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60/60 or ideal cut. How do you know what to choose

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diagem

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Date: 5/22/2009 2:26:13 PM
Author: oldminer
DiaGem: I is a rather well known fact that nature has supplied us with a greater proportion of larger diamonds, over 5.00ct, with D color than smaller diamonds with D color. This is DeBeers data, not mine.

Regular Guy: ''Question: To what extent do proportions tell the whole story, anyway?'' I would respond that the popular images paint of marketable and compelling picture, but do NOT tell the ''whole story''. I have treid to impress in my conversations with RockDiamond that these images do correlate to human perception in many ways, but are not absolute proofs of subjective beauty to all individuals. I have encouraged the use of these images because they are successful in making sales and consumers can understand them. Images are not equivalent to beauty, but they are good indicators of promising stones. When one looks to shop, one must sacreen out and eliminate stones first. Then, one looks more closely at the remainder. Anything which helps consumers to screen with success has a place in the process.
Dave, its the first time I am hearing this!
Can you show me some data? It will be super interesting!

Just doesnt make sense (to me).
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Date: 5/22/2009 4:59:10 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 5/22/2009 2:26:13 PM
Author: oldminer
DiaGem: I is a rather well known fact that nature has supplied us with a greater proportion of larger diamonds, over 5.00ct, with D color than smaller diamonds with D color. This is DeBeers data, not mine.

Regular Guy: ''Question: To what extent do proportions tell the whole story, anyway?'' I would respond that the popular images paint of marketable and compelling picture, but do NOT tell the ''whole story''. I have treid to impress in my conversations with RockDiamond that these images do correlate to human perception in many ways, but are not absolute proofs of subjective beauty to all individuals. I have encouraged the use of these images because they are successful in making sales and consumers can understand them. Images are not equivalent to beauty, but they are good indicators of promising stones. When one looks to shop, one must sacreen out and eliminate stones first. Then, one looks more closely at the remainder. Anything which helps consumers to screen with success has a place in the process.
Dave, its the first time I am hearing this!
Can you show me some data? It will be super interesting!

Just doesnt make sense (to me).
I think the issue is that many very very large roughs are type II and can often be colourless
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Dave your approach to this is very respectful
36.gif
 

diagem

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Date: 5/22/2009 7:31:01 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 5/22/2009 4:59:10 PM
Author: DiaGem


Date: 5/22/2009 2:26:13 PM
Author: oldminer
DiaGem: I is a rather well known fact that nature has supplied us with a greater proportion of larger diamonds, over 5.00ct, with D color than smaller diamonds with D color. This is DeBeers data, not mine.

Regular Guy: ''Question: To what extent do proportions tell the whole story, anyway?'' I would respond that the popular images paint of marketable and compelling picture, but do NOT tell the ''whole story''. I have treid to impress in my conversations with RockDiamond that these images do correlate to human perception in many ways, but are not absolute proofs of subjective beauty to all individuals. I have encouraged the use of these images because they are successful in making sales and consumers can understand them. Images are not equivalent to beauty, but they are good indicators of promising stones. When one looks to shop, one must sacreen out and eliminate stones first. Then, one looks more closely at the remainder. Anything which helps consumers to screen with success has a place in the process.
Dave, its the first time I am hearing this!
Can you show me some data? It will be super interesting!

Just doesnt make sense (to me).
I think the issue is that many very very large roughs are type II and can often be colourless
So there is a HUGE stock-pile (somewhere) of over 5ct D colors sitting in some rough producers safes...
6.gif


Cause in reality...., the smaller the weight the more D colors you encounter.

Let see a(ny) manufacturers ability to supplying 100 D colored Diamonds of 2ct vs. 100 D colored 0.20ct. or smaller.
 

whatmeworry

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Date: 5/22/2009 4:10:38 AM
Author: Serg

Date: 5/22/2009 3:50:55 AM
Author: whatmeworry
Okay. Got it. Happy hour time, I''ll think about it and get back to you.

See my remarks of margin of error. What is margin of error of ASSET, IS, etc? Can bad ASSET/IS = good diamond?


Good ASET/IS could be for bad diamonds.
for diamonds with Great Fire ASET/IS could be bad.

re:Or does that mean 99% will prefer the Top Grade? Which case is AGS0 versus AGS2? GIA Ex vs GIA VG? I don''t know. How can a consumer make an intelligent choice between AGS0 and AGS2 without seeing for themselves?

How do you select wine? Did you try to buy wine with price 100$-1000$ per bottle? You can not open bottle and test it before you bought it.
Thanks Serge,
This is the thing that we never really here regarding tools. Back to the analogy, if a consumer only used jewellery lighting to pick a diamond, he could be disappointed with it in another lighting environment. If a consumer only used ASET/IS to screen diamonds, he could reject a diamond with great fire/scintillation. Because ASET/IS doesn''t tell you anything about disperson or scintillation.
Should you look for a different ASET if you want to use as earrings?
Consumers know all about the strengths of these tools/grading systems. They are marketed to us. But we are not told the weaknesses/limitations.
 

Serg

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Date: 5/23/2009 1:56:22 AM
Author: whatmeworry
Date: 5/22/2009 4:10:38 AM

Author: Serg


Date: 5/22/2009 3:50:55 AM

Author: whatmeworry

Okay. Got it. Happy hour time, I''ll think about it and get back to you.


See my remarks of margin of error. What is margin of error of ASSET, IS, etc? Can bad ASSET/IS = good diamond?



Good ASET/IS could be for bad diamonds.

for diamonds with Great Fire ASET/IS could be bad.



re:Or does that mean 99% will prefer the Top Grade? Which case is AGS0 versus AGS2? GIA Ex vs GIA VG? I don''t know. How can a consumer make an intelligent choice between AGS0 and AGS2 without seeing for themselves?


How do you select wine? Did you try to buy wine with price 100$-1000$ per bottle? You can not open bottle and test it before you bought it.

Thanks Serge,

This is the thing that we never really here regarding tools. Back to the analogy, if a consumer only used jewellery lighting to pick a diamond, he could be disappointed with it in another lighting environment. If a consumer only used ASET/IS to screen diamonds, he could reject a diamond with great fire/scintillation. Because ASET/IS doesn''t tell you anything about disperson or scintillation.

Should you look for a different ASET if you want to use as earrings?

Consumers know all about the strengths of these tools/grading systems. They are marketed to us. But we are not told the weaknesses/limitations.

FS/IS/ASET/H&A and ANY other structure light tools are rejections tools ( or selection tools depends from point of view)
Such tools is very helpful if you found beautiful diamonds and want repeat it . In such case these tools could very fast and value for money help you to understand how is big Optical difference Between Standard and other diamonds which you consider to buy. Such tools are very helpful for manufactures, It is QUALITY control tools . Nothing more , nothing less. I tried explain it several times 7-8 years ago on DT, There were long discussion about FS, *8,.../ May be you can find it now yet.

But such Quality control tools can not Grade diamonds which are far away from Standard diamond( what had been used to create structure tool and rules to READ results of observation).
If you need tools to select best diamond for earrings, somebody needs firstly develop best diamonds for earring, then use this diamond to create new ASET( new selection tools and rules to read results of observations )

ASET, IS,.. can not grade Fire/Scintillation/Brilliancy for ANY( arbitrary) diamond. It does not work even for RBC with some type digit-out and painting.
Several Years ago we publish simple example of French square Cut( Perfect IS, Good ASET but Dead diamond)

GARRY, where did we publish this example? Could you help find it now? Was it Indian presentation?

IS, ASET are very helpful instruments to reject diamonds with high Leakage . High Leakage is bad for Brilliancy . I do not know other ways to Use ASET or IS to develop new beautiful cuts /

Good cut should collect light from different direction and catch even single light in room . structure lights like ASET/FS/IS/H&A can not grade such main cut function/ There are very other important cut functions what can not been grade ASET/IS// lights/ You can easy understand it if you will understand how CUT WORKS
 

whatmeworry

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Date: 5/22/2009 8:50:38 AM
Author: oldminer

On your second paragraph, I tend to agree with Peter, a very nice guy, who I believe has our best interests at heart. Of course, the success of AGSL is foremost. I do have a problem with AGSL claiming to be first in certain issues of cut grading when there is some question about others being ahead of them. Its minor stuff and not enough to get angry about. Tools do not directly disclose beauty, but sufficient human testing does correlate to the results well researched tools give us. This correlation is not perfect, but it is very good. I have NEVER met anyone who bought a fine I-S or HCA performer and found the stone lacking beauty. Where the entire thing falls apart is two or three grades of cut below the top where some diamonds still look great and others are sad looking. There are so many variables that predictions fall way short of beauty correlation once you go down a couple rungs on the ladder of cut grade. You know, the sky is always blue in the daytime above the clouds, but when the clouds invade the blue is not apparent to us. The lighting and ''characteristics of the diamond'': cut, transparency, color, fluorescence, and clarity all play a role in appeal and appearance. Some of these are not adequately addressed by I-S, ASET, DiamCalc or HCA. It all depends on the exact characteristics for each diamond.

I can think of two of the top of my head.
1) There was the painted diamond example that Rhino used that had looked good by the numbers and the IS.
2) Some posters have mentioned how their ideal diamonds tend to lack beauty in direct sunlight.
 

Ellen

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Date: 5/23/2009 2:53:11 AM
Author: whatmeworry

Date: 5/22/2009 8:50:38 AM
Author: oldminer


On your second paragraph, I tend to agree with Peter, a very nice guy, who I believe has our best interests at heart. Of course, the success of AGSL is foremost. I do have a problem with AGSL claiming to be first in certain issues of cut grading when there is some question about others being ahead of them. Its minor stuff and not enough to get angry about. Tools do not directly disclose beauty, but sufficient human testing does correlate to the results well researched tools give us. This correlation is not perfect, but it is very good. I have NEVER met anyone who bought a fine I-S or HCA performer and found the stone lacking beauty. Where the entire thing falls apart is two or three grades of cut below the top where some diamonds still look great and others are sad looking. There are so many variables that predictions fall way short of beauty correlation once you go down a couple rungs on the ladder of cut grade. You know, the sky is always blue in the daytime above the clouds, but when the clouds invade the blue is not apparent to us. The lighting and ''characteristics of the diamond'': cut, transparency, color, fluorescence, and clarity all play a role in appeal and appearance. Some of these are not adequately addressed by I-S, ASET, DiamCalc or HCA. It all depends on the exact characteristics for each diamond.

I can think of two of the top of my head.
1) There was the painted diamond example that Rhino used that had looked good by the numbers and the IS.
2) Some posters have mentioned how their ideal diamonds tend to lack beauty in direct sunlight.
I''m taking Dave''s statement to mean "overall". But I could be wrong, please correct me if I am Dave.

I wouldn''t say the look an Ideal takes on in the sun is lacking beauty, as much as I would say that''s a certain look "among many" that the poster doesn''t find attractive. To get the diamond to not appear characteristically dark in sun, I think would mean compromising the cut enough that then it really would be lacking overall/across the board, to a small or large extent. (at least that''s been my own experience with my pre-ps so-so cuts vs. my newer Ideals)

To the experts, would that be fair to say?
 

strmrdr

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Date: 5/23/2009 10:12:16 AM
Author: Ellen
I''m taking Dave''s statement to mean ''overall''. But I could be wrong, please correct me if I am Dave.


I wouldn''t say the look an Ideal takes on in the sun is lacking beauty, as much as I would say that''s a certain look ''among many'' that the poster doesn''t find attractive. To get the diamond to not appear characteristically dark in sun, I think would mean compromising the cut enough that then it really would be lacking overall/across the board, to a small or large extent. (at least that''s been my own experience with my pre-ps so-so cuts vs. my newer Ideals)


To the experts, would that be fair to say?
Yes designing a diamond just for sunlight would be a very bad idea.
It would look dead inside the house and in a office.
What is interesting is a well cut RB gets hammered for being to efficient in sunlight and the limitation is human not diamond.
Reflect the light the diamond is returning off another object rather than looking at it direct and you have one of the best light shows a diamond can produce.
What I love to do is close the blinds on a sunny day and adjust one slat so a beam of sunlight comes in, then set my chair near it and reflect the sunlight all over the room with a gemstone.
The same thing works in a car while sitting at a light or in parking lot.
yummy!
 

Stephan

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Here is a nice 60/60 (found on James Allen''s website):

report

ADS-4353PIC.JPG
 

Ellen

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Date: 5/23/2009 12:40:20 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/23/2009 10:12:16 AM
Author: Ellen
I''m taking Dave''s statement to mean ''overall''. But I could be wrong, please correct me if I am Dave.


I wouldn''t say the look an Ideal takes on in the sun is lacking beauty, as much as I would say that''s a certain look ''among many'' that the poster doesn''t find attractive. To get the diamond to not appear characteristically dark in sun, I think would mean compromising the cut enough that then it really would be lacking overall/across the board, to a small or large extent. (at least that''s been my own experience with my pre-ps so-so cuts vs. my newer Ideals)


To the experts, would that be fair to say?
Yes designing a diamond just for sunlight would be a very bad idea.
It would look dead inside the house and in a office.
What is interesting is a well cut RB gets hammered for being to efficient in sunlight and the limitation is human not diamond.
Reflect the light the diamond is returning off another object rather than looking at it direct and you have one of the best light shows a diamond can produce.
What I love to do is close the blinds on a sunny day and adjust one slat so a beam of sunlight comes in, then set my chair near it and reflect the sunlight all over the room with a gemstone.
The same thing works in a car while sitting at a light or in parking lot.
yummy!
I totally agree, with everything. The light show that comes off it is some of the best!
30.gif
I do the car thing a lot.
9.gif



And thankies.
28.gif
 

whatmeworry

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Date: 5/23/2009 12:40:20 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/23/2009 10:12:16 AM
Author: Ellen
I''m taking Dave''s statement to mean ''overall''. But I could be wrong, please correct me if I am Dave.


I wouldn''t say the look an Ideal takes on in the sun is lacking beauty, as much as I would say that''s a certain look ''among many'' that the poster doesn''t find attractive. To get the diamond to not appear characteristically dark in sun, I think would mean compromising the cut enough that then it really would be lacking overall/across the board, to a small or large extent. (at least that''s been my own experience with my pre-ps so-so cuts vs. my newer Ideals)


To the experts, would that be fair to say?
Yes designing a diamond just for sunlight would be a very bad idea.
It would look dead inside the house and in a office.
What is interesting is a well cut RB gets hammered for being to efficient in sunlight and the limitation is human not diamond.
Reflect the light the diamond is returning off another object rather than looking at it direct and you have one of the best light shows a diamond can produce.
What I love to do is close the blinds on a sunny day and adjust one slat so a beam of sunlight comes in, then set my chair near it and reflect the sunlight all over the room with a gemstone.
The same thing works in a car while sitting at a light or in parking lot.
yummy!

So what would be the ideal cut for a diamond to that?
1.gif
. None of the scientists can predict, how, when, where, or how you will evaluate your diamond.

In the colored gemstone world, cutters use leakage to artistic effect (Richard Homer''s snowflake as an example). I can''t think of them of the top of my head but there are some diamonds that are intentionally cut to create patterns (don''t know if leakage is the actual mechanism). How would you grade those? More specifically, many people love OECs but I imagine those would get hammered by the tools.

Here''s Dave''s statement "I have NEVER met anyone who bought a fine I-S or HCA performer and found the stone lacking beauty."
What statement is the most accurate? Which one would vendors be most likely to use?
a) A fine IS performer is a beautiful stone
b) A fine IS performer is an overall beautiful stone.
 

Rockdiamond

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Whatmeworry- I believe we''re asking the same question.
If a stone that does not do well on the IS is just as pretty to many interested viewers as a stone that does well on the reflector test, what does that tell us?
If one person''s idea of "performance" is different than another''s, what then?
If only an expert or a machine can show why one stone''s performance is better, how important is that aspect of performance?
If someone prefers a stone that can be shown to be deficient to another based on a machine, who is "right"?


None of the experts on reflector technology seem to want to tackle that one.


Like whatmeworry, I have also spoken to people who bought stones that performed well on IS, and HCA, yet were not happy with the way the stone looked in person.

The fact is, many diamond lovers WILL choose a stone with slightly larger table, if given the choice.
Sad to say the choices today are more limited.
 

Regular Guy

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Date: 5/22/2009 4:10:38 AM
Author: Serg


Good ASET/IS could be for bad diamonds.
for diamonds with Great Fire ASET/IS could be bad.

re:Or does that mean 99% will prefer the Top Grade? Which case is AGS0 versus AGS2? GIA Ex vs GIA VG? I don''t know. How can a consumer make an intelligent choice between AGS0 and AGS2 without seeing for themselves?

How do you select wine? Did you try to buy wine with price 100$-1000$ per bottle? You can not open bottle and test it before you bought it.
Are there some workable tools for direct assessment of fire?
 
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