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70 percent of American men ages 20-34...
- Thread starter Laila619
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ennui
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sonnyjane
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If that's true, that's not really all that surprising.
At 20 I was still in college. I graduated at 23. Several of my friends went on to get masters, that's another 2 years, and a few to get PhD, that's another 2 to 4 years.
Most of my friends got married young but my sister's friends haven't. They are 29-33 now and just starting to get engaged and married. Is that really so bad? We preach in the LIW section that 18, 20, 22, even 25 is young. It doesn't mean these men are out there are hooking up. They may have steady girlfriends or live in partners and neither party is just ready to sign the paperwork yet.
I think times are changing too. My parents married and then waited nearly a decade to have me so that they had time together before children. They didn't feel comfortable living together before marriage. It was the 1970's, you know. I'm watching friends who are together for that decade on the front end, before marriage, and then the second that they are married, bam, kids right around the 1st wedding anniversary. There's not that same pressure to not live together before marriage and more people are able to more effectively date and get to know each over several years and in many different situations without fear of being judged.
At 20 I was still in college. I graduated at 23. Several of my friends went on to get masters, that's another 2 years, and a few to get PhD, that's another 2 to 4 years.
Most of my friends got married young but my sister's friends haven't. They are 29-33 now and just starting to get engaged and married. Is that really so bad? We preach in the LIW section that 18, 20, 22, even 25 is young. It doesn't mean these men are out there are hooking up. They may have steady girlfriends or live in partners and neither party is just ready to sign the paperwork yet.
I think times are changing too. My parents married and then waited nearly a decade to have me so that they had time together before children. They didn't feel comfortable living together before marriage. It was the 1970's, you know. I'm watching friends who are together for that decade on the front end, before marriage, and then the second that they are married, bam, kids right around the 1st wedding anniversary. There's not that same pressure to not live together before marriage and more people are able to more effectively date and get to know each over several years and in many different situations without fear of being judged.
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Interesting topic Laila. There are many reasons for this IMO and one has to do with the fact that women are pursuing further and higher education and are as independent (or more so) as their male counterparts. Financially independent from them so women don't "need" to get married anymore as they can support themselves and it is much more acceptable now to remain single till one is older than it was generations ago where you were much more likely to be judged unfavorably for remaining single.
Also a factor is the economy and the fact that people are delaying marriage till they are more financially stable.
It's not just in America either. Britain has its lowest marriage rates since 1895 so Americans are not alone with this issue.
I think as the economy picks up and as more same sex marriages occur the overall percentage of marriages will increase again but it will take a long time to realize this statistic.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2015/05/23/millennials-showing-less-interest-getting-married/aX8TpXzjaz7PgD1o1oiYYL/story.html
Of course this statistic is further divided into educational/socioeconomic groups and what is more troubling IMO is the statistic that "57 percent of children born to women aged 26 to 31 are out of wedlock". I think this is mainly troubling (not for any moral reason but rather) because research shows that children do best in 2 parent families. Children born to 2 parent families have better emotional and academic outcomes than those born to single parents for whatever the reason.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/06/for_millennials_out_of_wedlock_childbirth_is_the_norm_now_what.html
How these statistics are divided up is interesting as well though not surprising.
"America is really two separate countries divided by education. Four-year college graduates waited until later in their 20s to have children, and were typically married by the time they did; less than one-third gave birth out of wedlock. Women without a bachelor’s degree had children earlier, and were typically unmarried—74 percent gave birth at least once without a husband".
http://harvardmagazine.com/2012/07/when-having-babies-beats-marriage
Of course just because a married couple have children while they are married of course does not guarantee they will stay married or be in a stable happy relationship but still it is more likely than if a couple have children out of wedlock.
I think this is a very interesting article regarding how cohabitation is not the same thing as marriage when it comes to raising children. I am curious to hear others thoughts on this.
http://family-studies.org/for-kids-parental-cohabitation-and-marriage-are-not-interchangeable/
Also a factor is the economy and the fact that people are delaying marriage till they are more financially stable.
It's not just in America either. Britain has its lowest marriage rates since 1895 so Americans are not alone with this issue.
I think as the economy picks up and as more same sex marriages occur the overall percentage of marriages will increase again but it will take a long time to realize this statistic.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2015/05/23/millennials-showing-less-interest-getting-married/aX8TpXzjaz7PgD1o1oiYYL/story.html
Of course this statistic is further divided into educational/socioeconomic groups and what is more troubling IMO is the statistic that "57 percent of children born to women aged 26 to 31 are out of wedlock". I think this is mainly troubling (not for any moral reason but rather) because research shows that children do best in 2 parent families. Children born to 2 parent families have better emotional and academic outcomes than those born to single parents for whatever the reason.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/06/for_millennials_out_of_wedlock_childbirth_is_the_norm_now_what.html
How these statistics are divided up is interesting as well though not surprising.
"America is really two separate countries divided by education. Four-year college graduates waited until later in their 20s to have children, and were typically married by the time they did; less than one-third gave birth out of wedlock. Women without a bachelor’s degree had children earlier, and were typically unmarried—74 percent gave birth at least once without a husband".
http://harvardmagazine.com/2012/07/when-having-babies-beats-marriage
Of course just because a married couple have children while they are married of course does not guarantee they will stay married or be in a stable happy relationship but still it is more likely than if a couple have children out of wedlock.
I think this is a very interesting article regarding how cohabitation is not the same thing as marriage when it comes to raising children. I am curious to hear others thoughts on this.
http://family-studies.org/for-kids-parental-cohabitation-and-marriage-are-not-interchangeable/
Lower socioeconomic people don't marry. I live in small town Rust Belt America. Annual gross income for women here is about $20,000. Annual gross for men is about $25,000 on average. It takes around $30,000 for a childfree single person to live independently and have a modest standard of living. $10/hr wages just don't cut it. Local employers won't pay a college grad more than $15/hr. Most jobs, except ed and med, are low-pay part-time retail or food service with no benefits. People don't marry and have kids, because the government benefits package offered to unwed low income is so much better than what they can buy with the poor wages from the available jobs.
And that same situation exists all over postindustrial America, especially in rural areas and dead former-industrial regions. Poor people marry the government.
And that same situation exists all over postindustrial America, especially in rural areas and dead former-industrial regions. Poor people marry the government.
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sonnyjane|1441341241|3923450 said:
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-hollingsworth/bachelor-nation-70-men-aged-20-34-are-not-married
Couldn't link it earlier
Imdanny
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ennui|1441331661|3923405 said:
Low wages, poor benefits, high cost of housing, not nearly enough jobs for high school and college graduates.
My grandparents were the WWII generation. My parents were nbayboomers. I'm generation x. Now there are the mellinials.
Wages have stayed flat over 30 years while productivity rose 75%.
Also add to your list banking deregulation, health insurance rising 10% year after year. Energy prices have tripled.
Kids in the future will be wage slaves, benefits that are a joke, no job security (none already).
Manufacturing has been moved to China.
Etc., Etc. Etc.
I think it's easy for middle class people who "have" today to scoff at all these changes. Many think they are above it all. Yet I know of a 55 year old, married, own their own house, children in college, and the wife just found out she had to go back to work, at Costco making what is probably $12- $15.
It's become a lot worse since the 2007/ 2008 economic disaster.
I keep hearing, "There's no money." Yesterday I read about a boxer who just made $300,000,000.for one fight. This is not a joke.
So, yes, it's rough out there for young people who are starting with unheard of student loan debt and who will never have it the way my grandparents and parents did during their working lives.
I'm sorry about the rant but this bothers me. We've been divided on social issues and have missed economic issues to the detriment of many people today and many yet to be born.
I don't blame kids or parents if kids have to live at home. They are lucky they have a safe place to live.
S
smitcompton
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Hi,
I wonder if attitudes have changed toward, for example, loans for education. If a family didn't have the money to send a child away to school, they went to a city or state college. Many went at nite to get a degree. My own brother left school at 16 to go into the navy. At 20, he had cleared his head and went back to high school, kept a part time job, and finished his degree without owing a dime to anyone. He did have the G I bill which gave him additional income. Parents were not expected to foot the bill if they didn't have it. You live at home, no car. It seems to me to be insanity to rack up these loans. Oh, I also went to the City University of New York, had a child, worked part time and was loan free when I graduated.
I have a niece who bemoans the fact that men don't want to commit anymore. She lived In England. I have met and socialized with three of her serious boyfriends. In each and every case i have heard her say that she doesn't care if she gets married. So, is this the message that guys hear?. She says it in front of them. But, to me she says she does want to get married. Perhaps Missy is right in writing that women are more independent now, but you would think that women would know that if they want kids, a two parent family unit is more successful.
Diamond demand is decreasing. If fewer people are getting married then we can see why this may be true. I guess I feel strongly that marriage is best when you have kids. Of course divorce may be in the future, but marriage really is a strong bond.
Annette
I wonder if attitudes have changed toward, for example, loans for education. If a family didn't have the money to send a child away to school, they went to a city or state college. Many went at nite to get a degree. My own brother left school at 16 to go into the navy. At 20, he had cleared his head and went back to high school, kept a part time job, and finished his degree without owing a dime to anyone. He did have the G I bill which gave him additional income. Parents were not expected to foot the bill if they didn't have it. You live at home, no car. It seems to me to be insanity to rack up these loans. Oh, I also went to the City University of New York, had a child, worked part time and was loan free when I graduated.
I have a niece who bemoans the fact that men don't want to commit anymore. She lived In England. I have met and socialized with three of her serious boyfriends. In each and every case i have heard her say that she doesn't care if she gets married. So, is this the message that guys hear?. She says it in front of them. But, to me she says she does want to get married. Perhaps Missy is right in writing that women are more independent now, but you would think that women would know that if they want kids, a two parent family unit is more successful.
Diamond demand is decreasing. If fewer people are getting married then we can see why this may be true. I guess I feel strongly that marriage is best when you have kids. Of course divorce may be in the future, but marriage really is a strong bond.
Annette
iLander
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We didn't have any money when we got married (30+ years ago) and that didn't stop us. We fell head-over-heels and wanted to start the rest of our lives together right away. We didn't even consider kids, actually.
If you ever read the advice book (not the movie) "He's just not that into you", the author says that nothing keeps a man from proposing. Nothing. Not lack of money, career concerns, etc. The whole point of proposing and marrying is to get you "off the market" as soon as possible. Plenty of poor people get married, and not everyone is hoping to have children right away, so the money issues don't apply.
This is a fun read, even if you're married;
http://www.amazon.com/Hes-Just-That-Into-Understanding/dp/141690977X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1441390618&sr=8-2&keywords=he%27s+just+not+that+into+you
Today both men and women are pretty comfy with the status quo: living with SO, free food, free sex, someone to do laundry with, what's not to like? Why change it?
People look at their parents and they're dismayed; mom and dad divorced, big pain for everybody, all around. Who wants to go there?
I wonder if both DH and I having married parents helped? I wonder if our parents had been divorced, would we have been so eager? DS wanted to get married right away, I guess because he had happily married parents as role models.
So, I don't think it's the economy so much, I think it's lack of positive married role models and living together being pretty darn comfy.
If you ever read the advice book (not the movie) "He's just not that into you", the author says that nothing keeps a man from proposing. Nothing. Not lack of money, career concerns, etc. The whole point of proposing and marrying is to get you "off the market" as soon as possible. Plenty of poor people get married, and not everyone is hoping to have children right away, so the money issues don't apply.
This is a fun read, even if you're married;
http://www.amazon.com/Hes-Just-That-Into-Understanding/dp/141690977X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1441390618&sr=8-2&keywords=he%27s+just+not+that+into+you
Today both men and women are pretty comfy with the status quo: living with SO, free food, free sex, someone to do laundry with, what's not to like? Why change it?
People look at their parents and they're dismayed; mom and dad divorced, big pain for everybody, all around. Who wants to go there?
I wonder if both DH and I having married parents helped? I wonder if our parents had been divorced, would we have been so eager? DS wanted to get married right away, I guess because he had happily married parents as role models.
So, I don't think it's the economy so much, I think it's lack of positive married role models and living together being pretty darn comfy.
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I agree with much of what you said, iLander. Men already have easy access to sex, companionship, someone to help pay the bills, etc. There's no real motivation for them to get married these days IMO. Even if they want kids, it's perfectly acceptable to have them out of wedlock. No one bats any eye anymore.
zoebartlett
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Niel|1441329695|3923390 said:
I agree that it may be taking longer for people to establish themselves and to feel more secure financially and career-wise before getting married and starting a family.
My friends are all over the place with this. Some of them chose to get married just a couple years after graduating college (late '90s), while others waited several years. I didn't meet my husband until a week before I turned 30. He was 31. We dated for 5 years before getting married. I think we were late bloomers in terms of getting started in our careers, so I was just starting out (finishing grad school) and my husband was working full time and finishing his bachelors degree. Although I had no idea what I wanted after college and I couldn't imagine getting married in my early 20s, it might have unfolded differently if we had met early on.
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