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About to purchase Ceylon from NSC- Please help!

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lamowery

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
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16
Hi,
I am brand new to this website. My fiancee and I are thinking of purchasing this stone from the Natural Sapphire Company. The color is beautiful, but there is a small blemish on the middle left. Considering as such, we are not sure if the price per carat makes sense. I was told at the store that the blemish can''t be polished out, but I have been reading on this website the last few days about badly cut stones at the NSC from Ceylon and also about possibilities of recutting. Can anyone offer advice? I don''t know much about cuts, "off center cutlets" (if I am usign the term correctly) or "meets". We didn''t look at diamonds either, so I didn''t get much "cut" research done prior to this. I thought in the store the color was beautiful and the stone had relfected color beautifully, but again, for the price and the fact there is a small blemish on top, I am bit concerned.

Also, if we bought a stone and had it recut, how much does something like that usually cost?

http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Blue/Oval/stoneid=B771

Thank you in advance, and if anyone has any questions, I am here to answer them!!
Lauren
 
That's a very high price per carat, but it is an unheated Ceylon sapphire of almost 4 carats. IMO, you would be wasting money cutting it because it's so highly priced per carat, and much of that cost is due to the large size. Nice color, but I think you're paying more for the size and the fact that it's unheated vs the color. I don't see much of a blemish, and I think it's good to have some tiny inclusions in a stone as a fingerprint, for identitification purposes, it also shows it's natural and not synthetic. I personally don't think it needs a recut. Most sapphires are cut pretty bad, and I think this one is pretty good for a sapphire. No window, and nice proportions, the cutlet seems in the center as well.

It's so difficult to tell from a picture what the color is truly like, and NSC usually posts videos of their stones on their website, especially the higher priced stones. I'm curious as to why they didn't do a video of this one. Can they post or send you a video of this one?
 
Holy Cow!!!!!! What a color!!!!!!! And I love the cut too. I''m sorry, but I can''t see the "blemish" that you speak of, but personally, I wouldn''t recut that beauty. I''m a sucker for native cuts and the symmetry of that one doesn''t look bad at all.
 
Welcome to colored stones lamowery! This is a warm and friendly place! We also love to help people spend their $$ on gemstones.

May I make a suggestion?

If you're just getting started @ looking for a sapphire, take your time! There are lots of them out there.

Not all cutters will recut other people's stones. Might be an idea to investigate that first. Mine was a recut by Jeff White. It went from 2.9 ct to 2.07 in the recut, so you have to be prepared to lose some weight in the cut. (BTW Jeff no longer does recuts of stones other than the ones he brings in himself).

At the hefty price per carat on this one, are you willing to buy it to just lose some of it?

For that kind of $$, you could probably get almost exactly what you want. I don't see a facet diagram to look at the meets either (that is where each angle of the facets meet each other: they should be clean and crisp). Might be an idea to ask NSC if there is one. Personally, I found a lot of NSC stones to be sloppily cut. Not all, but quite a few, IMHO, so it's worth really looking at the details of the stone before getting really engaged in it.

Here's hoping you enjoy this process! It's great fun to search and find 'the one' that speaks to you.

LS
 
Thought I''d add the picture.

B771_1ceylonsapphNSC.jpg
 
Thank you so far for the quick responses! We are going to request a facet diagram, but as we are new to this, not sure what we are looking for exactly. If I get one, I will post and see if there is further feedback.

Does anyone have a suggestion for where else we might look online? I have seen tons of stones in the stores in Manhattan, and the mark-up in the B&M stores in NYC for treated sapphires was higher than this natural at the NSC. As for online, I haven''t been able to find this size, color and cut, but then again, I am not sure where the best places to look would be. Does Jeff White have a website? Any other suggestions of cutters we should speak with?

Thank you for the warm welcome!
Lauren
 
That is a great color. And the cut is not bad either. You need to find out if the stone is eyeclean or not. I would shop around and take my time. There is a lot out there. But if you can afford it, and it has everything you want, it is one worth considering. I don''t think it needs to be recut. Also, if you have a stone shipped in, keep an open mind. They often do not look the same as they do in photos. I returned the first set of sapphires I bought in from the an internet company, and many other people on here have too. This is often a search, and patience is a virtue.
 
Welcome Lamowery!

A couple of observations if I may (1) when you see a picture blown up to this size, inclusions become very noticeable. I doubt very much whether, once it''s set and on your hand, you''d be aware of it - unless you are somebody who is super critical and once you know something is there it bugs you (2) that is a VERY expensive stone. Whilst the colour is gorgeous and the cut is just about ok, I''m pretty sure you could get a much better well cut gemstone for the same or less $.

In terms of having it re-cut - as said above, you will lose a proportion of the gemstone and because of where the imperfection is, I suspect you''d lose quite a lot. Couple that with the fact that the culet is off centered, you may end up having to have more cut to make it look correct. Therefore you will definitely have paid much more than the sapphire is worth.

Most importantly however, if you find somebody to re-cut your sapphire you''ll be very lucky. Most gemstone cutters won''t touch somebody elses stone because if something goes wrong in the process, their insurance probably won''t cover it. It may but it may not be worth the risk. Also the price they would ask for re-cutting probably wouldn''t make it worth their while. So if you do purchase a stone, especially at that price, I''d make sure you find an expert cutter beforehand who''d be willing to take on the project.
 
Jeff White's website is www.whitesgems.com.

Simplysapphires.com also has heated and some unheated material.

Richard Wise might also have some nicely cut material he can obtain for you.

I think your average B&M stores will have the highest prices.
 
its a nice stone and probably that price per carat because its so nice...which means the cut is probably better than most. however, do check richard wise at rwwise.com as he is mr sapphire in my book. call him. he''s great to talk with and will be honest with you.

movie zombie
 
It's also worth remembering that it's illegal to export rough from Sri Lanka (Ceylon) so cutters generally have to recut existing stones.

There are other sources, but Sri Lanka is a big one for sapphires (IIRC there are huge problems exporting from Madagascar at the moment as well).

Personally I'm not that picky on cut - for a stone that colour I would be VERY forgiving. But that is my take on it - other people have different criteria.

I also wouldn't recut that particular stone at all. From what I could see of the plots (it cut them off a bit on my computer) I wouldn't have any real issues - the meet points are okay, yes the culet is off-centre, but not so much as to really annoy me.

It is an expensive stone - but not one that I would consider as 'over-priced' - however it is worth thinking about how important heat-treated is or isn't too you.

I don't have any problem with gentle heat - but draw the line at any other treatments (BE etc). You will pay a premium for unheated. Is it worth it to you? It is not something that you can tell with the eye, so no one will know if your stone is heated or not.

You will also find a much bigger selection of stones than you will if unheated is a priority for you.

ETA: If you do go down the recut route, YOU will be responsible for insuring the stone (if you can find a company prepared to do that - which I haven't yet) not the cutter. Ditto for setting unless you use the vendor of the stone. It's worth looking into ways of getting insurance with an expensive stone: for example having the vendor set it into a cheap setting, insuring it as a ring and then having it reset into the setting you really want.
 
Thank you for the rec to speak with richard wise. i just got off the phone with him and he was extremely generous to talk to me, particularly about someone else''s stone! he doesn''t have exactly what i am looking for, but does have this stone:

http://www.rwwise.com/products/id%7C1040 - roughly similar price and size, but a color change stone. he said one of the best 2 he has ever seen.
anybody have an opinion on color changers?

( I am not sure how to paste photos in this yet...)

also, I was considering one other stone from NSC:
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Blue/Cushion/stoneid=B3164

we didn''t originally want to spend the extra $1000, but the price per carat is a bit less. They claim the price per carat for the first stone I linked in this thread was priced because of the color, but the color in this stone in person is almost identical in my opinion. is it better to spend more for a slightly larger stone with similar cut and color if the price per carat is lower? there also isn''t a blemish on the surface...

just wondering!
thanks!
Lauren
 
The second stone from NSC has a significant window. I would pass on it. For that kind of money, I would want better cutting.

The Richard Wise stone seems to have a lot of grey in it, but it could just be the picture. It is also cut very deeply. I personally like color change stones, but the purple modifier, IMO, should make it less expensive (sapphire experts correct me if I''m wrong). If I was spending thousands per carat on a stone, I would want it to be royal blue day and night. JMO.
 
I absolutely ADORE colour change stones - you get two looks for the price of one! However, if you''re really looking for a blue sapphire and want blue all the time, it''s not the stone for you. If you want something that goes purple in the evening (and I suspect it does) then this would be a dream. Can you ask Richard for a photo of the colour change so you can see how it changes?

I don''t see a window in gemstone in the 2nd NSC link (sorry TL) but I''m not an expert!

For me it would be the Richard Wise stone!

What a wonderful choice you''ve got ahead of you. I''m very green with envy!
 
Not loving the window on the NSC stone.
 
Laurin

Nice speaking to you by phone this morning. Pricescope is a great resource and the members have given you some excellent advise. Now that I had a chance to read your post, I have a couple of additional points so if you give me a call I will be glad to share it with you.

Best,
 
Date: 12/30/2008 12:17:16 PM
Author: lamowery
here is the facet report. we had nsc upload it for us....
let me know if anyone sees anything to be concerned about!
thanks!
Lauren
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com/Sapphires/Blue/Cushion/stoneid=B771
Click to expand...
I''m not loving the meets in some spots. If you look at the diagram, where the triangles "meet"...there are a few that don''t connect up at the points...

For that kind of $$ I''d want more precise cutting. But that''s just me. The colour is beautiful though.

LS
 
Would Palagems having anything worth considering as well?
 
are you referring to a window on the first or second nsc stone? can someone help me see it, or understand how to spot it?
 
the window is on the second one from NSC. On that stone, it is the area you can see through easier, and it looks like a star area.
 
Date: 12/30/2008 3:41:16 PM
Author: lamowery
are you referring to a window on the first or second nsc stone? can someone help me see it, or understand how to spot it?
Click to expand...
I''d like to know too because I pride myself on being able to spot windows and can''t see one on either!!!!! Maybe time to polish my contact lenses!
 
The outlined white area, I can easily see the bottom facets, and nothing reflecting back up from the stone in that area. The window might be minimized if setting it, but it's such a large amount of $$ we're talking here, that it would bother me. Compare this stone to the Richard Wise stone, there is no window on that stone, and you can see points of light reflected by the facets, and you can't see through to the bottom of the stone.

This isn't a huge window, but it's there. Sometimes this type of window is referred to as a fishbowl.

ETA: This stone is from Madagascar, and that is something to note. While it is a very nice color, Ceylon sapphires, like the first one, hold a bit more prestige.

The finest sapphires in the world come from Kashmir, #2 is Burma, and #3 is Ceylon (Sri Lanka).

sapp_window_bottom.JPG
 
Date: 12/30/2008 2:58:01 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Would Palagems having anything worth considering as well?
Click to expand...
That's what I was thinking - for unheated cushions this size there is a cornflower blue 3.99 that looks outstanding, a 3.33 traditional medium/dark blue that is promising, and a supposedly Kashmir-like 4.06 with no photo that I'd really like to ask about. Any of the vendors here can check on pricing (I like Gary Dutton). This one sounds expensive for 3 carats.

For this sort of stone (expensive and rare unheated top blue sapphire), cut details and precision cutting aren't important in the way that overall appearance is - color, outline, whether windowed or with visible inclusions, overall symmetry. If you want precision cutting, I think you're better off getting a heated stone.
 
Date: 12/30/2008 4:21:46 PM
Author: elmo

Date: 12/30/2008 2:58:01 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Would Palagems having anything worth considering as well?
Click to expand...
That''s what I was thinking - for unheated cushions this size there is a cornflower blue 3.99 that looks outstanding, a 3.33 traditional medium/dark blue that is promising, and a supposedly Kashmir-like 4.06 with no photo that I''d really like to ask about. Any of the vendors here can check on pricing (I like Gary Dutton). This one sounds expensive for 3 carats.

For this sort of stone (expensive and rare unheated top blue sapphire), cut details and precision cutting aren''t important in the way that overall appearance is - color, outline, whether windowed or with visible inclusions, overall symmetry. If you want precision cutting, I think you''re better off getting a heated stone.
Click to expand...
Yes, probably. I guess it just irks me that you can spend a lot of money on a nicely cut diamond, but if you want a nicely cut sapphire that is untreated and cut well, it seems like it''s impossible, unless you recut a native cut stone. Too bad that they cut these stones more for weight than beauty.
 
Thanks for that picture TL. It''s interesting because that''s not what I term a window so I guess it''s all to do with terminology. This is what I call a window - a HUGE window!
 
Date: 12/30/2008 4:21:46 PM
Author: elmo

Date: 12/30/2008 2:58:01 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Would Palagems having anything worth considering as well?
Click to expand...
That''s what I was thinking - for unheated cushions this size there is a cornflower blue 3.99 that looks outstanding, a 3.33 traditional medium/dark blue that is promising, and a supposedly Kashmir-like 4.06 with no photo that I''d really like to ask about. Any of the vendors here can check on pricing (I like Gary Dutton). This one sounds expensive for 3 carats.

For this sort of stone (expensive and rare unheated top blue sapphire), cut details and precision cutting aren''t important in the way that overall appearance is - color, outline, whether windowed or with visible inclusions, overall symmetry. If you want precision cutting, I think you''re better off getting a heated stone.
Click to expand...
Totally agree.

Frankly I would be horrified at the waste of material needed to precision cut the first stone.

Regarding Palagems, I''ve bought stones from them via Wink. They do carry some seriously expensive pieces - a 3ct to-die-for kashmir for $190k is one of theirs - but they are well worth a look. They also have stones that aren''t always obvious on the website.
 
Date: 12/30/2008 4:03:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
This stone is from Madagascar, and that is something to note. While it is a very nice color, Ceylon sapphires, like the first one, hold a bit more prestige.
Click to expand...
Ask and ye shall receive, Pala just uploaded a photo of the 4.06 I posted. Nice stone, from Madagascar!

For really fine color I don't think there's any real distinction in pricing for Sri Lanka and Madagascar origin. Madagascar is the new kid on the block but produces equally beautiful stones that can't be distinguished from Sri Lanka in many cases. If I could get the lab to put Sri Lanka on the report I would
1.gif
but it wouldn't affect a buying decision.
 
Date: 12/31/2008 9:47:04 AM
Author: elmo



Date: 12/30/2008 4:03:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
This stone is from Madagascar, and that is something to note. While it is a very nice color, Ceylon sapphires, like the first one, hold a bit more prestige.
Click to expand...
Ask and ye shall receive, Pala just uploaded a photo of the 4.06 I posted. Nice stone, from Madagascar!

For really fine color I don't think there's any real distinction in pricing for Sri Lanka and Madagascar origin. Madagascar is the new kid on the block but produces equally beautiful stones that can't be distinguished from Sri Lanka in many cases. If I could get the lab to put Sri Lanka on the report I would
1.gif
but it wouldn't affect a buying decision.
Click to expand...
I agree, and I actually like the Madagascar stones a bit better from what I've seen. However, Ceylon continues to holds that distinction. People get so excited when you say "I have a Ceylon sapphire" and it doesn't have the same ring as "I have a Madagascar sapphire."
emcrook.gif
Ajsgems.com has lots of beautiful colored, albeit heated, Madagascar sapphires.

As for a color comparison, here's a website that sells kashmir sapphires.

http://www.kashmirblue.com/

I like LG10280 on that page. It has the silk and super fine color that Kashmir is known for.
 
Date: 12/31/2008 10:56:29 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 12/31/2008 9:47:04 AM
Author: elmo




Date: 12/30/2008 4:03:08 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
This stone is from Madagascar, and that is something to note. While it is a very nice color, Ceylon sapphires, like the first one, hold a bit more prestige.
Click to expand...
Ask and ye shall receive, Pala just uploaded a photo of the 4.06 I posted. Nice stone, from Madagascar!

For really fine color I don''t think there''s any real distinction in pricing for Sri Lanka and Madagascar origin. Madagascar is the new kid on the block but produces equally beautiful stones that can''t be distinguished from Sri Lanka in many cases. If I could get the lab to put Sri Lanka on the report I would
1.gif
but it wouldn''t affect a buying decision.
Click to expand...
I agree, and I actually like the Madagascar stones a bit better from what I''ve seen. However, Ceylon continues to holds that distinction. People get so excited when you say ''I have a Ceylon sapphire'' and it doesn''t have the same ring as ''I have a Madagascar sapphire.''
emcrook.gif
Ajsgems.com has lots of beautiful colored, albeit heated, Madagascar sapphires.

As for a color comparison, here''s a website that sells kashmir sapphires.

http://www.kashmirblue.com/

I like LG10280 on that page. It has the silk and super fine color that Kashmir is known for.
Click to expand...
That''s cool to hear. My stone is Madagascar (first pic in Show me you Sapphires thread) and I always kind of figured it was the "red headed step child" in regards to sapphires.
 
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