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Gladiator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
17
First off, I amazed at the wealth of knowledge on this forum. I discovered it after making a purchase on line (McGiverns-extremely nice and helpful-went through several stones I selected and picked what they thought looked the best), but thought I would run my diamond past the "experts" here. I most impressed with the logic and direction of the HCA system and how AGS 000 might not always mean "ideal". Now to the diamond......

AGS certified: Round brilliant-date of cert- April 2002
Cut Grade- AGS Ideal 0
Polish,symmetry,proportions- all Ideal
Color Grade- AGS Ideal H
Clarity Grade- AGS Ideal SI2
Carat Weight- 1.578
Measurements: 7.46-7.53x 4.64mm
Table- 55%
Depth- 61.9%
Crown- 16.0%
Pavillion- 43%
Crown angle- 35.4
Pavillion angle- 40.9
Culet- Pointed
Girdle- faceted 0.7%-1.7%
Fluorescence- Inert
Price: $8400
Gemologist states it is a beautiful stone (of course), and although an SI2, it is "eye clean" with the main "feather" on the side of the crown. Using the HCA, I come up with a score of "2.4" or "very good". Is this a fair price for this stone? Is an HCA score of 2.4 acceptable? How would a 2.4 fare against say a 1.3? Are we talking subtle or substantial differences? I know I need to see the stone to make the final judgement, but I love getting knowledge and learning from others to make a more informed decision.
Thanks in advance for all of your help.:)) Comments/suggestions welcome!
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
Gladiator.....

NO one can tell much about this stone, unless they see it.

If you really want an expert opinion, send the stone to a qualified appraiser. There's a bunch listed on this site, and get it checked properly.

Flying blind with diamond grading i.e. issuing opinions without really seeing and knowing what's "cooking" with the diamond isn't professional for an expert to do.

So appraise the appraiser,select someone who believe can do the job right for you, and get the facts about your purchase.

Rockdoc
 

Gladiator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
17
Thanks RockDoc, but I've read tons of info on this forum where people have not actually seen a diamond, but offered very good advice or comments. I thought I could get some input from experts who could look at the specs on the diamond and offer some insight. I'm sure if I listed a diamond with a depth of %68 and a crown angle of 40, you could tell me it sucks without seeing it.
 

Gladiator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
17
P.S.- Just went to your sight RockDoc- it is extremely informative and I understand now your points about commenting on a diamond and the HCA. I guess I was being a little "extreme" in the title of my post. I was looking more for general comments than somone actually telling me to send it back based upon info in a thread. Sorry for the confusion.

Stupid me- I could have had McGiverns send you the stone as I see they are listed as a participating dealer on your site. I wish I find this site a little earlier....
 

ready

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 23, 2002
Messages
77
When I ran your diamond through HCA, I came up with a .4 result! I used the angles, not the %.
 

golfer

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 7, 2002
Messages
128
You know Rockdoc, your site talks all about "independent" appraisals and how you should never trust the appraisal paid for by the seller. But it seems to me that what you do is even less independent. Your business relies heavily on agreements with the dealers to send you the stones without the customer paying --but if you are more likely to find a problem with the stone, of course the dealers won't use you any more. Your continued success depends largely on satisfying your customer -- which are really the dealers (even if the customers pay you).

I agree that the standard appraisal offered by most sellers is also not independent, but at least those appraisers talk to dealer first, which almost makes them more independent (but not reporting to the ultimate consumer). That is, they can freely tell the seller what they think, and the seller might be glad to know it before the ultimate consumer ever sees the stone -- then the seller can either resubmit to another appraiser or notify the consumer.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,919
This stone is an example of a diamond that is currently within the AGS 0 guidelines.

In years to come this standard will be changed and diamonds like it (steep crown) will be downgraded. It attracts an AGS 0 premium now and will not later.

Besides it will not return as much light and has a smaller spread (no matter what anyone tells you).
I would send it back, and by all means have mcG's ship a stone to Bill, Dave or another appraiser to check for you.
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
----------------
I understand now your points about commenting on a diamond and the HCA.
----------------Gladiator,
post regarding Rockdoc page on HCA.Most of the statements in Rockdoc page are correct. However, because he mainly considers the flaws, his article creates incorrect idea of reality.

It would be more objective to compare merits and demerits of HCA to AGS grading system on grading of the cut parameters.

As a result of such comparison it would be clear that HCA has much less flaws than AGS grading system and has certain merits, which AGS lacks.

Therefore HCA is more effective for the cut grading based on available parameters.

At the same time, we should remember that parameters often do not describe a real diamond correctly and do not show most of the symmetry deviations, which are important for accurate cut grading and taken into account in AGS grading.

However, if we consider a class of symmetrical diamonds then HCA is much more effective than AGS grading system because it has more merits while flaws remain the same.

Sergey Sivovolenko



[/u][/u]
 

Gladiator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
17
Thanks for all of the input. I did a lot of research and reading last night and I came up with three stones that I think are excellent. Here are the links:

http://www.whiteflash.com/acut/diamond_details.asp?ItemCode=2388

http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_52ct_j_vs1_h&a.htm

http://search.virtcert.com/cgi/u/1012/v.cgi?stock=278967&_s=1012&_p=sdf348gd743&_c=&_fs=1&prestock=

They all look like great stones. My question is the price difference of roughly $1000 between the goodoldgold "J" stone and the certifiediamond "I" stone. With all that sparkle and brilliance would there be a noticeable difference between a "J" and an "I"? All stones score excellent on the HCA and other tests. Please advise on the color situation.

The goodoldgold website is incredible for information about diamonds and extremely thorough in the information provided about their diamonds. I really like the daimond on their site, but just have the slightest reservation about the "J" color.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
I havent looked at your links yet, in a minute, but first thing that pops into my head is..why are you moving from an H color to thoughts of a J? In my opinion, that is a large difference. Some could argue that I is where you start to see slight tinges of yellow to a good eye. The range of G/H/I/J is a very large one, its not like D/E/F where they are all still colorless. When you get into a range that is named 'near colorless', that means that the H is going to be more near colorless than a J which will be closer to the next range which is more yellowy.

Anyway I will look at the links, but ask Jonathan/Rhino at GOG (he frequents the forum) on what his thoughts are on the J. He also may be able to find another stone for you that fits your parameters and price. Give him a ring.

Is carat weight your first priority? What are your priorities in order? Writing this down may help you narrow your choices down. E.g. if CTW is first, then keeping the 1.5 may be important. If cut is first, and ctw second, you may need to go down to a 1.3 or similar to get a great cut and still keep a larger diamond look. You get the picture :)
 

Gladiator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
17
Thanks Mara. The "J" diamond is offered by Jonathan and I gave him a call. What a terrific person to speak with. He assured me it is an outstanding stone and the "J" only exhibits a slight tint when viewed from the side. Face up he said it is outstanding. All other critieria on the stone are top notch and I didn't feel the $1000 difference would be worth it from a "J" to an "I". Maybe a "H" or "G" I would have considered it. Jonathan seems top be very forthright on the quality of his stones and I am trusting his judgement on the "J" color.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Yes I just viewed the urls you gave and he did mention in the product page that it faces up very white, which is great. Also if the diamond has intense sparkle then you will probably not be able to see as much (if any) color. The price looks great as well! I ran a quick Pricescope search for diamonds between 1.4-1.55ctw, F-H color, VVS2-SI1 in the EXCELLENT HCA score category (known crown and pav angles), and the cheapest stone (from whiteflash, 1.4c F, SI1) was $11k. So for under $9k, this diamond looks like a great deal. Plus from what I have heard, dealing with Jonathan is always great.

Best of luck on whatever you decide!

Happy Holidays!
 

jetcaptain

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 3, 2002
Messages
72
This will mostly just echo what Mara has already posted, but here's my thoughts. I looked at the diamond you mentioned from goodoldgold, and it looked really sweet to me. You wondered in your posting if you would notice much difference between an I and a J color with all that sparkling going on. I don't think that most people could tell much difference between an I and a J anyway, but particularly when the J is a really nice one, which this one is. Is the price difference worth $1,000? That's up to you, but stepping up one color grade would not be worth $1,000 to me, especially if you plan to mount it in yellow gold anyway. If your mounting situation demands colorless, then I would move down in size (but by all means stay with a superior cut)to remain within your budget. Just my $0.02.
 

DiamondOptics

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2002
Messages
380
Hi Gladiator,


I concur, an I-J color in a super-ideal-cut will
generally face up whiter due to all the white
light returned to the viewers eye.

Enjoy your search!


Kirk
 

Gladiator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
17
I have to say I have come along way. About 9 years ago I bought my first diamond for my wife. I went to a jeweler who was supposed to be a friend of the family and very reputable. Big mistake! Don't listen to famiy!

I was very ignorant about diamonds back then, except for the normal 4Cs. I was supposed to be buying a 1.09 VS1 G with "American Cuts". It cost around $5000. It had no certificate other than what the jeweler told us about it. First ring, first diamond, all excited I bought it. Well, looking back now, what an awful stone! Depth of 67%, extremely thick girdle with three fractures on it, extremely small table, and unknown crown and pavillion angles. All these years I always cleaned my wife's ring and it never had any life and I couldn't figure it out! Diamonds are supposed to sparkle. It was dull and boring! Well now I know why it doesn'e after being educated on ths pricescope and diamondscope sites and this forum.

Unfortunately there a probably too many people out there with stories like mine or who do not even realize they were taken yet. I feel so much better right now that my wife will be getting a "real" diamond. I think she is going to be floored when she sees the difference. It's going to be somewhat of a surprise for Christmas.

Is the 1.09 diamond even worth anything? I thought about putting it in a pendant, as she always wanted one, but after my diamond education I want to toss it! Well I'm glad I can share my tale of woe and now happiness with everyone. Thanks to sites like this and the dealers who frequent them, there will be many more informed buyers out there challenging the conventional wisdom of the 4Cs and really getting specifics on the stone they are buying.
Thanks again to Jonathan at Goodoldgold for a truly wonderful and informative website. After speaking with him I am very confident I have bought an awesome diamond I can be proud of.:bigsmile:
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
You can probably look into having the original 1.09 diamond recut to better proportions. One of the experts on here could probably guide you on how to do that. You might not even lose alot of the original carat weight, depending on what they can do with the original specs. But even if you end up with something like a .50-.75ct beautifully sparkly diamond for a pendant, it's better than a dull 1ctw pendant! :) Also I would note that if you do have it cut and reset into a pendant (great idea!), don't do a bezel setting as that will hamper the diamond's ability to reflect light, so do a regular prong set or similar where the light can enter and leave the diamond as it could in a ring.

Best of luck! Post a picture of the new ring if you get a chance! :)
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Gladiator, don't toss the 1.09!

It can be recut into one of those gorgeous ideal or near ideal cuts that everybody raves about on these forums. Doesn't cost all that much (relatively speaking), and it would make a great birthday or anniversary gift for your wife.

Usually the weight loss is in the neighborhood of 15-20%, unless the stone is way out-of-whack. If you have the complete proportion specs on it I or one of the other appraisers on the board could give you an estimated weight on a recut.

It would be kind of cool giving your original engagement ring stone a new look wouldn't it? Have it look "killer" after all these years of looking "dead", eh?

Rich, GG
Sarasota Gemological Laboratory
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,919
Rich is correct about the recut option.

But like most people in the trade Rich and RocDoc have been trained to believe that most swindled additional weight is in the pavilion; not so.

What is more, in most cases the only part of a diamond that needs recutting to gaine the best improvements in beauty is the pavillion!

unless your stone is way out of round (eg 6.1 to 6.3mm) it may only need to have the pavilion angle lowered to 39.5 to 40 degrees which will only result in a loss of about 6 points (so you retain the magic +1ct status).

Because you said it has a small table and is dead, I have assumed the crown angle i s too steep. A very shallow pavilion will compensate.

Rich, play with DC2 and see what I mean :)
 

Gladiator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
17
Mara, Rich, Cut Nut- Thanks! That is great news about the recut. My wife is gonna be loving me! Unfortunately I have no other info on the diamond except what I posted. From what I can tell and understand now, most of the weight appears to be from the girdle on down. I can't even look at it now after knowing what a diamond should look like. Ignorance was bliss!

I think everyone would agree it is much better to lose carat size and have a diamond with life, than a 1.09 that is a big dud. How do I go about finding a place that does recuts? Any reputable suggestions? What is a rough estimate for a recut? $500/$1000 or more?

I'll be checking out the diamond on the Ideal Scope I just ordered also. Should be fun.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
But like most people in the trade Rich and RocDoc have been trained to believe that most swindled additional weight is in the pavilion; not so.
-----------

Hey! Watch your language. You've got no idea what I've been trained to believe, you renegade Aussey. :wink2:

Gladiator, if you're LUCKY, the parameters on your stone might only afford you a 6 or 7% weight loss, as Garry suggests.

However, if I were you I'd figure an estimate of 15% and be happy for anything you gain above that. You might need more than the pavilion recut, especially if going for a premium or ideal make.

I'd work through one of the ideal cut guys here on the forum. They've surely got cutters or access to cutters which they know are good craftsmen. The finer a cut you go for, the more it costs. I used to charge $250 per carat when I had my store and offered the service, but that was not for ideal or near-ideal makes, just the best cut which the cutter could get while retaining the most weight. I would expect a "premium cut" or "ideal cut" job to cost more.

Garry, from my experience, most additional weight takes place in the girdle plane, not the pavilion.

Rich, GG
Sarasota Gemological Laboratory
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
14,919
Yeah all the additional weight is sually in the girdle. I carry about 20 pounds of it around with me every daay Rich!

But the weight in the girdle will not hurt the look of the diaamond much.

Most cutters will want to remove that, and bring down the crown and the make the table bigger. Then you loose 15%.

But this is a chance to cut aa firey ideal and retain the 1ct status.

I am guessing the stone is about 50-54%T, >36C thick girdle and P43-44 degrees. Model it and try dropping the pavilion to just below 40 and check out what happens to the ideal-scope im age.
 

Gladiator

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
17
FWIW- I am new to this site and I am fortunate enough to have found it, and although there are probably untold posts and threads about Jonathan and GoodOldGold, I would just like to offer some thoughts about Jonathan. I called him on what was no doubt a busy afternoon on the Friday before Christmas and was expecting to be treated in a hurried and curt fashion. After spending some time on his website, I thought that reading a website is one thing and dealing with a real person often produces surprising results (good website/bad person). My expectations were not that high and boy was I wrong! He spent a considerable amount of time with me, patiently answering all questions, and just making me feel like he really cared about the stone I was selecting. He has an enthusiasm that I greatly respect and in the end makes purchasing a beautiful stone a wonderful experience also. I even e-mailed him with a question on a Saturday night and it was answered in just over 2 hours. Amazing! Please don't take this that I am being the poster child for Jonathan or GOG, but I felt the need to share a positive experience about buying an often intimidating product. I haven't been around here long enough to know if I just caught him on a good day or what, but he lived up to the hype on his website. Now......I wait for FedEx to arrive in the morning and see if the diamond lives up to the hype!:wink2:
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
I expect you will be pretty pleased with your diamond once it arrives. In the last week a few forum members have made purchases from GOG after viewing many diamonds and posting regarding their search, and have noted how pleased they are with the end result. Good luck, and be sure to let us know how things turn out! :)

Happy Holidays!
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Hey Garry, I see what you mean about bringing in the pavilion on Gladiator's stone.

The diamond cutters really need to get a hold of this DiamondCalc program. It's simply amazing.

Rich, GG
Sarasota Gemological Laboratory

Albert who?
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,271
LMAO ... you guys are cracking me up. Yes I know I have my moments! Some things really just push my buttons sometimes and I'll write in the heat of the moment (of course sometimes later to regret it)! :loopy:

Gladiator, I really do appreciate the kind words and your note of my response times in email. In the past the most common complaints were my response times so I've been making a conscious effort to keep on top of that.

I would also like to offer you the opportunity, if you like, of having your 1.09ct recut to the optical beauty you've purchased with us. We may not send out our next recuts for another month or so but when we do, as a client of ours, I'd like to offer you the opportunity of having your stone recut by one of the finest diamond cutting factories in the world.

Email me if you're interested.

Peace,
Rhino
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
From the posts it sounds like

:sun: is what Rhino needs to do more of! as opposed to :read:

:naughty: Happy Holidays!
 
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