60/60 or ideal cut. How do you know what to choose

[psadmin]

New Article
60/60 or ideal cut. How do you know what to choose ?

Dave Atlas

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/71/1/6060-or-ideal-cut--How-do-you-know-what-to-choose.aspxhttp://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/71/1/6060-or-ideal-cut--How-do-you-know-what-to-choose.aspx

Than you Dave.

Andrey

 

[Lorelei]

Bravo Dave, its an excellent and very well written article!

 

[Serg]

Dave,

re:I used Sarin, DiamCalc and Verigem to measure, compute and reveal the physical differences,

PLease publish Sarin 3D models for David 60/60( was in 60/60 with Depth 61%)

If your Sarin can not build 3D models, could please you send this diamond to Rhino for Helium scan? I happy compensate all additional expenses . I am very interesting to receive 3D model for diamonds what are nice but far away from AGS0 and GIA excellent

 

[Judah Gutwein]

Thank you Dave.

 

[oldminer]

Sergey:

I have sent you and Garry the two .srn files.

 

[glitterata]

Dave, thank you for that reasonable and measured article. As always, you are a voice of reason.

However, I did object to this sentence:

"Scientists can be very inventive and statistics can be used to prove or disprove nearly anything."

Perhaps what you meant was that deceptive people can misuse statistics to confuse people and make false statements sound true. But it is not the case that statistics can prove false statements or disprove true ones.

 

[princesss]

Very interesting article. Thank you!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 5/21/2009 3:56:40 PM
Author: glitterata
Dave, thank you for that reasonable and measured article. As always, you are a voice of reason.

However, I did object to this sentence:

''Scientists can be very inventive and statistics can be used to prove or disprove nearly anything.''

Perhaps what you meant was that deceptive people can misuse statistics to confuse people and make false statements sound true. But it is not the case that statistics can prove false statements or disprove true ones.

There''s an old saying.
There''s lies, damn lies, and then statistics.......

I have not read the article yet, but I agree with Dave on the sentence you quoted.

 

[oldminer]

I agree 100% that you cannot actually prove a falsehood to be true, but you can use statistical data and other techniques to seemingly prove or appear to prove a falsehood is true on occasion. Dazzle them with footwork, so to speak. You are very correct.

One can be born into the diamond business and believe what they have been told for thirty or more years to be "factual" when the evidence either is not there at all, or the evidence has always been used in a deceptive manner. There is a lot of re-education going on within the diamond business. My first thirty years of diamonds made the "60/60" the best make of diamond, superior to the Tolkowsky ideal, which was considered for decades to be a rather isolated model only sold by a few guild stores and not a widely commercially viable choice. Many minds think differently today, but the underlying facts have never changed.

I appreciate you bringing clarity to my earlier statements.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I''d like to thank you Dave- for assisting in the thread I wrote about this- and for having an open mind about things.

I will read what you wrote.

A good example of the statistics being abused might be when a person asks:
"I''m looking at a diamond. It''s xx% this or that"

Someone will come on and answer definitively
"It can''t be a good diamond- it''s xxx% "

I honestly believe that in almost every case the person answering is genuinely attempt to assist the OP- however, sometimes relying only on statistics can get you a very wrong result.

 

[Rockdiamond]

I read the article- Dave.
It''s well thought out and written.
In some ways I feel what you''ve written is a very good way of describing exactly what I see.

The more measured way of grading an AGS 0 cut grade is a well proven method.
Something IS lost in the translation though.
You touched upon another issue.
How many sellers are (ab)using the "general knowledge" about Ideal Cut Diamonds to market something that has nothing to do with either a well cut 60/60 OR a "Near Tolk" AGS0
We''ve all heard the old saying: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"

A lot of people have heard about "Ideal Cut" but not many of the details.
I see this manifested almost daily.
A call comes in:
"I''m looking at your diamond on the internet. Is it an ideal cut? The "Joe Shmoe.com" site has only Ideal cuts."

The site in question, more times than not, has nothing whatsoever that would be considered "Ideal" by the good folks here- or any knowledgeable diamond people.
Yet, there''s the label..... "Ideal Cut"
Plus there''s the fact it''s referring to an Emerald Cut.

AS a seller, that''s the time you have to make a choice.

Sales, or integrity?

Easy answer would be "Sure, our Emerald Cut is Super ideal"

Could be my weakness, but I can''t do that.
I have to explain to the shopper that the term "Ideal" is abused ALL over the internet- and furthermore, sometimes upon seeing them, people don''t like a verified "Ideal" cut as well as a really well cut non Ideal cut.

I know that the answer is by no means easy- people rightfully want to quantify things they buy- especially online. But it is an interesting discussion

 

[diagem]

Date: 5/21/2009 11:38:19 AM
Author:PS Admin




New Article

60/60 or ideal cut. How do you know what to choose ?

Dave Atlas

http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/71/1/6060-or-ideal-cut--How-do-you-know-what-to-choose.aspxhttp://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/71/1/6060-or-ideal-cut--How-do-you-know-what-to-choose.aspx

Than you Dave.

Andrey

Nice and wisely written

I wish some would learn from Dave how to express themselves a bit better on such consensus issues...

, more respect for themselves, PS and its participants....

 

[oldminer]

The kind of open dialogue we are seeing here, and in the recent threads related to this topic, are among the most open and honest I have ever seen shared with the public. This is the kind of thing which makes "Pricescope" "Priceless". Thanks for all the comments and sharing.

 

[strmrdr]

If someone wants to buy a round diamond why do I recommend a well documented well cut diamond?

The reason is really simple...
I know over a wide range of lighting it will look great.

In some lighting all diamonds will look good.
But we are not in ideal lighting all the time.

If I knew precisely what lighting someone spent their time in I could design them a diamond specifiacly for those conditions or find a stone with the specs that work better than others under those conditions.

Some people dont care about that, as there are many reasons people buy diamomds.
Some just want BIG and dont care about anything else.
Some want D/IF and don''t care about anything else.

But that does not change the fact that a diamond I am willing to recommend will be a well rounded performer with a good mix of what people enjoy when looking at a diamond.

 

[DiamondFlame]

Thanks for the well balanced article, Dave. I''ve always admired the measured tone you use in your posts.

Adopting a broader range of ''ideal'' parameters would no doubt make for a wider range of attractive options for the consumer. For the discerning buyer, this allow for greater flexibility in exercising their options to optimise their preferred combination of 4Cs. But for others who prefer to rely on numbers to pick their stones, they can still opt for the best IS/ASET images, and the optimal symmetry with maximum light return combinations.

While attempts to turn diamond selection into a science are applaudable, we must not forget that buying a diamond is often an emotional process and as such, judging a diamond''s attractiveness will remain at the best of times, subjective.

 

[whatmeworry]

Dave, great article and now I''ll put you on the hot seat. Suppose I were a consumer and had sent you both those stones for a comparison and an opinion. You''ve seen both stones, run all the tech tests (HCA, ASSET, IS, Imagem) and did a visual observation. You presumably know the retail internet prices of both. Or you should be able to calculate that. Based on all that. What would your recommendation be if I asked you what the best buy was? Okay that''s a loaded question, like asking which is better D color or G color. But it''s fair to have a consumer ask the appraiser "which should I buy" As this particular example is a heated one, feel free to give a non-answer.

And as a second question, what does this tell you about the strengths and limitations of the tools when they meet the real world?
I think there was a video where Peter Yantzer was saying that one thing that all the cut tools couldn''t factor in was individual preference. I''ll paraphrase him. The scientists might all say the sky is green(beautiful/ugly) but you could look out your window and say those scientists are nuts the sky is blue (ugly/beautiful). Kudos to him for that acknowledgement.

 

[Serg]

Date: 5/22/2009 12:56:23 AM
Author: whatmeworry
Dave, great article and now I''ll put you on the hot seat. Suppose I were a consumer and had sent you both those stones for a comparison and an opinion. You''ve seen both stones, run all the tech tests (HCA, ASSET, IS, Imagem) and did a visual observation. You presumably know the retail internet prices of both. Or you should be able to calculate that. Based on all that. What would your recommendation be if I asked you what the best buy was? Okay that''s a loaded question, like asking which is better D color or G color. But it''s fair to have a consumer ask the appraiser ''which should I buy'' As this particular example is a heated one, feel free to give a non-answer.

And as a second question, what does this tell you about the strengths and limitations of the tools when they meet the real world?

I think there was a video where Peter Yantzer was saying that one thing that all the cut tools couldn''t factor in was individual preference. I''ll paraphrase him. The scientists might all say the sky is green(beautiful/ugly) but you could look out your window and say those scientists are nuts the sky is blue (ugly/beautiful). Kudos to him for that acknowledgement.

You can see even purple sky.Are scientists fools if somebody weiring pink glasses?
60/60 could be nice, but for comparison you need well done experiment. "Experts" could receive ANY results now, even they have not any agenda. Diamond industry have not any valid tool to compare different cuts yet. All tools are rejection tools only, to see difference from "Standard".
Gemological light is not tool for cut comparison at all.

 

[whatmeworry]

No. Scientists would be fools if they didn't acknowledge there were people wearing pink glasses or the possibility that people may put on pink glasses at different times.

 

[Serg]

Date: 5/22/2009 2:42:53 AM
Author: whatmeworry
No. Scientists would be fools if they didn''t acknowledge there were people wearing pink glasses or the possibility that people may put on pink glasses at different times.

what should do scientists, if people are wearing pink glasses only during shopping and do not like hear advice to wear some glasses during shopping what people wear after shopping?

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 5/22/2009 2:53:11 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 5/22/2009 2:42:53 AM

Author: whatmeworry

No. Scientists would be fools if they didn't acknowledge there were people wearing pink glasses or the possibility that people may put on pink glasses at different times.

what should do scientists, if people are wearing pink glasses only during shopping and do not like hear advice to wear some glasses during shopping what people wear after shopping?

Sorry Serg, I'm getting lost in the analogy. Can you rephrase in terms of diamonds, consumers, and evaluation tools.

Certainly scientist should find the margin of error in grade assignment with consumer testing AND reveal what that means to the consumer. example, what is the difference between a Top grade and Second Tiergrade. Does that mean 51% will prefer the Top over the Second Tier Grade. Or does that mean 99% will prefer the Top Grade? Which case is AGS0 versus AGS2? GIA Ex vs GIA VG? I don't know. How can a consumer make an intelligent choice between AGS0 and AGS2 without seeing for themselves?

 

[Serg]

Date: 5/22/2009 3:27:45 AM
Author: whatmeworry

Date: 5/22/2009 2:53:11 AM

Author: Serg

Date: 5/22/2009 2:42:53 AM


Author: whatmeworry


No. Scientists would be fools if they didn''t acknowledge there were people wearing pink glasses or the possibility that people may put on pink glasses at different times.

what should do scientists, if people are wearing pink glasses only during shopping and do not like hear advice to wear some glasses during shopping what people wear after shopping?

Sorry Serg, I''m getting lost in the analogy. Can you rephrase in terms of diamonds, consumers, and evaluation tools.

Pink glasses is light conditions in jewelery shops. GIA DD is Pink glasses too.
shopping is diamond shopping

 

[Serg]

ASET, IS is Night Vision systems

 

[whatmeworry]

Okay. Got it. Happy hour time, I''ll think about it and get back to you.
See my remarks of margin of error. What is margin of error of ASSET, IS, etc? Can bad ASSET/IS = good diamond?

 

[Serg]

Date: 5/22/2009 3:50:55 AM
Author: whatmeworry
Okay. Got it. Happy hour time, I''ll think about it and get back to you.

See my remarks of margin of error. What is margin of error of ASSET, IS, etc? Can bad ASSET/IS = good diamond?

Good ASET/IS could be for bad diamonds.
for diamonds with Great Fire ASET/IS could be bad.

re:Or does that mean 99% will prefer the Top Grade? Which case is AGS0 versus AGS2? GIA Ex vs GIA VG? I don''t know. How can a consumer make an intelligent choice between AGS0 and AGS2 without seeing for themselves?

How do you select wine? Did you try to buy wine with price 100$-1000$ per bottle? You can not open bottle and test it before you bought it.

 

[whatmeworry]

Serg,
How do I select a wine? Wine is a somewhat different, because you cannot return it once you open it. With diamonds you can always return it if you change your mind and it''s not what you expected (assume it''s a good vendor). Depends on mood and previous experience with wine. If I drink a wine that I like, I will remember that wine and try to buy it when faced when them same situation. Sometimes champagne, sometimes pinot noir, sometimes cabernet. I try all types of wines, some I like, some I don''t like. That doesn''t mean if I don''t like it it''s bad. I would recommend those that I like to others and tell them my experience with those wines that I didn''t like. I love Opus One but cannot afford it daily. I have a favorite brand of pinot noir (can''t think of it right now...starts with an A), it''s moderately priced ($25) and I try to buy it if it''s in stock. So suppose I have a menu with no vineyards that I''m familiar with, then it depends on my mood and I will choose based on grape varietal and previous experience (pinot noir, cabernet, etc.) I think you can''t go wrong with champagne (all around player).

How do I select a movie I have never seen before? Based on reviews. Two types. One is popular voting of best movies (website is Rotten Tomatoes). Other is expert recommendation. But this depends on the expert. If the expert is Roger Ebert. I give that recommendation a different weight that if the recommendation is from my 7 year old daughter. The point is they are both experts but have different tastes. After I have seen the movie, sometimes I agree/disagree with Roger Ebert, sometimes I agree/disagree with my daughter. The best one that seems to work for me is Rotten Tomatoes, (users, mostly film fanatics, vote on whether they like or dislike a movie.)

 

[Serg]

Date: 5/22/2009 7:42:17 AM
Author: whatmeworry
Serg,

How do I select a wine? Wine is a somewhat different, because you cannot return it once you open it. With diamonds you can always return it if you change your mind and it''s not what you expected (assume it''s a good vendor). Depends on mood and previous experience with wine. If I drink a wine that I like, I will remember that wine and try to buy it when faced when them same situation. Sometimes champagne, sometimes pinot noir, sometimes cabernet. I try all types of wines, some I like, some I don''t like. That doesn''t mean if I don''t like it it''s bad. I would recommend those that I like to others and tell them my experience with those wines that I didn''t like. I love Opus One but cannot afford it daily. I have a favorite brand of pinot noir (can''t think of it right now...starts with an A), it''s moderately priced ($25) and I try to buy it if it''s in stock. So suppose I have a menu with no vineyards that I''m familiar with, then it depends on my mood and I will choose based on grape varietal and previous experience (pinot noir, cabernet, etc.) I think you can''t go wrong with champagne (all around player).


How do I select a movie I have never seen before? Based on reviews. Two types. One is popular voting of best movies (website is Rotten Tomatoes). Other is expert recommendation. But this depends on the expert. If the expert is Roger Ebert. I give that recommendation a different weight that if the recommendation is from my 7 year old daughter. The point is they are both experts but have different tastes. After I have seen the movie, sometimes I agree/disagree with Roger Ebert, sometimes I agree/disagree with my daughter. The best one that seems to work for me is Rotten Tomatoes, (users, mostly film fanatics, vote on whether they like or dislike a movie.)

I think, You gave answer on your questions:
"Or does that mean 99% will prefer the Top Grade? Which case is AGS0 versus AGS2? GIA Ex vs GIA VG? I don''t know. How can a consumer make an intelligent choice between AGS0 and AGS2 without seeing for themselves?"

there are other answers on your questions too. I hope your answers are good enough for you. There are diffirent wines, there are diffirent diamonds.
"What is best ?" is wrong question for diamonds and wines. Right question: What is best way for you to find best wine( diamond) for you and be happy?

 

[oldminer]

"Dave, great article and now I''ll put you on the hot seat. Suppose I were a consumer and had sent you both those stones for a comparison and an opinion. You''ve seen both stones, run all the tech tests (HCA, ASSET, IS, Imagem) and did a visual observation. You presumably know the retail internet prices of both. Or you should be able to calculate that. Based on all that. What would your recommendation be if I asked you what the best buy was? Okay that''s a loaded question, like asking which is better D color or G color. But it''s fair to have a consumer ask the appraiser "which should I buy" As this particular example is a heated one, feel free to give a non-answer. "

"And as a second question, what does this tell you about the strengths and limitations of the tools when they meet the real world?
I think there was a video where Peter Yantzer was saying that one thing that all the cut tools couldn''t factor in was individual preference. I''ll paraphrase him. The scientists might all say the sky is green(beautiful/ugly) but you could look out your window and say those scientists are nuts the sky is blue (ugly/beautiful). Kudos to him for that acknowledgement. "

Whatmeworry: Great questions!

I do not go out of my way to promote ideal cut diamonds over regular cut diamonds. I give the consumer the options and the choices. I can provide results of tests and images for those who wish to rely on them. I give my own opinion of how nice a diamond looks compared to another, but it remains my own taste, not necessarily theirs. There may be reason to give my opinion more weight than their own, but it is up to the consumer to decide what is credible and to look at the appearances and make the balanced buget decisons on their own. I can often tell someone which is a better value such as asking price versus wholesale calculated cost. This can have an effect on a decision, but when you are spending thousands of dollars, do you make your final choice on a few hundred bucks and buy a diamond you don''t prefer? Few people opt for the value decision method unless there is a blatant problem of mis-value on a stone. I also don''t promote D color over G color. Both look great to me and I like the price differential. Some consumers want D or E and do not want to save the money. They want what they believe they like best. I don''t judge them as it is their option. I don''t think nature cares when creating diamonds. I have little idea if D color is truly far more scarce than G color. In large diamonds, a D color is less rare than in small diamonds, so really, the color game is a minor fiction and marketing, not just based only on supply and demand. This is a deep subject unto itself.

On your second paragraph, I tend to agree with Peter, a very nice guy, who I believe has our best interests at heart. Of course, the success of AGSL is foremost. I do have a problem with AGSL claiming to be first in certain issues of cut grading when there is some question about others being ahead of them. Its minor stuff and not enough to get angry about. Tools do not directly disclose beauty, but sufficient human testing does correlate to the results well researched tools give us. This correlation is not perfect, but it is very good. I have NEVER met anyone who bought a fine I-S or HCA performer and found the stone lacking beauty. Where the entire thing falls apart is two or three grades of cut below the top where some diamonds still look great and others are sad looking. There are so many variables that predictions fall way short of beauty correlation once you go down a couple rungs on the ladder of cut grade. You know, the sky is always blue in the daytime above the clouds, but when the clouds invade the blue is not apparent to us. The lighting and "characteristics of the diamond": cut, transparency, color, fluorescence, and clarity all play a role in appeal and appearance. Some of these are not adequately addressed by I-S, ASET, DiamCalc or HCA. It all depends on the exact characteristics for each diamond.

THANKS FOR THE COMMENTS


I know we can create machines that tell us a lot, but thankfully, we are human beings. We have unique minds and unique preceptions of reality. I would not opt to change that. I also would not give up my personal choice so llong as it does not hurt the rights of my fellow beings. This is on many planes, not just with diamonds.

 

[diagem]

re: "I also don''t promote D color over G color. Both look great to me and I like the price differential. Some consumers want D or E and do not want to save the money. They want what they believe they like best. I don''t judge them as it is their option. I don''t think nature cares when creating diamonds. I have little idea if D color is truly far more scarce than G color. In large diamonds, a D color is less rare than in small diamonds, so really, the color game is a minor fiction and marketing, not just based only on supply and demand. This is a deep subject unto itself."



I am confused....

 

[Regular Guy]

Dave, many thanks for bringing forward this discussion, with a renewed view.

Further, the discussion that has followed adds a breath of fresh air.

First, I''ll add the suggestion, based on the sufi wisdom, that we may be mostly like pickpockets.

The saying: when thieves see people, all they see are their pockets.

Question: To what extent do proportions tell the whole story, anyway?

Having seen a model Serg did some years ago, I''d say it is very compelling that it represents most of the story...further as evidenced by the massive direction of the industry.

With respect to this board, I think this will get some heart attacks:

Date: 5/22/2009 3:39:14 AM
Author: Serg
ASET, IS is Night Vision systems

and I think here Serg is maybe finally speaking the words behind his twice made statements about the religion seen on this board.

Otherwise, I like the way my pretty old post tries to lay out the land, but it''s long.

 

[oldminer]

DiaGem: I is a rather well known fact that nature has supplied us with a greater proportion of larger diamonds, over 5.00ct, with D color than smaller diamonds with D color. This is DeBeers data, not mine.

Regular Guy: "Question: To what extent do proportions tell the whole story, anyway?" I would respond that the popular images paint of marketable and compelling picture, but do NOT tell the "whole story". I have treid to impress in my conversations with RockDiamond that these images do correlate to human perception in many ways, but are not absolute proofs of subjective beauty to all individuals. I have encouraged the use of these images because they are successful in making sales and consumers can understand them. Images are not equivalent to beauty, but they are good indicators of promising stones. When one looks to shop, one must sacreen out and eliminate stones first. Then, one looks more closely at the remainder. Anything which helps consumers to screen with success has a place in the process.