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2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference?

Discussion in 'Colored Gemstones' started by kenny, Jul 6, 2010.

  1. kenny
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    by kenny » Jul 6, 2010
    Both are untreated Kashmir Blue Sapphire from the same vendor.

    Stone 1: http://kashmirblue.com/Sapphire/Certs/profileLG10329.html is waiting for its GRS Certificate.
    Stone 2: http://kashmirblue.com/Sapphire/Certs/profileLG10351.html has its AGL report.

    Stone 1 vs. Stone 2:
    Weight 1.6 vs. 2.03 ct
    Depth% 90 vs. 76
    Tone% 80 vs. 75-80
    Average brilliance 75% vs. 80-100
    Clarity MI2 vs. :LI2

    Price $ 2,200 vs. 11,500

    Clearly the second one should cost more . . but why is it over five times the price?
    Is AGL more reputable than GRS?
    What am I missing?
    Is the price mostly set by things not graded on the report?

    000LG10329.jpg

    000LG10351.jpg
     
  2. Edward Bristol
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    by Edward Bristol » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Cleary, the second is much much better.

    The first one is too dark, more inky blue, there is something in the lower middle outside of the girdle (some reflection), the shape is very common and not nice.

    Squarish shapes with a vibrant blue (this is not Kashmir blue to be) are very sought after.
     
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  3. T L
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    by T L » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    I agree with Ed, the color on the second one is finer. The top one is a bit dark and not velvety as a traditional Kashmir. Just note that because a gem comes from a premier location, that does not automatically make it fine quality. ;))

    The top one also appears to have some purple in it to my eye, which decreases the value. A fine sapphire should be a pure spectral blue color and also make sure it doesn't shift to a more violet color as well, unless you want a color shifting sapphire. Just note they are not as desired as a fine sapphire that holds it's color well.

    AGL is the only gem lab in the world that gives a note about the quality of color. It is run by one of the premier colored gem experts in the world, and I value it above all other labs as far as colored gems are concerned, and many in the trade do as well. However, GRS is highly respected, but I have some issues with the metaphors they use when describing color (ie "pigeon blood").
     
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  4. chrono
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    by chrono » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    You have made good observations about the price difference between the two:
    1. Yes, there is a price jump at the 2 carat mark,
    2. Yes, there is a higher price for a stone that is better cut.
    3. Yes, there is a higher price for a stone that is just at the right tone versus one that is too dark and inky.
    4. Yes, there is a price difference for a stone that is livelier and more brilliant.
    5. Yes, the price difference you noted is correct.

    In the gemstone world, even just a slight difference in hue, tone and saturation can be thousands of dollars, depending on the rarity of material. And yes, while GRS is reputable, as of now, only AGL does a very detailed report on the colour quality
     
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  5. VapidLapid
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    by VapidLapid » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Yes the color and softness of th esecond one is better. The top one also is strongly zoned,as the vendor states, though that is less obvious from this angle. The second is certified and the first is not (though cert is expected soon (( though vendor has been saying that for quite a while ((( and a few months ago this was listed at $2000 if I remember rightly )))))). Top one is a awkward shape as Edward said.
     
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  6. chrono
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    by chrono » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Something I’d like to ask here as well with regards to blue sapphires. I have been informed by some vendors and others in the trade that the most highly prized blue sapphires should have a touch of violet, namely vB6/5 which is violetish blue hue of medium dark tone and vivid saturation. Yet, I understand the pursuit for that purity of hue, so shouldn’t it be a pure blue in the case of blue sapphires? Since pricing is dictated by slight differences in colour, I’d like some clarification on this.
     
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  7. soberguy
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    by soberguy » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Stone 2 has wonderful rutile silk, and better color imho.
     
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  8. T L
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    by T L » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    I heard that some people prefer the more pure blue hue. Even with the case of a secondary of violet, I would think it would still be a minimal amount of violet. If you get too much, then the sapphire does lose much of it's value. I'd also like some clarification since we have both heard different things.
     
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  9. colormyworld
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    by colormyworld » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Hmmm, I wonder which of those stones would catch my eye from across a crowed room.
     
  10. Rockit
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    by Rockit » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    In terms of the comparison stones the OP posted, I don't think there is much more to add. Actually, I am almost surprised there isn't MORE difference in price between the two gems.

    Regarding the blue color issue, sometimes, I think you get to a point where the fine line between pure spectral color and slightly modified color (with an attractive modifier) is SUCH a fine line that it doesn't much matter. I know that I prefer a little violet in the blue. However, I usually shop from a fellow who values the pure spectral blue. So. we now know what's "best" for each of us.

    When shopping for "the ultimate blue" colored sapphire, pricing for blue with a bit of violet, and pricing for pure spectral blue (all other characteristics being near-equal), has been quite similar in my experience. Has it been so for the rest of you? And, my conversations with vendors has led to no great opinion one way or the other. So, I'm gong to venture to say that there is no one "correct" answer to this query... dealers have tone preferences just like the rest of us folks and they probably price accordingly. Some like it BLUE and some like it VIOLETISH BLUE. I am curious to hear what some of the pros here think.

    And, while we are on the subject, I am curious to know if there seems to be a preference for one "ultimate blue" or the other marked by geographical region.
     
  11. Barrett
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    by Barrett » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    hehehehe..kashmir blue..is that a color in my crayola crayon box?
     
  12. T L
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    by T L » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Yes, Kashmir is supposed to have the best, followed by Burma, and then Ceylon. Some African gems are quite lovely too. I think Burmese stones tend to have that slight touch of violet, but don't quote me on that.
     
  13. movie zombie
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    by movie zombie » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    kenny, can you or did you go to Pala? would certainly be educational......
    also, don't forget richard wise's book: sapphires are "his thing" and he devotes a lot of page space to them.

    i've seen a $38,000 sapphire not much bigger than these and i can tell you there really is a difference.


    mz
     
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  14. Rockit
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    by Rockit » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Thanks, TL. Sorry, I wasn't clear and I think you misunderstood my question. What I meant was, can anyone say whether or not there a general preference for pure blue over violetish blue or vice verse in one geographical region over another? For example, do people in the East prefer spectral while Westerners prefer the violetish (or something like that). Kind of a weird question, I know.
     
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  15. Barrett
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    by Barrett » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    yes..TL is right but keep in mind the best burma sapphires can/will be better than any kashmir..just like with my JXR ammy's..the best zambians can/will beat JXR material..not sure if the kashmir thing has to do with the overall quality of color for the majority of stones?? so say you have a kilo of kashmir and a kilo of ceylon/sri lanka material..will the majority of best blues come from the kashmir stuff..or let me put it this way..will more finer blues come from any given amount of material from kashmir than sri lanka? or do you think it has to do with being an early 20th century fad have something to do with it..I mean back then there were only so many locations that produced good blues...side by side a fine burma will be just as good if not better than any kashmir..where/when did kashmir come to be the end all be all..even some fine sri lanka material is just as good if not better than most kashmir old mine material...hmm..maybe Richard can chime in or Ed..sure you can say it's the velvety thing but lots of sappphires have that..antyways it's a defunct location now so why even compare anything to it anymore..same with the siberian ammy's..back when these were all considered the best the world was a much smaller place..less to choose from..nowadays all these so called best are antiquated..anyone care to chime in?
     
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  16. LD
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    by LD » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Another one who would opt for number 2 as clearly the better stone because:-

    1. Colour is far superior
    2. The silkyness (is that a word? lol) is highly prized by some
    3. The size - over 2ct

    The first one is too dark and the cut (although difficult to tell from the angle of the photo) looks "off".
     
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  17. serenitydiamonds
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    by serenitydiamonds » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    This is a fabulous example on how very important color is in the price of a color gemstone. A slight difference in color can and will change the gem's price an order of magnitude. In fact, the best way to determine how good the seller considers color is by how the gem is priced. Naturally this applies for high quality gem material only from reputable dealers with a grading report.

    --Joshua
     
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  18. kenny
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    by kenny » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Gosh! Too bad this 42-ct is taken. ;(
    Oh well, 3.5 Million is just a smidge over budget.
    (I guess I DO have a budget.) :mrgreen:

    Interesting write up though:
    http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5138917

    How odd and surprising to learn that an inclusion (silk) in Kashmir Blue Sapphires actually increases the value.
    Is this the only gem where that happens?

    42point28carat.png
     
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  19. movie zombie
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    by movie zombie » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    the horsetail veil of russian demantoid garnet comes to mind.

    proof of authenticity resulted in increased value.

    mz
     
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  20. kenny
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    by kenny » Jul 6, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    Imagine if you were the owner/miner/cutter and had a large flawless Kashmir Blue (or Russian demantoid garnet) but the labs could not determine origin because there were no inclusions. ;( ;( ;(
     
  21. marcy
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    by marcy » Jul 7, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    I agree the color and cut of the second one is much better. That is my favorite color of sapphire.
     
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  22. RaiKai
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    by RaiKai » Jul 7, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    The silk is what gives it that velvety texture and beautiful glow, and the appeal of Kashmir's is that velvet glow - so hence the increase in value. Without that silk, it would just be a "regular" sapphire and not worth as much. Not all stones from Kashmir have that velvet glow, and therefore are not worth as much.

    Someone else noted the horsetail feature in russian demantoid garnets. Which is a very interesting inclusion indeed!

    In many stones, inclusions are accepted as part of the character of the stone, and while they may not "increase" value, they don't exactly negate it either. Natural emeralds for example generally have lots of natural inclusions, and this is sort of accepted as the nature of the stone.

    Inclusions in coloured stones are a big thing as they do help one determine whether they are natural untreated, natural treated (and how treated), or synthetic. So, they don't quite have the same impact on value as, say, inclusions in diamonds do.
     
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  23. movie zombie
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    by movie zombie » Jul 7, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    and remember pardeu [spelling?] who posted here? he preferred color stones with inclusions as they had personality and also as a way of identifying your stone when it came back from being set/appraised.

    mz
     
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  24. serenitydiamonds
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    by serenitydiamonds » Jul 7, 2010
    Re: 2 Kashmir Blue Sapphires - Why the huge price difference

    It happens with many gems. For color gems certain inclusions can add texture and effects to the base color that really increase the desirability and rarity of a gem. In Emeralds there is a very rare inclusion that we talked about a couple weeks ago called 'Gota de Aciete'. It is extremely rare and will carry just about any price the owner decides to set.

    --Joshua
     
  25. tigertales
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  26. lmyracle
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    by lmyracle » Jan 5, 2019
    Wow.....42ct!?:$$): That’s impressive!

    I love looking at the silks and little inclusions in my Ceylon with a loupe. It just fascinates me really!
     
  27. Anne111
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    by Anne111 » Jan 8, 2019
    My first thought was: since it's the same seller, why not ask him?
     
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  28. voce
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    by voce » Jan 11, 2019
    So far people have mentioned emeralds and Russian demantoid. I would like to add Burmese ruby. Often it's the inclusions that identify it as unheated Burmese, and silky inclusions tend to hide windows and extinction and color unevenness.
     

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