A Feather Question

[daisygrl]

I have a diamond at hand that has a small feather at the girdle. The diamond is VS2 and the feather is able to be felt with a finger/nail. Basically, a crack you can feel, not just see. Would it pose future problems with the structure of the diamond? Would this be acceptable to most of you or not? I should add that the stone has several small feathers, none of which can be seen under 10x magnification or felt.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Can you post the GIA report?
A VS2 sized feather ( in general) would not be perceptible with your fingernail.....

 

[daisygrl]

Yes, I am attaching the picture. It is the circled feather that can be felt. The diamond was owned prior for 3-5 years.

 

[yssie]

It may have enlarged with use. I’ve had this happen (albeit with an SI2).

Or is the report stating VS2 recent?

 

[daisygrl]

It may have enlarged with use. I’ve had this happen (albeit with an SI2).

Or is the report stating VS2 recent?

The report stating VS2 is very recent, from a month ago. So, perhaps, 3 years ago, the feather was not as prominent on the outside. Hard to tell. I just find it unusual for a VS2 clarity feather to be perceptible. Is it possible, it can enlarge in the future given it is VS2?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Do you have a microscope or high powered loupe?

 

[daisygrl]

Do you have a microscope or high powered loupe?

Yes, both. But I do not know how to take a pic of it with the iPhone.

 

[Rockdiamond]

It may have enlarged with use. I’ve had this happen (albeit with an SI2).

People definitely damage diamonds during wear....
But generally, not by enlarging an existing imperfection.
Certainly not an internal imperfection.
I'd love to see exact specific pics showing this! It's extremely rare, and definitely interesting!

Yes, both. But I do not know how to take a pic of it with the iPhone.

I was thinking of inspecting it to make sure what you're feeling is the feather notated on the GIA report. Which you may have done already......

 

[daisygrl]

People definitely damage diamonds during wear....
But generally, not by enlarging an existing imperfection.
Certainly not an internal imperfection.
I'd love to see exact specific pics showing this! It's extremely rare, and definitely interesting!



I was thinking of inspecting it to make sure what you're feeling is the feather notated on the GIA report. Which you may have done already......

I have done it several times, as I truly wanted the stone. I have even cleaned it (scrubbed it, lol) in case it was just some dirt. It is, indeed, the crack (same size, shape, and position as the report).

 

[yssie]

People definitely damage diamonds during wear....
But generally, not by enlarging an existing imperfection.
Certainly not an internal imperfection.
I'd love to see exact specific pics showing this! It's extremely rare, and definitely interesting!



I was thinking of inspecting it to make sure what you're feeling is the feather notated on the GIA report. Which you may have done already......

I may have chipped the feather(s) open. My word “enlargement” might have been inappropriate. I’ll see if I can get some pics. 2.7 GIA SI2 with a cluster of feathers at one edge of the girdle, worn regularly for over a decade, reset multiple times. My thinking is that it was damage waiting to happen.

 

[Rockdiamond]

My thinking is that it was damage waiting to happen.

I totally get this! It makes total sense.
Experience has shown me that breaking or damaging a diamond happens in one of two ways.
Either a freak occurrence - hitting it exactly the right way, with exactly the right force. In a case like that, a Flawless diamond has- and have broken.
The other is long term abrasion. But really long term. Decades.
Maybe a really hard decade might do it
And maybe the proximity of the feathers was a factor- ...
I guess my point is: as a lover of certain imperfect diamonds, I use my own experience (and that of others I trust) to be able to buy and sell imperfect diamonds. Some people actually like a diamond with a black spot in it....we can love certain diamonds, even if they are imperfect.

There's not a single participant here for which I have more respect than @yssie.....and I know she's got a great eye for details.
I am open to new ideas...it's not outside the realm of possibility that wear and the feathers resulted in abrasion.
As a general rule, I feel it's a mistake to raise durability concerns about the vast majority of diamonds graded SI2 by GIA or AGSL.
Not to say that many SI2 diamonds are worth buying.
Many SI2 diamonds.....I'd even say most SI2 Diamonds suck. But not for reasons of durability.

Same with this VS2 that has a feather that can be felt with a fingernail. Maybe standards are changing.
Sounds like @daisygrl really made sure it's not gunk or something else. In my experience, VS2 means it's pretty insignificant.

How large a stone is this?.

 

[daisygrl]

I totally get this! It makes total sense.
Experience has shown me that breaking or damaging a diamond happens in one of two ways.
Either a freak occurrence - hitting it exactly the right way, with exactly the right force. In a case like that, a Flawless diamond has- and have broken.
The other is long term abrasion. But really long term. Decades.
Maybe a really hard decade might do it
And maybe the proximity of the feathers was a factor- ...
I guess my point is: as a lover of certain imperfect diamonds, I use my own experience (and that of others I trust) to be able to buy and sell imperfect diamonds. Some people actually like a diamond with a black spot in it....we can love certain diamonds, even if they are imperfect.

There's not a single participant here for which I have more respect than @yssie.....and I know she's got a great eye for details.
I am open to new ideas...it's not outside the realm of possibility that wear and the feathers resulted in abrasion.
As a general rule, I feel it's a mistake to raise durability concerns about the vast majority of diamonds graded SI2 by GIA or AGSL.
Not to say that many SI2 diamonds are worth buying.
Many SI2 diamonds.....I'd even say most SI2 Diamonds suck. But not for reasons of durability.

Same with this VS2 that has a feather that can be felt with a fingernail. Maybe standards are changing.
Sounds like @daisygrl really made sure it's not gunk or something else. In my experience, VS2 means it's pretty insignificant.

How large a stone is this?.

Yes, that is what I thought. I expected more from VS2, that is why it was so disappointing - which brought me here to ask. Rest of the feathers are not easily visible under 10x. It is 2.93ct. My concern is that it might impact either selling or upgrading the stone in the future.

 

[yssie]

Same with this VS2 that has a feather that can be felt with a fingernail. [...] In my experience, VS2 means it's pretty insignificant.

Agree. I really wouldn't expect a GIA VS2 (with recent report) to have overtly visible or touchable inclusions. Sure, I've seen a couple VS2 specimens that made me wonder what the graders might have had for breakfast that day - but they're definitely the exceptions to the rule... I know grading standards ebb and flow but normalizing fingernail-feelable (that came out really wrong lol) feathers in a VS2 would be closer to standards falling off a cliff, IMO, and I've not seen anything to suggest that's happening. But I'm not a professional obviously.

I totally get this! It makes total sense.
Experience has shown me that breaking or damaging a diamond happens in one of two ways.
Either a freak occurrence - hitting it exactly the right way, with exactly the right force. In a case like that, a Flawless diamond has- and have broken.
The other is long term abrasion. But really long term. Decades.
Maybe a really hard decade might do it
And maybe the proximity of the feathers was a factor- ...
I guess my point is: as a lover of certain imperfect diamonds, I use my own experience (and that of others I trust) to be able to buy and sell imperfect diamonds. Some people actually like a diamond with a black spot in it....we can love certain diamonds, even if they are imperfect.

There's not a single participant here for which I have more respect than @yssie.....and I know she's got a great eye for details.
I am open to new ideas...it's not outside the realm of possibility that wear and the feathers resulted in abrasion.
As a general rule, I feel it's a mistake to raise durability concerns about the vast majority of diamonds graded SI2 by GIA or AGSL.
Not to say that many SI2 diamonds are worth buying.
Many SI2 diamonds.....I'd even say most SI2 Diamonds suck. But not for reasons of durability.

I bought my stone from a very reputable vendor - who advised me, at time of purchase, that although it was clean and undamaged at that time, it carried some risk of not remaining so with use. I was hopeful it would defy expectations - it didn't. That's on me and no regrets.

I'm easy on jewellery in general and I inspect my pieces thoroughly, and none of my other diamonds stones show evidence of wear (from their time with me). But none of my other diamonds have been ridden as hard or reset as much. Last reset was in 2015, into an earring - my vendor alerted me to nicks on the girdle at that time.

I noticed the star facet damage a year-ish ago. This stud went through *something* traumatic at that time, something that bent the post pretty significantly... I have no recollection of what happened which is worrying in and of itself! I sent it out for repair. I've decided that not going to do anything about it, the diamond still functions perfectly well as a stud; if it gets worse one day I'll just buy a replacement. Not another SI2 with grade-making feathers though To be perfectly honest I've gotten spoilt by the mind-clean-ness of VS1+. But I don't recommend that anyone else spend on such high clarity, it's genuinely unnecessary outside of personal mind-clean preferences.

GIA - Report Check

www.gia.edu

Star facet chip correspond exactly to the longer feather in the crown plot at 3 o'clock. Girdle nicks are at the clump of upper half feathers in the crown plot at between 8-9 o'clock and (which corresponds to the feathers in the pavilion plot just under 3 o'clock).The stone has no other surface-breaching issues. Location could be coincidental but that seems exceedingly unlikely.

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[yssie]

@daisygrl, my stone is an SI2 with an old report, not a VS2 with a recent report. So it might be a curiosity to you but it's not relevant.

If you can feel the feather in this stone, and you're confident that what you're feeling is the feather, then I wouldn't buy it unless it's discounted from retail. If you're paying a VS2 price you should get what most would consider "standard VS2 clarity". If it's preloved, or discounted for some other reason, then IMO the line moves - how far it moves depends on your personal preferences and tolerances.

Now that you know it's there, you won't be able to forget about it. But if it's under a prong so you can't actually feel it - would that be sufficiently mind-clean for you?

 

[daisygrl]

@yssie I am, unfortunately, 100% certain that what I feel is the crack. It is touching the girdle and is of the same shape and size (examined by 10x and 30x loupes, and a microscope, plus my eagle eye) that it cannot be anything else. As long as feathers are to the side and not on the table and I do not see them, the stone is "mind-clean" to me. My concern is that it can impact either a resale value of the stone or its upgrade (upgrade might be rejected due to the crack.) Or that the crack can get worse.

I would not feel comfortable putting a prong over it as the pressure might worsen size of the feather over time. I was drawn to the stone due to its somewhat rare size and having such a clean table, which is rare for VS2. I definitely did not expect to actually feel the feather, which is why I soaked the stone in Dawn for a couple of hours, in case it was dirt. I was in disbelief. Thus, I decided to return it and my search can continue.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have felt chips and shown clients they can feel things with their finger nail on the girdle that they have difficulty seeing with a good loupe. By definition a feather breaks the surface so you should be able to feel it.

 

[yssie]

I have felt chips and shown clients they can feel things with their finger nail on the girdle that they have difficulty seeing with a good loupe. By definition a feather breaks the surface so you should be able to feel it.

Curious about this.

GIA inclusions definition does not specify that feather must be surface breaking. Which is odd if required as part of the definition, because they DO specify surface-breaching for other inclusion types.

Diamond Inclusions Defined - GIA 4Cs

In the first of a two part series, we explore a diamond’s internal characteristics or those that extend into the diamond from its surface – these are called diamond inclusions.

4cs.gia.edu

However, I see some older references to this GIA definition:
"a separation or break that reaches the surface, and is often white and feathery or shiny in appearance."

So has GIA changed the definition of "feather" over the years?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Curious about this.

GIA inclusions definition does not specify that feather must be surface breaking. Which is odd if required as part of the definition, because they DO specify surface-breaching for other inclusion types.

Diamond Inclusions Defined - GIA 4Cs

In the first of a two part series, we explore a diamond’s internal characteristics or those that extend into the diamond from its surface – these are called diamond inclusions.

4cs.gia.edu

However, I see some older references to this GIA definition:
"a separation or break that reaches the surface, and is often white and feathery or shiny in appearance."

So has GIA changed the definition of "feather" over the years?

Yup, it is a crack. If the crack has some missing on the surface it is outlined in green around the red.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Diamond Feather Inclusions: A Durability Risk?

When is a Feather a Durability Risk? There have been multiple forum discussions about feathers and durability. In an effort to alleviate Pricescope poster concerns, we have asked several participating diamond […]

www.pricescope.com

 

[daisygrl]

Diamond Feather Inclusions: A Durability Risk?

When is a Feather a Durability Risk? There have been multiple forum discussions about feathers and durability. In an effort to alleviate Pricescope poster concerns, we have asked several participating diamond […]

www.pricescope.com

Thanks for sharing, Garry. The article makes it clearer. I believe what I was feeling wit the fingertip was an opening on the surface (the girdle edge). I am calling it "an open wound."

 

[headlight]

In the article with experts as contributors, take notice of what Nancy Stacy, GG, said about a notch. Sounds similar to what @daisygrl has described.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks for sharing, Garry. The article makes it clearer. I believe what I was feeling wit the fingertip was an opening on the surface (the girdle edge). I am calling it "an open wound."

You cracked me up

 

[Rockdiamond]

@yssie - the fact the stone was set repeatedly certainly contributed to any potential damage.

Yup, it is a crack.

From my perspective- explained above - this is an alarmist and misleading manner to describe the vast majority of feathers.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

@yssie - the fact the stone was set repeatedly certainly contributed to any potential damage.



From my perspective- explained above - this is an alarmist and misleading manner to describe the vast majority of feathers.

Is that a wise crack David?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Location could be coincidental but that seems exceedingly unlikely.

Basically, it's an academic discussion given the circumstances.
I truly wish we could have a definitive answer.

@yssie ...if I could ask..
As someone who's owned an SI2 diamond with a plot that looks like a battlefield: would you purchase another hypothetical SI2 with imperfections as severe as the 2.69ct in the pics?

 

[yssie]

@yssie ...would you purchase another hypothetical SI2 with imperfections as severe as the 2.69ct in the pics?

I wouldn’t. But at the same time I have no regrets about buying that stone, it was a good choice for my budget and my priorities and my setting plan at that time

 

[daisygrl]

I was able to take a pic of the feather (which now looks like a chip but it is not, yet.) It is perceptible with a nail. Is this typical of VS2?

 

[Rockdiamond]

It's truly not....responsible to make any sort of definitive answer.
It looks larger than a VS2 sized imperfection- but, as I said, it's not possible to accurately assess this through pics.

Let's get to a few other basics:
Did you submit to, and receive the diamond from GIA yourself?
If not, is there a laser inscription?
The questions are about making sure the diamond in the pics matches the GIA report you have in hand.

My concern is that it can impact either a resale value of the stone or its upgrade (upgrade might be rejected due to the crack.) Or that the crack can get worse.

I have always felt semantics were important.
Calling a feather a "crack" imparts a meaning which doesn't really apply to a diamond.
The heat and pressure of the cutting wheel far exceed anything you could do wearing it.
Far more common is damage done during setting- or other jewelry work ( one time our bench accidentally damaged the culet with a laser during another part of manufacture. It required a total recut)
We have dealt with many diamonds which had been damaged by consumers over the years- I can't recall one whose damage resulted from a feather that enlarged.

 

[daisygrl]

It's truly not....responsible to make any sort of definitive answer.
It looks larger than a VS2 sized imperfection- but, as I said, it's not possible to accurately assess this through pics.

Let's get to a few other basics:
Did you submit to, and receive the diamond from GIA yourself?
If not, is there a laser inscription?
The questions are about making sure the diamond in the pics matches the GIA report you have in hand.



I have always felt semantics were important.
Calling a feather a "crack" imparts a meaning which doesn't really apply to a diamond.
The heat and pressure of the cutting wheel far exceed anything you could do wearing it.
Far more common is damage done during setting- or other jewelry work ( one time our bench accidentally damaged the culet with a laser during another part of manufacture. It required a total recut)
We have dealt with many diamonds which had been damaged by consumers over the years- I can't recall one whose damage resulted from a feather that enlarged.

The diamond is from a very legit and a well known (to Pricescope-rs) jewelry company. It has a laser inscription that matches the certificate. It is 100% legit and same diamond as the GIA lab certificate that assigned it a VS2 grade. Looking for the laser inscription is how I discovered the feather at the girdle edge.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The diamond is from a very legit and a well known (to Pricescope-rs) jewelry company. It has a laser inscription that matches the certificate. It is 100% legit and same diamond as the GIA lab certificate that assigned it a VS2 grade. Looking for the laser inscription is how I discovered the feather at the girdle edge.

This is an AGS not GIA report