A different parenting view...

[Pandora II]

Date: 10/21/2009 10:54:30 AM
Author: kennedy

My understanding is that the co-sleeping statistics you're referring to don't take into account HOW the parents were sharing their bed. That means that parents who were drunk, on drugs, obese, sleeping on an unsafe surface like a couch or chair are all included in the statistics, thus making it look like co-sleeping is dangerous. I would be much more interested in statistics that separate out parents who consciously and safely choose to co-sleep from those who co-sleep irresponsibly. The AAP guidelines on co-sleeping are tantamount to throwing out the baby with the bath water -- rather than educating parents on safe ways to share their bed, they come out with a single uniform message that all co-sleeping is all bad. As Pandora points out, there is some compelling research to suggest that safe co-sleeping actually reduces the risk of SIDS. Dr James Mckenna, who has been leading federally funded research on sleep and SIDS at the University of Notre Dame for 25 years, says that societies with the highest incidence of co-sleeping actually have the lowest rate of SIDS.

I also wanted to add that 4 months old seems awfully young to cut off an infant from all night feedings. It seems like a bit of a leap to say that nursing a very young baby at night will teach him/her to use food as comfort later in life. Has anyone done any research on this? Seems to me breastfeeding and comfort go hand in hand -- just watch a distraught baby begin to nurse: does the baby calm down solely because of the nutrition or because both the milk and the closeness to mom is comforting? I have no doubts my daughter still very much needed to night nurse at 4 months and beyond. Was it only because she needed the calories? Probably not -- it was likely a combination of being hungry and wanting to be close -- but I don't have any worries that this will result in some kind of eating disorder when she's older.

I really do appreciate your expertise as a pediatrician, but I just wanted to comment on these two points.

Exactly. Research was done in the UK on this and the results were than co-sleeping is no more dangerous than putting a baby in a cot when you take out the contra-indications and when the mother is also breastfeeding, it was safer because of the way in which a breastfeeding mother sleeps - facing towards child, arm above head prevent child moving up the bed etc - which is very different from the position a bottle feeding mother will use.

For breastfeeding mothers we are encouraged to bed-share in hospital. Even on ICU the baby slept in my bed with me.

My understanding is that the USA and UK have different guidelines.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/21/2009 11:02:33 AM
Author: Pandora II

Exactly. Research was done in the UK on this and the results were than co-sleeping is no more dangerous than putting a baby in a cot when you take out the contra-indications and when the mother is also breastfeeding, it was safer because of the way in which a breastfeeding mother sleeps - facing towards child, arm above head prevent child moving up the bed etc - which is very different from the position a bottle feeding mother will use.

For breastfeeding mothers we are encouraged to bed-share in hospital. Even on ICU the baby slept in my bed with me.

My understanding is that the USA and UK have different guidelines.

Nope, not in my local area, so I guess the US is different. They did not want the baby anywhere in my bed should I even look drowsy. The baby was to be in its cot when I slept.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Well all I can say is that bed sharing did not work in our hospital. See my story about the baby with the broken skull. We never advised it, but the nurses never said anything to the parents if they did it until that happened.

If a parent does co-bed, I don''t tell them NOT to do it. I tell them the AAP guidelines do not recommend it. I than tell them I realize it is common in several cultures and that I realize that people are still going to do it. I than give them all the education mentioned above and tell them if they are going to co-sleep to keep those points in mind. But at least in the US, it is considered a risk, and I feel it is my job to let the parents know that.

Look, I was just trying to explain why the current guidelines exist because I felt like that side of the story needed to be represented. I realize not everyone is going to agree with them. Not everyone agrees with the AAP either, but I do like the way them come up with their guidelines, and I have seen them change more than once after objections have been made. For example, they softened their stance on using a pacifier to prevent SIDS after several pediatricians objected because of the interference with breast feeding and risk of carries.

And 4 months is the age physiology that an infant can sleep through the night without eating and grow well (assuming they have no medical problems). If I had a child, that is the age I would start spacing their feeds. My BF''s sister started at birth and had them sleeping through the night at 7 weeks of age, that was a little extreme for me the other way, but hey her kids are going well (but she wasn''t able to make enough milk to breast feed). My boyfriend for the longest time told me we were doing her plan. It has taken me 2 years, but I have finally helped him see that it is not what I feel is best, and that I want to take a different approach.

 

[fieryred33143]

Date: 10/21/2009 11:39:48 AM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 10/21/2009 11:02:33 AM
Author: Pandora II

Exactly. Research was done in the UK on this and the results were than co-sleeping is no more dangerous than putting a baby in a cot when you take out the contra-indications and when the mother is also breastfeeding, it was safer because of the way in which a breastfeeding mother sleeps - facing towards child, arm above head prevent child moving up the bed etc - which is very different from the position a bottle feeding mother will use.

For breastfeeding mothers we are encouraged to bed-share in hospital. Even on ICU the baby slept in my bed with me.

My understanding is that the USA and UK have different guidelines.

Nope, not in my local area, so I guess the US is different. They did not want the baby anywhere in my bed should I even look drowsy. The baby was to be in its cot when I slept.

Same here. I moved Sophia into my hospital bed because I was doing the side lying position and then we both napped. My FI was there and awake (watching TV). I got into a lot of trouble because of it when the nurses came in to the room.

 

[E B]

Date: 10/21/2009 10:54:30 AM
Author: kennedy

I also wanted to add that 4 months old seems awfully young to cut off an infant from all night feedings.

I have a four-month-old that still eats once or more often, twice a night. He comfort nurses during the day, but at night, it's all business. He often wakes up STARVING and will 'empty' a side in a matter of minutes, falling back to sleep the second he's done. I figure as long as he needs the night feeds, he'll get them. He's growing so fast but isn't too big- around 50th percentile for weight. If I cut him off, there'd be hell to pay. This kid loves to eat.

 

[TravelingGal]

I do think all kids all different. My ped is amazing and said the same thing ltl did about physiologically not needing the food in the middle of the night at 4 months. I think most moms (including myself) are constantly worried that the kid isn''t getting enough to eat so this milestone often gets bypassed. I think it''s much easier for formula moms who can quantitively measure how much the kid is getting each day. Plus that BM is more easily digestible than formula.

My BFF kids were exclusively breastfed but also stopped getting night feedings at around the 4 month mark.

 

[Mara]

Ltl I know that a few of my friends had infants who were sleeping through the night without feeding at about 3-4 months..so it definitely does happen. Like most things though, I think it depends on the child and the family. Those are the friends I am begging to PLEASE TELL ME YOUR SECRETS.

Bribery with baked goods is fairly effective.

I believe in our hospital they will not let the babies sleep in the bed with you...but they will bring a bassinet in for the baby if you want them near you.

 

[E B]

Date: 10/21/2009 2:14:33 PM
Author: TravelingGal

My BFF kids were exclusively breastfed but also stopped getting night feedings at around the 4 month mark.

Did she stop giving them night feedings or did they just not 'request' them anymore?

I'm not sure how I'd eliminate night time feedings even if I wanted to. I assume if he's emptying the breast, he's hungry- but even if he's doing it for comfort, how would I know? I can't imagine letting him CIO because there's a chance he's doing it for comfort. What if he's actually hungry?

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/21/2009 2:34:08 PM
Author: EBree

Date: 10/21/2009 2:14:33 PM
Author: TravelingGal

My BFF kids were exclusively breastfed but also stopped getting night feedings at around the 4 month mark.

Did she stop giving them night feedings or did they just not ''request'' them anymore?

I''m not sure how I''d eliminate night time feedings if I wanted to. I assume if he''s emptying the breast, he''s hungry- but even if he''s doing it for comfort, how would I know? I can''t imagine letting him CIO because there''s a chance he''s doing it for comfort. What if he''s actually hungry?

She stopped. The girl at a full 3 months (meaning right into the 4th) and the boy at a full 4.

She did CIO, which did not take long. Who knows...they may have been hungry, but I also believe you can train your body quickly to adjust. It''s like adults...if you''re used to having a midnight snack, soon you feel like you really need that midnight snack. But you don''t really NEED it.

JMHO, but I''ve said on this thread many many times, all kids will turn out fine and if the mother is happy with what she is doing and the kid is healthy, that is the most important thing.

 

[E B]

Date: 10/21/2009 2:38:49 PM
Author: TravelingGal

She stopped. The girl at a full 3 months (meaning right into the 4th) and the boy at a full 4.

She did CIO, which did not take long. Who knows...they may have been hungry, but I also believe you can train your body quickly to adjust. It's like adults...if you're used to having a midnight snack, soon you feel like you really need that midnight snack. But you don't really NEED it.

JMHO, but I've said on this thread many many times, all kids will turn out fine and if the mother is happy with what she is doing and the kid is healthy, that is the most important thing.

I realize now my post sounded accusatory, which was not my intention at all. It was more my wondering if this was recommended for EBF babies at four months and if so, how does a ped. recommend the parents handle it? I haven't seen Henry's ped. since two months, so I haven't heard anything about this.

You're absolutely right, though- whatever works. I'm going to keep feeding my little milk monster as long as he asks for it (well, until two years, hopefully!). I'm afraid of what would happen if I didn't!

 

[fieryred33143]

Ebree

My pedi is against the concept of STTN and doesn''t like CIO methods. However, he did say that at her 4 month appointment we would talk about possible CIO methods if she isn''t STTN and it is something that I want to explore.

I have seen that Sophia can probably do without the night time feeding. Like formula moms, I pretty much know exactly how much she is getting since she is bottle-fed for the majority of the day. She gets 4 oz, 4 times a day so that''s 16oz. She nurses in the morning and twice before bed. I''ve done a weighed feeding before and I know she gets 3-4oz per session (we''re going back this weekend to confirm again). So from 7am until about 9pm, she has approx 28oz of food. She doesn''t need more than that and when she wakes at night, she never empties the breast. She snacks/nibbles/plays before falling back to sleep. She doesn''t take a paci but these past few nights I have been getting up, rocking/shh''ing and putting her back to sleep. Starting next week, I''m going to stop the rocking and just soothe her back to sleep from her crib (she doesn''t cry ever...she''s just awake).

 

[E B]

Since we're on the subject, here's a short article I found about more frequent nursing at four months written by an RN/LC:

Wakeful 4 Month Olds

Thoughts?

 

[MonkeyPie]

Date: 10/21/2009 4:00:30 PM
Author: EBree
Since we''re on the subject, here''s a short article I found about 4 month ''sleep regressions'' and more frequent nursing written by an RN/LC:

Wakeful 4 Month Olds

Thoughts?

That is a VERY good point.
I think if it is possible to actually track how much your baby is eating, then you can tell if he/she is hungry or not. But how do you tell how much the baby is getting when BFing?

 

[fieryred33143]

Ebree-Are you a member of the bump? They talk about the 4 month wakeful all.the.time on there. Seriously, as soon as a baby hits 3m4w, they post about the 4 month wakeful.

MP-Lactation consultants have gram scales in their offices. You can do a weighed feeding. They weigh baby before the feed, you nurse, and they weigh after. Some have given bottles to figure it out but babies always eat more from a bottle than they do from the breast (bc they get the food too quickly) so it isn''t as accurate a measure as getting a weighed feeding.

 

[E B]

Date: 10/21/2009 4:23:20 PM
Author: fiery
Ebree-Are you a member of the bump? They talk about the 4 month wakeful all.the.time on there. Seriously, as soon as a baby hits 3m4w, they post about the 4 month wakeful.

I was a member of the bump, but lost interest after I had the baby (some of those women are vicious!). I hear about it all the time though in my other parenting communities. The other night, Henry was up every two hours and my husband and I thought, "oh, god, is this the beginning?" Luckily, he's slept well the last two nights, but who knows what's to come!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/21/2009 4:00:30 PM
Author: EBree
Since we''re on the subject, here''s a short article I found about more frequent nursing at four months written by an RN/LC:

Wakeful 4 Month Olds

Thoughts?

I think the article is obviously biased.

Look, I couldn''t breastfeed, so I will leave the two cents there to the other PS breastfeeding moms. My kid also had some wake ups at around 4 months (if I remember correctly) that didn''t last long. Do what feels comfortable and right to you. Your baby will not die if you CIO and don''t feed him. He also won''t be spoiled for life if you do feed him and let him figure it out all on his own.

This goes back to the "expert" thread...everyone''s an expert. When you have a kid, you''ll figure out what your kid needs. Mine slept through the night 12 hours straight when she was 3 months, 4 days (I remember, it was 4th of July...a very very happy day indeed). Once I realized she COULD do it, I decided that''s the road we would take. Well, while she woke up a bit here and there, she never cried and freaked out for food. Had she done that, I would have made the decision at that point on whether I would give her a bottle or not. I''d just pat her a bit and she''d settle down. So it worked for us. Do I feel that a firm routine helped to get us there? Yup. Do I also believe I was very lucky? Oh heck yes.

 

[E B]

Oh, it's definitely biased, but it does bring up some good points. The last time Henry nursed, he must have unlatched a thousand times- to "talk" to me, to look at our dogs, or the door frame near his head. At night, the room is very dark, and as I said before, night nursing all business- he's half asleep as he gulps, actually.

I also brought this subject up in my breastfeeding community, and someone reminded me that a mother's prolactin levels are highest at night, and when baby night-nurses, s/he's helping boost mom's supply. Something else to consider (as if there wasn't enough already!

).

 

[Mara]

i see a lot of mom's referencing kellymom.com with articles. speaking of experts, what is this community made up of? i am not familiar. is it actual medical or parenting 'licensed' experts or more like a general consumer forum like PS.

 

[waxing lyrical]

Interesting read, curly.

I''m not really into anything ''old school,'' and by old school I''m referring to Western culture''s ways of doing things. I never paid much attention to anything mainstream. I know certain practices were heavily practiced and suggested during my grandmother''s days. She was pretty smothering when my mother had me. My mom had practically zero support when it came to breastfeeding and quit after a week. Lack of proper information and support made it pretty much impossible. Since her mother did not breastfeed and education was nothing like it is today she relied on much of the old school practices/advice.

I remember her saying she was determined to make it work with my sister and it did. She exclusively breastfed my sister for 12 months and she co-slept. She was AP before AP became a parenting philosophy and that is largely what influenced my parenting philosophy/style. Never did CIO and wasn''t in a rush to introduce solids. I know she butted heads with my grandmother here and there because if my grandma had it her way table food would be introduced at 3-4 months. Cereal in bottle at 2 weeks.

There was no question whether or not I would exclusively breastfeed, co-sleep, wear my baby and not CIO. I followed my instincts. Any other way is just alien to me.

As for giving babies water, never crossed my mind. Breastmilk was what they got. No need for water.

 

[E B]

Date: 10/21/2009 5:58:26 PM
Author: Mara
i see a lot of mom''s referencing kellymom.com with articles. speaking of experts, what is this community made up of? i am not familiar. is it actual medical or parenting ''licensed'' experts or more like a general consumer forum like PS.

It looks like many of the articles are written or compiled by the website''s creator, Kelly Bonyata: Kelly''s Bio

She links to various studies and other sources as well.

 

[waxing lyrical]

Date: 10/21/2009 5:48:07 PM
Author: EBree
Oh, it''s definitely biased, but it does bring up some good points. The last time Henry nursed, he must have unlatched a thousand times- to ''talk'' to me, to look at our dogs, or the door frame near his head. At night, the room is very dark, and as I said before, night nursing all business- he''s half asleep as he gulps, actually.


I also brought this subject up in my breastfeeding community, and someone reminded me that a mother''s prolactin levels are highest at night, and when baby night-nurses, s/he''s helping boost mom''s supply. Something else to consider (as if there wasn''t enough already!

).

On the subjecting of night-nursing, skimping on it can actually lead to fertility resuming earlier in some women. I hear ALL the time about breastfeeding as birth control doesn''t work. LAM is effective, but only if the baby is younger than 6 months, nurses exclusively every 3-4 hours during the day and 5-6 at night, and mom''s menses hasn''t returned. Since the hormones that sustain breastmilk production are highest at night it would make sense not to skimp on night-nursing.

I never got into the whole STTN deal. We co-sleep and all I have to do is pop my boob out and latch the baby. I go back to sleep. And if I recall, STTN for infants is considered 5-6 hours, not 10-12 by our standards. Many babies do already STTN by 4-5 months if we''re going by 5-6 hours and not a 10 or so hour stretch. I just don''t expect a breastfed baby to sleep several hours. It''s really no sweat off my back to offer the breast if babe is hungry.

I know the situation can be more complicated if babe has GER/reflux, which mine had. They nursed very frequently in order to make up for what was lost/vomited.

 

[qtiekiki]

Kellymom.com is a good resource for breastfeeding, but it is totally biased toward breastfeeding.

How do you know if your baby is actually hungry vs. nursing for comfort? Well the easiest way to find out would be not to offer the breast as soon as the baby wakes/cries, and try other comforting methods, like holding/cuddling/rocking, offering a paci, etc. If none of the comforting methods works, then the baby is probably hungry.

Meena was EBF, and started STTN (6 hrs) at 3 weeks. By 4 months, she was doing 9 hrs. I didn’t stop the night feedings, she did. Her weight was 50%tile at birth, went up to 90%tile at 1 month and stayed 90%tile until 9 months. So I definitely believe that a BF baby can be capable of STTN and not needing night feedings at 4 months.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 10/21/2009 6:22:02 PM
Author: waxing lyrical

Date: 10/21/2009 5:48:07 PM
Author: EBree
Oh, it''s definitely biased, but it does bring up some good points. The last time Henry nursed, he must have unlatched a thousand times- to ''talk'' to me, to look at our dogs, or the door frame near his head. At night, the room is very dark, and as I said before, night nursing all business- he''s half asleep as he gulps, actually.


I also brought this subject up in my breastfeeding community, and someone reminded me that a mother''s prolactin levels are highest at night, and when baby night-nurses, s/he''s helping boost mom''s supply. Something else to consider (as if there wasn''t enough already!

).

On the subjecting of night-nursing, skimping on it can actually lead to fertility resuming earlier in some women. I hear ALL the time about breastfeeding as birth control doesn''t work. LAM is effective, but only if the baby is younger than 6 months, nurses exclusively every 3-4 hours during the day and 5-6 at night, and mom''s menses hasn''t returned. Since the hormones that sustain breastmilk production are highest at night it would make sense not to skimp on night-nursing.

I never got into the whole STTN deal. We co-sleep and all I have to do is pop my boob out and latch the baby. I go back to sleep. And if I recall, STTN for infants is considered 5-6 hours, not 10-12 by our standards. Many babies do already STTN by 4-5 months if we''re going by 5-6 hours and not a 10 or so hour stretch. I just don''t expect a breastfed baby to sleep several hours. It''s really no sweat off my back to offer the breast if babe is hungry.

I know the situation can be more complicated if babe has GER/reflux, which mine had. They nursed very frequently in order to make up for what was lost/vomited.

Yup, this is correct. Quite a few PS babies hit that kind of stretch early on...by 2 months or so.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

I actually slept in the same bed as my parents until I was about 9, as did many of my asian friends whose parents were newly immigrated to the USA. I never thought it was weird until I got older and found out that''s not how you do it here, haha. I turned out hunky dory and well adjusted though.

 

[ChinaCat]

Hey Ebree and others about the "4 month wakeful" thing- did your babies start getting distracted at around 4 months or were they always distracted? Just curious. O doesn''t pay any attention to anything while he BF''s, but not sure that he is old enough to focus on dogs and such. He is fascinated by me, by brightly patterned things, etc, but the dogs, tv, whatever he completely ignores. I am assuming it''s cause he''s young? But then again, he doesn''t mind if I watch tv or read as discussed on the newborn thread. He''s totally focused and almost ignores me when he''s eating.

Also- he has recently started sleeping between 6 and 9 hours at night. He''s 9, almost 10 weeks. I haven''t worried about him getting enough food because I figured he will wake up when he''s hungry (which he does) and my ped said at this stage I can let him sleep as long as he wants at night. And I definitely noticed that he eats way more frequently during the day, which I assume is the trade off. But b/c I only BF, I have no idea how much he''s really eating.

Anyways, I just mention this to say that I agree with TGal and as mothers we should just trust our instincts and that there is not just one way. For example, I personally don''t choose to co-sleep and demand feed and I don''t think it is the best thing for me or my son. BUT I don''t think that if another chooses to do so, that it''s "wrong" or that their child will be unhappy or spoiled or whatever. I think whatever works for each person. I have a close friend who demand feeds and who never lets her daughter cry EVER and her daughter is lovely and it obviously works for her. I do much better on more of a schedule and it seems like my son does too. I tried not having a schedule for a week and it was a disaster. When I keep him on a (flexible) schedule, he is much happier and sleeps/naps/eats better.

But even reading this thread gave me pause and made me question- oh god, should I be waking my son up? And the answer is no, as long as he seems happy and is gaining weight, if he wants to sleep 9 hours, then I am not going to mess with it. And I am much happier when I get sleep, so I am much more patient with him during the day. But it just goes to show that we questions everything as mothers. Guess it''s part of the territory!