A pleasure visiting AGA for an appraisal - kudos to Blue Nile

[Mikesgirl]

On Friday I visited the AGA with my six week old Blue Nile Signature Cut Diamond. I had the pleasure of spending 45 minutes with Michael Jordan (no, not THAT one), a warm and knowledgeable gentleman with 27 years experience in the trade. It was fascinating watching him work to appraise the diamond in the setting and nail the details that were later compared to the AGS cert that came with the stone.

He confirmed that I had the stone on the cert, confirmed that it was a beautiful cut (saying that he finds the majority of internet purchased diamonds have superior cut since that is what we net buyers are looking for) and graded it "approx 1A AGA grading".

Best of all, though, was his valuation of the stone, the reason for my visit. He estimated the low end purchase price for the ring from the net ($4000) to be higher than I paid ($3955). Considering the general feedback about Blue Nile, I thought this was worth reporting. He was also VERY impressed with how well the stone had been set and the quality of the melee diamonds in the band ("far above those you expect to find in stock bands") grading them as higher in color, clarity and weight than the "minimum of" statement in the sales documents. This was very unexpected.

Thank you, Mr. Jordan, for your time and expertise, and for confirming the faith I feel in Blue Nile (in spite of the beating it takes on this forum).

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Very

for you MG.

But do BN take a beating here?
I have never heard much bad PR?

And AGA - If you need to work for someone else (which would not be something I ever want to do) then Dave Atlas would have to be a first rate employer.
He is a very warm and gentle guy, but also a realist.
He is fair and always polite. Even when he disagrees 100% with you or an issue, he finds a balanced way to present the arguement (and you almost always agree with the point he makes without knowing that he made it).

So if you dealt with some one who works for Dave, I would expect that they were the right person doing the right job.

Summary - Dave is very wise. i expect wisdom from Daves associates

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

And do not forget Rich.
He is better looking

 

[oldminer]

Thanks again for the kind words.... We work to get this sort of "good press". In the end, all you get to keep is your reputation. Mike Jordan, Ed Skinner and Chris DiCamillo are the fellow Graduate Gemologists most clients get to see in my office. They have about 60 years of combined experience. They know just how to measure the needs of clients and have the desire to give the assistance people need to have in order to enjoy and understand their purchase.

Occasionally, we give people news they don't want to hear. We know how to tell them in a way that does not increase anger or frustration. There is no point in creating more anxiety. The result we want is for consumers, and sometimes even dealers, to get satisfaction from either an unintentional error or from the less usual happening where a seller has really made a mis-representation.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Dave is such a diplomat. He would make a good ambassador of the appraisal industry.

Actually, as head of the NAJA I guess he is just that.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hey Leonid, Garry and Dave are both showing up as "Rough Rocks".

I know Garry is a little rough at times, but after 2000+ posts I think he should have a little more polished designation.

And with that silky smooth polish that Dave has, he should have at least an AGS Ideal Polished Rock designation or something.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Oh Rich - you looking to stir Dave up?
The idea that he would submit himself for an AGS grading

A really good line is to say AGS was the first lab to give a cut grade on a certificate.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Who did give the first cut grade on a certificate?

I know Dave put out the AGA Cut Class system in the mid 80's. When did the AGS put out their system?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Rich you won a bootle of fine Aussie wine -you are correct it was Dave's AGA.
It is often noted (wrongly) in trade press that AGS were first.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Conditional on you coming to Australia and sharing it with me

 

[Richard Sherwood]

I guess I'll have to make the trip now that a free bottle of wine is waiting for me.

I'll take some of that Leffe beer and mussels while I'm at it.

 

[Mikesgirl]

-----------------------------
But do BN take a beating here?
I have never heard much bad PR?
-----------------------------

It is sometimes subtle (such as "not bad for a BN stone"), sometimes not so:

"Bluenile seems to be a good, safe, choice. However, you can get much better prices. Bluenile's are high to start with, and I doubt they will haggle much."

"I see Blue Nile as the worst deal out there."

Do a search for Blue Nile and read the threads. Some are old, but any newbie doing a search is likely to read them. So I thought it was useful to share that there are good deals to be had there. I haven't been doing this long enough to know whether the bad past press was inaccurate or whether BN is working to be more competitive, but did get the sense from the archives search that they weren't among the recommended providers. Clearly, it would be to their advantage to have someone participating in this forum.

 

[Mara]

Blue Nile IMO is a good choice for those people who don't feel comfortable using what they would consider an 'unknown' vendor. They have somewhat competitive pricing on certain stones (this has changed more so recently...when I was looking last year their prices were always higher), but I personally don't trust their 'cut grade' rating. You bought a Signature stone that worked out great for you. But run some of their other Sig stone numbers (I have done this) and while most will rate well on the HCA..sometimes you get a few that are in the high 2's on the HCA and I found one once that was a 4 on the HCA. Sure...we don't live and die by the HCA--but being that it is supposed to be a tool that helps weed out the duds, a 4 on the HCA IMO is a dud for sure if you haven't seen the stone and can't confirm that it's not. How do they classify their 'signature' cuts...it's not even really clear. They speak to the mainstream general public..those who are impressed with the fact that a stone is actually GIA graded and comes with a copy of that cert.




Also in general BN sells what I would term mainstream jewelry...for example, their studs alot of the time are overpriced and of mediocre quality (e.g. I SI2 studs with no info on cut) --when one could build their own online with superideal ACA's and get a G SI for the same price as BN's. Same with things like their diamond pendants. Build your own online with a known well-cut and better color/clarity stone for the same price or less. I see BN as mainstream...kind of like a big offline jeweler who deals in quantity vs your neighborhood jeweler who takes the time to get to know you. Also they don't have alot of the info that most of the online vendors that we talk about do...such as IdealScope or Bscope or even a REAL image of the stone! I surf around BN alot for fun but they don't have pictures of any of their stones, and alot of times don't even have a copy of the cert online.




So while I don't think that BN sells 'bad stones'...it's just that IMO there are other vendors who shine so much brighter and if I were going to put my money somewhere online, it would never be with BN if I wanted to really know what I'm getting. To each their own--and I'm so glad your stone worked out really well for you...my two cents..

 

[canadiangrrl]

Marty's right, BN does take somewhat of a beating here at times. I know that their price points are a little higher than the average online vendor, but they do have a great return policy and excellent customer service, from what I've been told. I have two girlfriends who've purchased diamonds/e-rings from them, and they have nothing but raves for BN. I actually really like their site, it's very user friendly and it seems tailored towards the average guy who's not overly obsessed with crown angles, bezel facets, and wavy girdles.

Plus, BN's fairly well known, so brand recognition probably helps to bolster the confidence of those consumers who may be understandably wary of dropping several grand online.

 

[Mara]

A few years back there was a WSJ article on some of the online diamond vendors...Diamond.Com, Blue Nile, Mondera and a few other well known ones. They did one of those 'secret' comparisons where someone bought a similar type stone from each of them and then returned them to see how customer service was, the stones were, etc etc.




I wish I still had this, it had interesting results. The big dogs scored alot lower than you would think...return policies were questioned...sometimes they got the runaround when trying to return a diamond. One had it graded independently and the cert was not matching. I don't recall who got what score but I recall being really surprised at how shady they were making it look to buy a diamond online. I remember thinking that I would think twice from buying from most of these guys. It was a few years back so maybe things have changed....but it was enlightening. Of course none of the small vendors were on there--it was only the really well known branded names since they got the most press and were names that general consumers (me back then!) would recognize.

 

[Mikesgirl]

Good points, all, Mara. What is WSJ and might there be a way to find that article? I'm awfully curious.

I did a search for studs a while back and BN was definitely less competitive. Their inventory was much more limited for build your own than other sites. I have not looked at their general jewelry inventory, but there were definitely as many dogs as beauties when I was searching through their diamond inventory. I get the feeling that they are trying to satisfy a broader market that just us super cut nuts, and that's probably good business. Without HCA and AGA, I don't think I would have felt comfortable shopping ANYWHERE online, and honestly don't feel real comfortable dealing with an individual sales rep because I always feel like I end up owing them a sale when they spend a lot of time with me looking for a stone.

What I did like about BN was their great search engine, their wide variety of stones, and there were enough with AGS certs in their signature collection and their general collection to run the HCA and the AGA numbers and find some good stones. Mine came up .7 on the HCA and 1A on the AGA. The 30 day return policy and accessibility for questions are also great. And I like that they own their inventory, they are not brokering stones.

Would I go to Whiteflash or Good Old Gold? You bet. But most of all, when recommending anyone for diamond buying (after telling them where I got mine) I tell them to go to pricescope.com and LEARN, LEARN, LEARN!

 

[pricescope]

Richard:

----------------
Hey Leonid, Garry and Dave are both showing up as 'Rough Rocks'.

I know Garry is a little rough at times, but after 2000+ posts I think he should have a little more polished designation.
----------------

I guess after so many posts one turns back into rough state

 

[Mara]

Hee Hee Leonid..they liquify.

MG...WSJ is the Wall Street Journal. I have looked for this article in the past online and not been successful. My fiance has a WSJ online sub and I couldn't even find it by searching their online archives. But I will see if I can try again at some point. I remember reading it in the actual paper..it was about 2 years ago.

 

[johnjay]

I recently got a e-ring from BlueNile. I've comparison shopped at different sites and stores and thought they had the best price.

I stumbled upon PriceScope trying to search for an appraiser. After reading the forums, I started feeling less confident that I got a good deal. However, subsequent searches on the sites mentioned here still leads me to believe BlueNile has good prices. The reason I want to get the ring appraised is to make sure I got what I ordered. The stone seems to be whiter than what the AGS report says, and I can't see the inclusion mentioned in the report.

Here are the details of the stone. Can someone help search for a similar cheaper stone? I got this for $5999, charged to a creditcard with free shipping.
Round 1.061cts H VS1
Cut: AGS Ideal 0
Polish,Symmetry,Proportions all ideal

D:61.8
T:56
C:35.0
P:40.9
pointed, thin to slightly thick, faceted girdle, negligible fuorescence

 

[canadiangrrl]

Hi Johnjay,

You won't be able to see inclusions in a VS1 stone without magnification. So don't make yourself mental looking for them.

As for the colour, an excellent cut can make an H face up more like a G. Your stone scores a 1.9 TIC on the HCA - Ex/Vg/Vg/Vg - which is certainly not too shabby at all.

It's also pretty difficult for most people to detect any yellow in an H unless it's side-by-side with a D,E, or F, or viewed unmounted.

You can do a search on Pricescope for similar stones. Some of the reputable vendors include Good Old Gold, Nice Ice, Dirt Cheap Diamonds, and Whiteflash. You may wish to consider dropping the clarity down to VS2 or SI1 - within your price range, you can likely get an H colour stone that has a bigger carat weight/larger diameter, and it will still be eyeclean. If you're happy with your ring, however, keep it.

As for an appraisal, I would definitely suggest getting one done. Rich Sherwood and Dave Atlas are both independent, professional appraisers who contribute frequently to this forum. I would have no hesitation in recommending either of them - Rich, based on personal experience, and Dave, based on the great feedback he gets on this forum.

Best of luck!

 

[Mara]

sounds like a lovely stone john...good eye

1.9 on the HCA is nothing to sneeze at...though i may have tried to go larger carat weight and gone SI1...but as canadian said..if you love it, that is all that matters!




i too would second an appraisal....it just helps for peace of mind and the expense is minimal when compared with the expense of the overall purchase.




good luck!!

 

[johnjay]

Hi Mara,
I saw in another thread that you had an appraisal done around the SF bay area. Is Nancy Stacy the only one you use? How much did it cost?

Hi canadiangrrl,
I was viewing the diamond using a 10x loupe. I thought you should be able to see VS1 inclusions with a loupe. For color, I was comparing it to a non-certified H color diamond. The one I got from BN looks like it's 2 shades whiter.

I did search the sites you listed and the prices look comparable to BN. However, they lack inventory. Nice Ice has what seems like good deals on some stones. But BN definitely has more choices.

I've read complaints that BN doesn't have certs available online. While doing my search for my stone, I found that 95% of their certs are available for viewing.

Maybe I had better luck with my search since I was only looking thru ideal cut diamonds with AGS reports and some GIA.

 

[Mara]

BN has certs for all their signature stones...and for some of the other ones--esp AGS...and you can get angles off those. But alot of their stones are GIA graded and angles aren't on there, nor does BN always put up a copy of the lab report and/or Sarin. They should!




John--yes we used Nancy Stacy. She was great. She recommended also an appraiser in SF but I don't have their name. So if that is closer to you, give Nancy a call and see who she'd recommend. She's very forthright and honest--and pretty much said that she wouldn't recommend that many ind appraisers in the area who were worth their salt! She said there was one in SF and maybe one in Fremont...I think. But anyway, she was $125 per hour I think. For just a stone...it will probably take about an hour. If you take her the loose stone and then the finished ring later, maybe 1.5 hours. We took her the loose stone, had her appraise it, assure us it was good...then we took it back, got it set..and brought it back for the 'final' appraisal which we then used for insurance. She says she sees alot of internet purchases so she's familiar with the great deals online as well.

You need to call in advance for an appt...give it 1-2 weeks unless she can squeeze you in. We highly recommend her and loved her open, honest attitude. Good luck!

 

[aljdewey]

I found an H, VS2, 1.055ct H&A for $5761


61%, 55.4%, 34.3', 41.0', pointed, no fluor




Also found a G, VS2, 1.05, H&A for $6022

 

[lmurden]

Hi All,

I am new to pricescope and diamond talk and have found both of these sights to be extremely helpful, but I must say that I too am tired of the bad mouthing that Blue Nile gets. My boyfriend has made several purchases (diamond pendants, diamond earrings, and pearl earrings) from BN and they are great! I can't tell you how many people tell me how pretty my diamonds are. I've even had ab exchange and have had no problems.

My boyfriend is currently considering purchasing my engagement ring from BN or White flash. I have to say that he feels more comfortable with BN because of the customer service, quality, and the 30 day return policy.

Also I spoke to a BN representative and she said that when they first came to the internet they use to sell EGL diamonds and after six months they stopped selling them because they were to inconsistent. I just had to get that off my chest. Thanks again.

 

[Nicrez]

LM, great to have you on board!




Just wanted to say that when people learn about diamonds to the extent that they do on this board, Blue Nile becomes a lesser priority, because of several reasons: Each market has it's buyers, so many people will find comfort in shopping at Blue Nile, Tiffany's, Cartier, Wal-Mart, etc.




People on PriceScope come to get indepth knowledge of stones, and as such, require more detailed information about their purcahses than BN can currently offer. Many vendors here on PS are very very knowledgeable and can deal with the high demands of inofrmation for each stone requested in ways that BN can't. Simply because BN has so much business, discerning customers will not get the responses and competitive prices that they know exist. If you don't know they exist, I suppose it doesn't matter.




I initially was looking for a princess cut stone from BN. I wouldn't go ANYWHERE else, until I found this site. I currently own a Radiant diamond, graded 2A, with a fairly competitive price to boot. I didn't even get it online. But I learned enough to know the cut qualities of the stone, enough to ask for lots of tests and documentation on our stone, and enough to know market prices and availability of such a stone.




To me, shopping at BN will most likely never happen for me. I am now used to the quality, the information, the service and custom choices I am afforded by PS vendors. My next diamond purchase will be from a vendor who can absolutely put my mind at ease about my purchase with them, unlike BN can. I don't like ready made items whose quality I don't have control over, whose sidestones may have uncustomizable or documented clarity or color.




But if BN can afford me the SAME service, customization and quality and competitive prices that these PS vendors can, I would give it a shot....

 

[oldminer]

I used to be an AGS Supplier Member. My firm became an AGS Supplier in 1973, I believe. I became a CG, AGS in 1974. GIA treated the cut of diamonds much less vigorously than AGS which already had a decent system for grading round diamonds, so, of course, I was influenced more by the AGS approach. The 1970's system was not a lot different than the present AGS system in that the worst feature of a diamond set the cut grade. It is easy enough, but wrong to grade every defect as equal to any other defect. A defect may be important, moderately important or unimportant. Not every cutting defect ought to set the overall grade...That's one of the things that led me into perfecting the AGA Cut Class sytem.

I used the logic of the actual market. What made a big difference to appearance or value? What was visibly different versus invisibly different? Those kinds of thought processes. I also made adjustments for our lack of accurate measuring of angles and percentages back then. We used manual tools, not Sarin or Ogi. I didn't want to kill a cut grade based on false measurments. That's how my rules of usage came to be printed. They gave the lattitude necessary to make decent decisions based on a total picture and allowed the less important defects to count less in the overall grading.

The AGA fancy shape grading system came out of the GIA and AGS approaches combined with a lot of diamond buying we did back then for our own uses. I asked dealers what was important to them and what had an effect on pricing. In the end, I was able to develop the AGA fancy grading that we still do today. Why the slowness on the part of GIA or AGS to establish better fancy shape standards? I know they want to do it right, but maybe the status quo worked well enough for a long time. Why rock the boat? I had much more to gain by being first and way less to loose. It is rather easy to see the reasons. I don't consider it evil, just smart business not to rush into changing something that was working okay for so many sellers. AGS claims on their lab website they were the first. I don't want to start a fight with such a large entity and so well respected. Being first, or being second, is way better than being last. I can live with a degree of nonsense as my friends know how long we have worked in this area of knowledge.

No doubt, the AGS Lab has made a much larger impact with their cut grading than my own AGA lab. We are regional and AGS is national in scope. One thing on the plus side, the publicity paid for by AGS has made people far more aware of the AGA system and the ability of our lab to provide some unique services. AGS and GIA will eventually have fancy shape cut grading systems. Will they be accessible to consumers and the regular trade? Will they be confusing or still subjective? Will they take into account the beauty aspects of fancy shapes that are very much a part of the picture? We'll soon see. Some of the AGA Cut Class sytem will be a part of these new systems, as you cannot define a fine fancy shape if it does not have beautiful outline, durability, and decent size for its weight.

We are almost done with the task of defining all that it takes to make a super fancy shape diamond. I am looking forward to it. There is much more left to question and accomplish.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[aljdewey]

I don't know where along the way it became deemed "bashing" to note differences in product/services with vendors, but it shouldn't be considered so.




If I tell you that you won't find a (genuine) Rolex watch at Wal-mart because they don't market to that segment, that's not bashing them. It's acknowledging their position in the market.




If I tell you that you can't find escargot or filet mignon at the local diner, that doesn't mean I've "bashed" them or that the food they serve is bad....it merely acknowledges that they don't cater to those who want higher end meals.




If I tell you that you cannot get a new 2004 BMW for $25,000, that doesn't mean I'm *bashing* BMW or implying that they are overpriced compared to a Honda Accord. It just means they don't cater to the same market and don't provide the same product.




When I was shopping, I called Blue Nile (along with many other vendors). Their advantage was they had more name recognition than many of the others, and they offered stones that were likely better than mall grade.


Their disadvantages were not enough information about cut, inability to provide pictures/info that other vendors could readily provide, and their pricing *was* higher than all of the regular vendors that frequent PS.




Those are facts. Noting those facts doesn't mean I'm bashing BN. For those are budget conscious, there ARE better values to be had. For those who want a name they've heard of, it's tough to beat BN.




BN has it's niche in the market.....but it's important to recognize that many of the cut-freaks on PS don't fall into that market because of their limitations. That doesn't make BN bad....it just means they aren't this group's first pick.

 

[lmurden]

Thanks for the in depth reply. All I can say is that when I am wearing the product I've only gotten rave reviews. I've also stopped people in their tracks when they talk about not going any lower than a G or H color or VS clarity because all of BN preset diamond jewelry is I color and SI clarity

P.S. Of course when I get my engagement ring the diamond will come with a GIA or AGS certificate and I will shop around at many internet venders.

Thanks again

 

[Mara]

Hear, Hear Al...




Blue Nile is good at certain things...I buy some silver from them, I would buy pearls, and maybe some fashion stuff. But never diamonds...why? Because they don't give me the info I need to feel comfortable with that purchase. They were on my list when we first started looking, along with Diamond.Com, but now my standards are much higher and I require alore more than JUST a certification to buy a stone. I want pictures of the stone, reports on it's light return, pictures of inclusions. BN could not give me that.




Most all diamonds are pretty, and everyone is going to compliment a sparkly stone. But there are nuances in the cuts and the sparkle that your average eyeball won't see. Some of us like that additional stuff that lets us know that our diamonds are more than the average sparkle. I wore a mediocre cut stone for a while and got compliments. I wear a spectacularly cut stone now and I get more compliments. Do I think people know the difference? No. But I do...I can see it. Personally I know BN does carry some really nice stuff in their inventory, but it's mixed in with some mediocre cuts. I would rather shop with a vendor who I know only carries the top notch stuff rather than caters to the masses. But that is just me. Others may not agree.




The market is big enough for both a store like a Target and a store like a Williams Sonoma in terms of kitchen items. Both companies are doing well in their own right. The same can be said for the diamond industry. I'd rather go to a specialty store for certain purchases...and a Target for more general items. To each their own.