny that when you compare Whiteflash with most other superideal vendors their pricing structure is (IMHO) very reasonable even if you disregard the customer service and trade up policy (which is also a huge plus).

So I believe that it is completely worth the (typically slight) difference in price, as (for me at least) the end justifies the means. But again, different people will have different priorities and preferences. In short, I would advise prospective purchasers to strongly consider an ACA (or other superideal vendors with similar pricing structures such as VC's Ideal Hearts diamonds) if their priority is beauty, quality, and overall value (echoing @Wink!).

 

[Alexiszoe]

While I do believe the premium nets a stunning diamond, and can be of great value sometimes with the exceptional customer service and peace of mind etc, once it gets beyond a certain size and price point, as @ac117 mentioned, the premium of X% becomes a bit more difficult to justify, at least for me.

For example, back when I was looking around, the premium (given the same size, color and clarity) between a GIA XXX, HCA<2 stone and a super ideal was $17k more.

For me, I do not feel the increase in performance is worth an additional $17k, while others may feel the money is well worth it. If I was buying a 1 carat however, where the x% premium was a lot less, that would be a lot easier to say yes to.

 

[PierreBear]

Wow, thank you for all the comments and experiences shared on this thread and hope it continues to help others sort through the same questions I may be having. I have the utmost respect for those vendors such as WF, BG, CBI… etc, and didn’t mean “premium” @kenny in a derogatory term. Their products are beautiful but I was trying to find a general % increase perhaps by carat size to have a better idea on how to budget and plan for the future and to be more educated!

Just to provide more background, from my pre PS days, I have a modern round brilliant that is about 1.5 ct that is far from an ideal cut and isn’t even triple ex and I also have a 5 stone ring from BG with their signature stones. I can see that the e-ring perhaps isn’t as high performing as the 5 stone but I still appreciate its beauty. The 5 stone with the 0.4 cts each are sparkly but even if they weren’t ideal stones, perhaps any 5 stone band of that size would be eye catching. I’ve had a jeweler tell me that my 1.5 ct wasn’t a well cut stone but it wasn’t with his naked eye. He was pulling out his tools and magnifying it to confirm. To me, I think I’m learning that I don’t need the stone to be mind clean or to get the best of the best? When I’m a good girl, I think I clean my rings maybe once a week/month at most? I know… shame on me… but with those factors I am trying to decipher if I’m more in the boat of @jadesilver @ac117 @Alexiszoe. I was beating myself up that I didn’t know about Whiteflash earlier in life or else we would have bought there and used their upgrade policy. Now with PS knowledge and planning for future rings, I told myself, I’ll for certain get an ACA especially with posts like @HappyNewLife. However, I think I might be ok just hitting the size mark with a stone that performs well and take that savings for something else? But the ability to upgrade is more appealing to me than having that perfectly cut stone to be honest.

@flyingpig – Thank you so much for showing me both sides of the coin using concrete examples. Your analysis is exactly what I would like to do but I admit that I don’t know enough about finding a good performing GIA stone other than making sure the cut/polish/symmetry says Excellent.

Can someone make it really concrete for someone like me just for planning purposes to help me try and understand my personal preference? Suppose I want to be close to the 9 mm mark and that I don’t mind I color. I’m selecting the following WF one since it’s one of the less expensive ones with clarity of SI1 and priced at $26K. Can someone share an example of a non-branded stone that is decent performing that is priced lower they would consider?

The % increase between branded that some of ya’ll mentioned have varied. With a 30% markup, could there really be a stone in the $18K range that is close to the ACA’s performance and what qualifications are you looking for?

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3701014.htm

Appreciate ya’ll teaching me!

 

[macrobial]

As a (mostly) reader of this forum I would add my own experience from Memphis. Last year I bought a diamond and setting from a local jeweler using the tools and advice from this forum. I did a lot of pricing of stones (one of the reasons I went with the Jeweler I did was because they put their inventory online with links to grading reports, which is very rare for B&Ms in this area, making comparison of their prices with the virtual inventories and in house vetted stones pretty easy) and found that if you are careful in the specs there is really no difference in price between premium cuts and what you can get locally. I found the same stone on an online vendor's virtual inventory and saw that my jeweler had a 10% markup, which to me is really reasonable (he shipped in three stones for me to see side by side, had a one year exchange policy, all things that I looked for via this forum). For the specs of the stone (H, VS2, 1.1ct) and HCA <2, an ACA of the same specs today is about the same price as the B&M price for the stone I got. So, you can pay 10% for the experience of having a local vendor do the leg work, ship, put deposits, give you the local guarantees (but you have to decide what is "premium"), or you can pay the 10% to a premium cutter/vendor who sells the premium cuts and get a guarantee in the sense you know that diamond will be great. I guess my point is that in my experience there are no "deals" if you look carefully enough. Diamonds are a commodity that are traded on an open market. ACAs or the high performance cut diamonds are not more "premium" than any other stone, they are priced at what the market determines, not above nor below. The only premium prices I have seen are due to branding in chain stores, and they are exploiting the fact that consumers in chain jewelers are unlikely to do any independent research.

 

[OoohShiny]

I just wanted to say, @Wink has a story for every occasion - I love reading them, I get the feeling that an evening out with Wink would never be dull!

 

[ac117]

Wow, thank you for all the comments and experiences shared on this thread and hope it continues to help others sort through the same questions I may be having. I have the utmost respect for those vendors such as WF, BG, CBI… etc, and didn’t mean “premium” @kenny in a derogatory term. Their products are beautiful but I was trying to find a general % increase perhaps by carat size to have a better idea on how to budget and plan for the future and to be more educated!

Just to provide more background, from my pre PS days, I have a modern round brilliant that is about 1.5 ct that is far from an ideal cut and isn’t even triple ex and I also have a 5 stone ring from BG with their signature stones. I can see that the e-ring perhaps isn’t as high performing as the 5 stone but I still appreciate its beauty. The 5 stone with the 0.4 cts each are sparkly but even if they weren’t ideal stones, perhaps any 5 stone band of that size would be eye catching. I’ve had a jeweler tell me that my 1.5 ct wasn’t a well cut stone but it wasn’t with his naked eye. He was pulling out his tools and magnifying it to confirm. To me, I think I’m learning that I don’t need the stone to be mind clean or to get the best of the best? When I’m a good girl, I think I clean my rings maybe once a week/month at most? I know… shame on me… but with those factors I am trying to decipher if I’m more in the boat of @jadesilver @ac117 @Alexiszoe. I was beating myself up that I didn’t know about Whiteflash earlier in life or else we would have bought there and used their upgrade policy. Now with PS knowledge and planning for future rings, I told myself, I’ll for certain get an ACA especially with posts like @HappyNewLife. However, I think I might be ok just hitting the size mark with a stone that performs well and take that savings for something else? But the ability to upgrade is more appealing to me than having that perfectly cut stone to be honest.

@flyingpig – Thank you so much for showing me both sides of the coin using concrete examples. Your analysis is exactly what I would like to do but I admit that I don’t know enough about finding a good performing GIA stone other than making sure the cut/polish/symmetry says Excellent.

Can someone make it really concrete for someone like me just for planning purposes to help me try and understand my personal preference? Suppose I want to be close to the 9 mm mark and that I don’t mind I color. I’m selecting the following WF one since it’s one of the less expensive ones with clarity of SI1 and priced at $26K. Can someone share an example of a non-branded stone that is decent performing that is priced lower they would consider?

The % increase between branded that some of ya’ll mentioned have varied. With a 30% markup, could there really be a stone in the $18K range that is close to the ACA’s performance and what qualifications are you looking for?

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3701014.htm

Appreciate ya’ll teaching me!

Please keep in mind that I would *strongly* suggest you work with a vendor who could still give you light return images on the stones are you considering. I worked with IDJ on my upgrade and Yekutiel is amazing!!! I would sit with him as he scanned the diamond and showed me the sarine and light return images. I wanted to make sure the stone I chose would qualify for AGS 000, too.

Also, it's not always about the savings with an ideal vs. super ideal stone, but what you might be able to get instead. What I mean by that is, if you're willing to spend $26k on the 2.617 I SI1 from WF, you could:
a. Potentially save a few thousand by going the 'ideal' but not super ideal route
b. Potentially get better color and/or clarity for the same $26k
c. Potentially get an even bigger size for the $26k

"Hunting" takes longer, too, which is important to note. If you want instant gratification, WF is the way to go. It took months for me to find my upgrade so I can't give you examples of all the options I listed above. Just from a quick search...these are some I would look into.
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...i-color-si1-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3734411
https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...i-color-vs2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-3680824
https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD09608781?refTab=DIAMONDS

 

[jadesilver]

Which brings up the question: do all super ideals look like each other? Do they lose their unique personalities, if color and clarity and size, of course are all similar?

The blinding precision cut actually makes them very much identical to each other, just IMO based on looking at many stones from a Super Ideal store and looking on another local forum where they are absolutely insane over Super Ideal Stones and all of the ASET and Idealscope and hearts and arrows images are very precisely symmetrical and pure red and black from end-to-end and all the images look identical. Honestly I know I go in that store and whatever stone I throw a stone and pick will just perform exactly the same as the others. Precision cut for maximum light performance. Not sure about all the other stores.

 

[OoohShiny]

Which brings up the question: do all super ideals look like each other? Do they lose their unique personalities, if color and clarity and size, of course are all similar?

I think this is one of the key questions that is asked on here, and there have been a couple of CBI vs WF (vs BGD?) threads recently, which have been very interesting.

I think the only way one can really decide for oneself is to get stones of each in-hand (and GIA XXX if that is on the table) and then assess them side-by-side, but sadly that is impossible to do unless one is very credit-worthy and has a huge credit card limit to play with!

Pictures and videos and anecdotal viewpoints on the internet are all well and good and very helpful, but ultimately one's eyes see what they see and one's taste is one's taste

 

[jadesilver]

Wow, thank you for all the comments and experiences shared on this thread and hope it continues to help others sort through the same questions I may be having. I have the utmost respect for those vendors such as WF, BG, CBI… etc, and didn’t mean “premium” @kenny in a derogatory term. Their products are beautiful but I was trying to find a general % increase perhaps by carat size to have a better idea on how to budget and plan for the future and to be more educated!

Just to provide more background, from my pre PS days, I have a modern round brilliant that is about 1.5 ct that is far from an ideal cut and isn’t even triple ex and I also have a 5 stone ring from BG with their signature stones. I can see that the e-ring perhaps isn’t as high performing as the 5 stone but I still appreciate its beauty. The 5 stone with the 0.4 cts each are sparkly but even if they weren’t ideal stones, perhaps any 5 stone band of that size would be eye catching. I’ve had a jeweler tell me that my 1.5 ct wasn’t a well cut stone but it wasn’t with his naked eye. He was pulling out his tools and magnifying it to confirm. To me, I think I’m learning that I don’t need the stone to be mind clean or to get the best of the best? When I’m a good girl, I think I clean my rings maybe once a week/month at most? I know… shame on me… but with those factors I am trying to decipher if I’m more in the boat of @jadesilver @ac117 @Alexiszoe. I was beating myself up that I didn’t know about Whiteflash earlier in life or else we would have bought there and used their upgrade policy. Now with PS knowledge and planning for future rings, I told myself, I’ll for certain get an ACA especially with posts like @HappyNewLife. However, I think I might be ok just hitting the size mark with a stone that performs well and take that savings for something else? But the ability to upgrade is more appealing to me than having that perfectly cut stone to be honest.

@flyingpig – Thank you so much for showing me both sides of the coin using concrete examples. Your analysis is exactly what I would like to do but I admit that I don’t know enough about finding a good performing GIA stone other than making sure the cut/polish/symmetry says Excellent.

Can someone make it really concrete for someone like me just for planning purposes to help me try and understand my personal preference? Suppose I want to be close to the 9 mm mark and that I don’t mind I color. I’m selecting the following WF one since it’s one of the less expensive ones with clarity of SI1 and priced at $26K. Can someone share an example of a non-branded stone that is decent performing that is priced lower they would consider?

The % increase between branded that some of ya’ll mentioned have varied. With a 30% markup, could there really be a stone in the $18K range that is close to the ACA’s performance and what qualifications are you looking for?

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3701014.htm

Appreciate ya’ll teaching me!

Concierge Diamonds (he has an office in LA but also works remotely with people all over the world) has a 100% lifetime upgrade policy. I thought that was pretty cool and valuable. I asked him to source some stones for me and he orders them in and then sends you pictures and videos of the stones in natural light. His prices are competitive with James Allen’s prices.

Here’s a review from a PS-er although Concierge has far more reviews on Reddit and his Instagram https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-journey-with-pictures.223981/

It might be worth reading a bit about him and probably even better if you are able to go to his office to view stones for yourself.