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My Journey (with pictures)

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
88
So, a little background about me:

I’m an Emergency Department doctor in California. I’m also a meticulous researcher and planner and I LOVE data. In fact, a big part of the non-clinical aspect of my life is based in information technology and handling the vast amount of data that hospitals collect.

I also love the chase involved in finding a great deal. I search for flights for weeks, trying to squeeze 50 more dollars, an upgrade, or a better itinerary. I’ll look high and low for a 10% off coupon or 5 dollars off. The little bit of money saved typically is small, but I find it a rewarding task. I started looking for a graduation present 2 months before I found what I wanted, and then it took me 4 months to find the right price.

I say all that to explain how buying a diamond is a perfect game for me:
-There are so many layers of data.
-It is hard to gather all that data.
-It requires time and research to understand all the data.

But there are some frustrations in there too:
-The data is not all objective.
-Not all the data is available to consumers.

Then there are the things that make this pursuit especially fun:
-The data inform the quality of the diamond, but doesn’t guarantee it.
-Understanding the numbers does not make your eyes learn any faster.
-One’s “thresholds” or preferences makes each search slightly different.

My search, in truth, started back in November. Casual at first, simple online searches of rings themselves. Very basic reading on 4Cs. A quick glance at how much things cost on blue nile (because everyone has heard of blue nile).

I love reddit. I use reddit all the time, so at this point I searched reddit. I was actually pretty disappointed about the small community on reddit. Nonetheless, I ran into two people, Dan Moran at Concierge Diamonds and sproutworkshop. I’ll get back to them later.

Over the next several months, I started learning more. But I was slightly untrusting of the information I was reading. Google searches lead you to low hanging fruit: the “free diamond consultants.” Diamond .pro, beyond4cs, onlinediamondbuyingadvice, etc.

Yes, they have a lot of genuine and good information to learn from, but as you really read into each, you see that they push a bit of their education towards why you should buy from their preferred store. To be fair, they’re up front about the fact they get a commission. But if you suggest a stone to them from another site, they’ll dismiss it and recommend one from their preferred site. They have skin in the game and they aren’t objective players in helping you find what you’re looking for. NEXT!

At this point, mid-May, I realized I didn't know what shape she wanted. So I put her mom on the task - she came back saying something square, probably princess. I met with Concierge Diamonds in downtown LA. He showed me princesses, radiants, and rounds. I liked rounds.

A week later, I asked one of her good friends - she sleuthed too and came back and said, cushion or radiant.

Hmmm. A big discrepancy that I didn’t want to screw up. So I eventually just asked her directly. We looked at some stones together. It was 9 at night and the only thing that was open was Ben Bridge. Wow, that place was a total ripoff. I was practically laughing at the prices as we left. We saw a couple more stones the next couple days. She couldn’t decide between radiant and round, so she told me to pick. I picked round, but she doesn’t know that yet. (I also got her a necklace with a smaller radiant stone. I’ll post picture of it too).

At this point, we’re at the late part of May. I’m back on reddit. I’ve learn about HCA from sproutworkshop .com on reddit. I also find his data mining tool for James Allen. Basically, once a week he collects all the stones and categorizes them by color, clarity, and cut and then plots them on a size vs. price chart. You can then click on each one to be linked to the site to see the stone. It helps you select the least expensive, largest stones in each grade to get a sense of their quality and appearance. It’s very useful to get an idea of what the prices should be for stones on other sites, and whether you might be getting ripped off.

I’ve also found Pricescope. My general feeling about forums is not positive. I get patients all the time who come in because of something they read online; they aren’t always wrong (sometimes they’re spot on), but the vast majority of cases lead them to scary, rare, and unlikely conclusions. So I read pricescope with a great deal of skepticism. But I also read the education. I saw that there were “preferred vendors,” but many of them. And that there was a lot of data, and trade folks and highly dedicated expert consumers who adhere to codes of conduct.

It seemed like nobody had anything to gain or lose from my preferences or ultimate decision, so I gained a great deal of respect for pricescope and for the advice given, but it isn’t perfect. I’ll get to that at the end.

I met Dan again in downtown LA in June. At this point, we were looking for rounds. I had several options online, and I was subjecting him to the HCA tool and AGS tables.

I also purchased a 2.5 K SI2 with a clarity comment of “grading based on clouds not shown,” against the advice of pretty much everyone. It looked great on the JA website with its magnified photos, so I decided to give it a go.

When I received it, I brought it to compare with Dan’s diamonds. Although on its own it was beautiful, in comparison it was dull and milky. I was disappointed by JA’s diamond inspectors. I had asked SEVERAL of them what they thought of that grading comment. they said no big deal, it’ll be beautiful, yada yada. When i went to return it and told them why, another JA employee said, “oh, weird, I would have never told you to buy the stone with that comment.” Well…thanks.

Anyway, I will say the JA return process was fairly smooth and they got me the money back in 12 days. So kudos to them for that.

So, I was back on the prowl. But I was constantly finding that being frugal on this search was leading to some massive flaw about the stone. Either its got an ugly inclusion, a deep cut, grade-setting clouds, weird proportions, or lower and lower scores. There are plenty of stones out there where you can tell that you’d be getting ripped off, but there didn't seem to be any stones that were a good deal.



So, I put a deposit on a 2.25K from Dan. It’s HCA score was 2.3, but it’s price was in my wheelhouse and it sparkled very nicely. I posted about it on PS, and it got luke warm responses. I was told: “go see the Crafted By Infinity stones at Jewelry Source, you dumbo!” So I did.

I saw a 1.62 J with Brenda at the Jewelry source. Damn, that thing was nice. Nicer than the 2.25K, and it looked like a F/G color. But I had this nagging feeling about buying a brand-name stone. “Why!? Why would I spend 30% more for a ACA or BGD signature, or HPD/CBI? I can find something just as nice without the branding.” So, I didn’t buy it or seek it out further, but it was very informative. After having seen 40-60 stones, I became aware of really what I needed to be seeing. I had a gold standard. I realized I may not be able to quite reach it without buying a brand-name stone, but I could get damn near close.

So I put Dan to the task. He brought 5 more stones to look at. 1.9 D SI1. 2.5 J SI2, 2.25 I SI1… We were on the right track. These sparkled spectacularly. Under white light, indirect light, sunlight, shaded. By this point, I had met with Dan five times. He was being quite frank with me, which I liked. No sugar-coating. Telling me his opinion. Telling me what he preferred. No opinion from someone selling you a stone can be totally baggage-free, but I felt we were actually aiming for the same goal at that point. I loved the 2.5 J SI2. It had all the qualities that made me happy. So we went with that instead.

I received the ring yesterday and posted some initial photos on the show-me-the-bling forum. It’s glorious. In a strange way, also quite validating that my time learning was well spent. Dan points out that I could have just worked extra ER shifts and paid for a more expensive diamond…..

…Yeah. So?

So, now some conclusions:

This industry is fascinating. The data is opaque. The information gradient between consumers and the industry is staggering. The economy for such a luxury good with minimal inherent value is a true testament to the last century of advertising-turned-cultural-norm.
Pricescope is probably the best resource of information. HOWEVER, there is room for improvement.
Seeing is believing. The numbers only get you so far. You have to see what you’re buying to see if it makes you happy. You can play an objective game only so far as to weed out some obvious bad choices, but you can’t buy from it.
My opinion of the idealscope and ASET scope is…well, you’ll notice I never mentioned them. I don’t really appreciate how they help me. If I see the stone with my eyes, I can decide if I like it or not. The idealscope is a somewhat subjective measure designed to replace the… subjective experience of looking at the stone unaided? What do I do if I love the stone but it has a “bad” idealscope? I don’t get it.

Comments:
PS enthusiasts. I see the rocky talky forum is somewhat of a broken record. Newbies post, they haven’t done any reading, so your initial answer is “use the HCA, look for angles and dimensions that fit these ranges, consider lower colors and clarity.” This is the right way to rock someone’s world in a good way. Show them that D VVS isn’t the only choice, and that they really aren’t sacrificing anything by going down.
HOWEVER, be careful. There are capable and honest high quality jewelers that aren’t just JA/WF/BGD/CBI. Victor Canera and Steven Kirsch (to name a couple) aren’t the only high-quality ring builders. I know this isn’t intentional as you do have to repeat yourself often, but do remember that everyone has different goals and approaches that may not align with yours. Your opinion is valued, appreciated, and respect. It carries a lot of weight, and with that comes responsibility to advise and guide, not limit, dismiss, or derail. Be careful that you don’t come across as dogmatic.

Brenda at the Jewelry Source was awesome. She was matter-of-fact about what she had to sell, what she liked about CBI, and what the trade-off was. Though brief, I felt like I had a meaningful eye-to-eye conversation with her. Highly recommend.
Dan at Concierge Diamond was also fantastic. I was very happy to work with him. He was very patient. He told me why he liked stones and why he didn’t. He didn’t exactly agree with my approach for selection (HCA etc), but he respected it and played along, understanding that it at least helped weed out some stones. That said, he showed me stones that scored 3-4 on HCA that still looked awesome in all sorts of lights.

I went to a few other places that I don’t have anything positive to say.
-L’oliphant in Santa Monica basically said don’t worry, we’ll get you something great and under market. The end result was a boring EGL I color that really was quite dull. The sales tactics were pushy and the meeting places with their diamond dealer were unconventional and odd (outside a starbucks on the street corner?).
-23rd Street Jeweler in Santa Monica got about 5 minutes of my time; they were rude and dismissive, figuring I couldn’t afford what they had to sell. Just a bad sales tactic.
-Tiffany's. Overpriced like woah. Hard to evaluate the stones with the ridiculously bright white lights. Overall just a fun place to pop into, but I never seriously considered.
-Ben Bridge. Hah.

Overall, thank you all SO much for helping and taking part in this journey. I sincerely hope to never have to do it again :)

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fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
88
0.72 radiant H VS1 next to a similar sized rose cut black diamond.

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BeekeeperBetty

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
271
I agree with a lot of what you said. Sometimes the advice is cookie cutter here. I feel a bit sad when people come here looking for help, and they are told not to buy the diamond shape they asked about and instead always go for an ideal cut round from the favorite vendors and use the preferred vendors for settings. People have different ideas about what is beautiful. Many people love ideal cut rounds, but many people don't, also, and that's OK! Jewelry and diamonds are art, and trying to make it a science that is only about numbers is like trying to force a round peg in to a square hole.

Your ring is beautiful, and your lady (just assuming it's for your lady) is very fortunate. Thank you for sharing your experience!
 

anne_h

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 13, 2005
Messages
998
Thanks for sharing your journey.

I work in IT too and love using data to make good decisions. I'm also a big believer in "if it speaks to you, there's value there". I'm not into MRBs anyways so usually have to work by sight.

Food for thought - if you'd like to improve how the forum gives advice, consider coming back and chiming in from time to time. That way, you can be the change you want to see. ;-)

Congrats on your upcoming proposal!

Anne
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2015
Messages
2,171
:clap: : The ring looks beautiful.

Come back here occasionally and guide other new members with your experience.
 

ElizabethR

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
313
Beautiful ring, and what a journey, but didn't your intended prefer a squarish cut? Maybe I misread the text. Did she change her mind on the cut?
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
88
ElizabethR|1467491637|4050876 said:
Beautiful ring, and what a journey, but didn't your intended prefer a squarish cut? Maybe I misread the text. Did she change her mind on the cut?
She basically didnt know what she wanted. She didnt like cushions when she saw them in person. She liked square radiants and rounds in person, so she left it up to me.
 

newjourney

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
72
fofolala said:
Comments:
PS enthusiasts. I see the rocky talky forum is somewhat of a broken record. Newbies post, they haven’t done any reading, so your initial answer is “use the HCA, look for angles and dimensions that fit these ranges, consider lower colors and clarity.” This is the right way to rock someone’s world in a good way. Show them that D VVS isn’t the only choice, and that they really aren’t sacrificing anything by going down.
HOWEVER, be careful. There are capable and honest high quality jewelers that aren’t just JA/WF/BGD/CBI. Victor Canera and Steven Kirsch (to name a couple) aren’t the only high-quality ring builders. I know this isn’t intentional as you do have to repeat yourself often, but do remember that everyone has different goals and approaches that may not align with yours. Your opinion is valued, appreciated, and respect. It carries a lot of weight, and with that comes responsibility to advise and guide, not limit, dismiss, or derail. Be careful that you don’t come across as dogmatic.
BeekeeperBetty said:
I agree with a lot of what you said. Sometimes the advice is cookie cutter here. I feel a bit sad when people come here looking for help, and they are told not to buy the diamond shape they asked about and instead always go for an ideal cut round from the favorite vendors and use the preferred vendors for settings. People have different ideas about what is beautiful. Many people love ideal cut rounds, but many people don't, also, and that's OK! Jewelry and diamonds are art, and trying to make it a science that is only about numbers is like trying to force a round peg in to a square hole.
I completely agree with these sentiments. While I appreciate the knowledge on this forum, there are often too many "subjective" advice that are laced with personal biased tastes/opinions. Preaching is not the same as teaching. Dissuading new posters from desiring high color and/or clarity in favor of size is not always productive. Mind clean is an important factor to many people.

Congrats, fofolala! Great work and thanks for sharing.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
7,160
Thanks for taking the time to post your experience, fofolala :)

I like your data-led approach :mrgreen:

I think it is great you managed to take the time to check out such a large number of stones and also 'benchmark' against one of the SuperIdeal 'branded' stones - it meant you were able to develop your taste and also gain experience in what to look for and what made you happy.

I find it interesting that you did rate the branded stone so highly, too, as it seems to back up the assertion that exceptionally tight cutting tolerances do make a difference and result in a really top-notch finished product, although it does of course have a concomitant pricing structure attached to it.

Personally speaking, none of the local shops offer anything decent whatsoever and I'm also in the wrong country for cheap and easy shipping, so for me, the HCA / IdealScope / ASETscope aspects form an important part of nailing down good stones remotely - I can't afford to ship even a few stones back and forth and I'm not able to go and check out a lot of stones locally, and TBH, I'm not sure I trust my eyes or myself to not get led astray by a less-that-scrupulous sales person with pretty lighting :???: :lol: so I do hear what you're saying, but I think it might be a case of 'horses for courses' depending on where you are in the world :) (I'm considering an EC for my wedding ring but I am now worried I will buy a dud because they require more first-hand visual assessment than MRBs! :oops: lol)

Fair comments on the forum vendors side of things as well - my personal feeling is that, as with the HCA/IS/ASET aspects, it is a case of trying to ensure purchases are pretty much guaranteed to get a good quality final product, removing the prospect of an unknown vendor or jeweller producing something sub-standard and creating hassles for purchasers. It certainly is not the case that no other decent merchants are out there, as you say, but finding them and recommending them is a different matter! It sounds like Dan gets a solid recommendation from you - I like no-BS vendors too, I can't stand schmoozing slimy salespeople :mad: lol


Anyway, thanks again for sharing your journey and the finished article - I can't wait to hear how the proposal goes (and get some handshots ;)) lol) so best of luck and report back soon! :))
 

tweeter8177

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
570
Glad you found a diamond and ring your are happy with!! My 2 cents...I agree that the best way to buy a diamond is seeing it with your own eyes and comparing to other diamonds. I think many of the PS vendors would say the same thing. Unfortunately, unless you live in a big US city, like LA and NY, you likely don't have that luxury. Where I live, the diamond choices are limited and the retailers charge a premium for both the diamonds and the settings...like a ridiculous premium!!!!! I was lucky to fly out to NY to view diamonds in person on my last diamond upgrade, but many people can't afford the trip on top of their diamond purchase. I think that is why online purchasing becomes the next best choice. There are way more options and between the various tools (HCA, Idealscope, etc.), return policies and the PS community, you can likely buy a beautiful diamond.
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
88
tweeter8177|1467553922|4051001 said:
Glad you found a diamond and ring your are happy with!! My 2 cents...I agree that the best way to buy a diamond is seeing it with your own eyes and comparing to other diamonds. I think many of the PS vendors would say the same thing. Unfortunately, unless you live in a big US city, like LA and NY, you likely don't have that luxury. Where I live, the diamond choices are limited and the retailers charge a premium for both the diamonds and the settings...like a ridiculous premium!!!!! I was lucky to fly out to NY to view diamonds in person on my last diamond upgrade, but many people can't afford the trip on top of their diamond purchase. I think that is why online purchasing becomes the next best choice. There are way more options and between the various tools (HCA, Idealscope, etc.), return policies and the PS community, you can likely buy a beautiful diamond.

I am totally for online buying. the inventory exposure one gets online is unparalleled. I also think the advice on PS is probably the best available online. I understand your point on how the IS and ASET can help make decisions for those not near a large supply of diamonds. But, I would even say that there are many options online, and the focus by most of the seasoned PS users seems to boil down to 1-2 vendors most of the time. I understand it is their advice, but I wanted to remind everyone that there are other vendors and approaches beyond the ones typically espoused here on PS.
 

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
12,174
That is very true - there are lots and lots of options. However, when giving advice, most here want to steer buyers in a direction of a tried and true vendor who vets their stones for the best cut and light return. Aside from that, you can only preliminarily suggest the HCA as a rejection tool - not a selection tool - and IS and ASET images. Those coupled with numbers that fall into a good range will somewhat guarantee a stone that folks would want to soak their hard earned money into.

You were willing to research, find stones and compare. Many are not or just feel too overwhelmed with the process. The premium charged for super ideals is not always doable or desirable for some buyers. In a comparison, they don't feel like the extra expense is worth it. Others will pay it for the peace of mind it brings. Over the years, as you might imagine, there have been many potential buyers that come at the task from varying points of view and degrees of willingness to learn and search. It is not so much that only preferred vendors are mentioned as it is an over abundance of caution in recommending something outside of the box. My first diamond was purchased over 40 years ago - the internet did not exist of course nor did the level of education that is available today. Trust me when I tell you that it would have saved me lots of tears and heartache through the years. Having said that though, I would hope that in that assistance I would have been guided to education, information and good selection - not some wildly pointing finger of yet another costly disaster.

I am very happy for you that you have found a stone that ticks all of your boxes and at a price that you found reasonable. That truly is at the heart of PS and its members - there are lots of people here that give much time to the endeavor!
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
88
MissGotRocks said:
That truly is at the heart of PS and its members - there are lots of people here that give much time to the endeavor!
That is the beauty of PS - no one has skin in the game. The advice a newbie like me gets is genuine. Those advising me share my goal. And, please don't get me wrong, I am highly appreciative of the help and learning I received here.

I also mention in my original post that, by virtue of the volume of newbies, the frequently-posting prosumers on the site have to give somewhat canned initial responses to stay sane. And some, probably most, newbies who show up here really do want to just be told, "no, that one's wrong, look for XYZ specs." To keep it simple and safe, the usual vendors and setters get mentioned. The usual specs get mentioned. And typically, a disclaimer along the lines of, "you should go see them in person to get a sense of your tolerances and preferences" is included. All very safe, conservative approaches, but limiting.

I wanted only to offer my humble opinion of my search and of PS. In an effort to make it better in the future: not everyone is looking for the same thing in the same way. I read these guidelines when I first arrived to PS:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/rockytalky-prosumer-guidelines.145983/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/rockytalky-prosumer-guidelines.145983/[/URL]

They are excellent advice for posters and generally hold true throughout RockyTalky... but I think #5 and #6 could be a little bit truer a little more often ;-)
 

tweeter8177

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
570
fofolala|1467556477|4051008 said:
tweeter8177|1467553922|4051001 said:
Glad you found a diamond and ring your are happy with!! My 2 cents...I agree that the best way to buy a diamond is seeing it with your own eyes and comparing to other diamonds. I think many of the PS vendors would say the same thing. Unfortunately, unless you live in a big US city, like LA and NY, you likely don't have that luxury. Where I live, the diamond choices are limited and the retailers charge a premium for both the diamonds and the settings...like a ridiculous premium!!!!! I was lucky to fly out to NY to view diamonds in person on my last diamond upgrade, but many people can't afford the trip on top of their diamond purchase. I think that is why online purchasing becomes the next best choice. There are way more options and between the various tools (HCA, Idealscope, etc.), return policies and the PS community, you can likely buy a beautiful diamond.

I am totally for online buying. the inventory exposure one gets online is unparalleled. I also think the advice on PS is probably the best available online. I understand your point on how the IS and ASET can help make decisions for those not near a large supply of diamonds. But, I would even say that there are many options online, and the focus by most of the seasoned PS users seems to boil down to 1-2 vendors most of the time. I understand it is their advice, but I wanted to remind everyone that there are other vendors and approaches beyond the ones typically espoused here on PS.
As MissGotRocks said, you took the time and effort over several months to research diamonds before you purchased and I applaud you for that!!! Most newbies on here don't want to take that time to do that same level of research for various reasons and that is ok. So, PS members graciously provide recommendations. While I agree that you see a lot of recommendations for a few vendors, it is often because those vendors make the purchasing decision easy by offering performance tools and pictures of the actual diamond. Plus, they have really good return policies and upgrade policies. But, I also see a ton of recommendations from a wide variety of vendors, particularly for tighter budgets (James Allen, ID Jewelry, Enchanted Diamonds, BC2 and even Blue Nile all come to mind). Again, you admit that you love the chase of finding a good deal, so you spent a great deal of time to research diamonds. This opened up your options quite a bit and I hope your FF appreciates your efforts too!!! But, most people that come here for help just simply don't do the same thing. The people who end up staying on PS are those that do want to learn (like you) and/or have a passion for diamonds and jewelry!!
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
6,640
Fofo, I have found many vendors here that say: "You have to see the stone" especially rockdiamond. Data mining eh? that is what one of my sons does for a living.. I am curious, how did you get your g/f to like the mrb vs radiant/cushion? To me MRB are gorgeous, they shine like no other stone, but some people like the look of the other two more.. (actually I'd like one of each)... Congratulations on your ring and engagement, wishing peace and love to you and your girlfriend!

edit: I see above you answered my question! so I leave it as i can't wait to see handshots (and I have never bought a stone from rockdiamond btw, only GOG and a ring from B2C).

Peace and happiness !!!
 

fofolala

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 29, 2016
Messages
88
I assure you my comments are truly meant to be constructive, but I worry it has been taken as criticism. I understand there are multiple approaches, and mine was far more labor-intensive than most. I wanted to share my experience and also my take-aways from that experience, in hopes that a future me may reap even greater rewards from PS.

Tekate said:
I am curious, how did you get your g/f to like the mrb vs radiant/cushion?
I didn't do anything other than have her see them in person. She really had never given any thought to it in the past, and when her mom and friend approached her about it, they just looked at pictures online. When she saw them in person, she looked at each and decided she didnt like the cushion because it was a lot like a mrb without as much shine. She was stuck between the mrb and radiant, so she left it up to me. I ended up getting both (Which, as an aside, I've named the necklace with the side-by-side radiant and rose-cut black diamond "my better half")
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
6,640
Oh I think your comments are truly great and you have brought up truly wonderful points! I apologize if I didn't quite get that across. I do wish you much happiness in life.. I'm always glad that young people are still getting married, today it shows true commitment not being forced to as in my day.

Pictures!!! soon I hope of hand shots..
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
6,640
Oh I think your comments are truly great and you have brought up truly wonderful points! I apologize if I didn't quite get that across. I do wish you much happiness in life.. I'm always glad that young people are still getting married, today it shows true commitment not being forced to as in my day.

Pictures!!! soon I hope of hand shots..
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
6,640
Oh I think your comments are truly great and you have brought up truly wonderful points! I apologize if I didn't quite get that across. I do wish you much happiness in life.. I'm always glad that young people are still getting married, today it shows true commitment not being forced to as in my day.

Pictures!!! soon I hope of hand shots..
 
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