2 carat round steep and deep

[bachelor78]

Hi All,

I'm new to diamonds and have been looking for a 2c round stone for a few weeks. Without realizing the whole GIA steep/deep issue, I advised a local jeweler that my parameters were F Si1 and excellent cut. Not knowing much about diamonds, I purchased the following diamond for 30K.

2c
7.99x8.03x5.05
Table: 56%
Total Depth: 63.1% (this number is above what some sources say the MAXIMUM depth for a GIA excellent should be)
CA: 36.5
PA: 41 (this is apparently ok, but not coupled with such a steep CA?)
Crown depth: 16%
Pavillion Depth: 43.5%
Girdle: medium to slightly thick (faceted) 3.5%

I am very concerned that it falls squarely within the GIA "Steep/deep" zone and does not merit its XXX rating. It scored poorly on HCA (4.9) and is a "bad" stone. I would greatly appreciate some advice. I'm willing to spend a bit more for a better cut or downgrade the color for a better cut. I want a real "XXX" and not a steep/deep XXX. I'm very disappointed in the GIA rating system and don't believe it is at all transparent to uninformed consumers like myself. There should be no question that XXX diamond is a fine diamond, and from all the talk here it appears there are many many diamonds rated XXX that are in fact poor performers.

 

[Lorelei]

Hi Bachelor, welcome to Pricescope!

It's great that you have been reading up and have a good understanding of the rudiments of cut quality, that has put you streets ahead of many consumers! What's the situation with this diamond, have you had it set and proposed, received the stone when you got engaged or is it on approval from your jeweller? If you could let us know, that would help then we can find out how best to help you from there. It might not be a ' bad' stone at all, there are other factors that could influence how it looks and performs that basic numbers and papers won't show, so hold on and we will see what's the best way to proceed!

 

[TC1987]

Return it if possible is what everyone here will say. If you can't get a refund and can only get store credit, people here can pick better GIA stones off the "virtual list" that your jeweler can call in for you. Return it for refund and buy something better online will be better, but things don't always work out that way. PS is a great resource, isn't it.

Oh, and if you are forced to keep that particular stone, Brian Gavin and Good Old Gold can advise you on potentially recutting it for better performance. It's affordable. I had one one recut by Brian Gavin. Sometimes they can shave some off and you don't lose much weight or diameter but wind up with AGS 000 cut grade nonetheless. Certain types of inclusions in certain locations may preclude that, but they will tell you that.

 

[bachelor78]

I've "purchased" the stone and put a deposit down, but I think I can work with the jeweler to get a different stone. It was actually sent out to be set last night, but I'm in the process of recalling the stone now. I'm just floored by the GIA grading system. This stone seems well outside of the bounds of acceptability from what I have read on this forum, but to the layman XXX is XXX. I've looked at the GIA chart, and this table/PA/CA combo is the very last that qualifies as excellent. I'm doubly concerned because this is 2 C on the dot, which makes me think some stonecutter plugged it into a program to get max weight and still get graded excellent. I think I'd be more comfortable with something like 2.05, which would tell me that the cut was not compromised to hit the 2.0 mark.

 

[Andelain]

I've "purchased" the stone and put a deposit down, but I think I can work with the jeweler to get a different stone. It was actually sent out to be set last night, but I'm in the process of recalling the stone now. I'm just floored by the GIA grading system. This stone seems well outside of the bounds of acceptability from what I have read on this forum, but to the layman XXX is XXX. I've looked at the GIA chart, and this table/PA/CA combo is the very last that qualifies as excellent. I'm doubly concerned because this is 2 C on the dot, which makes me think some stonecutter plugged it into a program to get max weight and still get graded excellent. I think I'd be more comfortable with something like 2.05, which would tell me that the cut was not compromised to hit the 2.0 mark.

That's exactly what happened. And I wouldn't blindly trust a 2.05 not to have been done the same way. Run the numbers of any that you're considering by us before you commit.

 

[luvdajules]

What color/clarity are you looking for? For a 2 ct. round at a $30k budget (with some room) I'm guessing G VS2 or better? Obviously, with excellent cut or AGS0 with Ideal light performance. Are you okay with an eye clean Si2? Phoenix has a 2.5+ ct. H/Si2 eye clean H&A she is selling in pre-loved section for $29k. It's from Brian Gavin Signature line. I'm sure the expert stone selectors will be chiming in soon!

 

[AprilBaby]

The stone Phoenix has is a beauty if you don't mind pre-owned. No bad karma with it.

 

[John P]

Hi Bachelor,

The downside of the GIA EX combo you posted is (generalization) a tendency to be less bright in low lighting, compared to a more optimum combo.

It might not be a ' bad' stone at all, there are other factors that could influence how it looks and performs that basic numbers and papers won't show, so hold on and we will see what's the best way to proceed!

True. If the diamond has great cut-consistency and precision, and some clever choices were made in brillianteering, the brightness could have been improved over the general indications. But it really depends on many facts not in-evidence.

Example: Here are posts in a thread about a diamond close to those specs which the cutter coaxed to AGS0.
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...on-this-diamond.201507/#post-3664708#p3664708
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...s-diamond.201507/page-2#post-3665642#p3665642

Those links explain an exception to the rule, and one I'd wager was sent to AGS specifically because the cutting goal (finishing at 1.9x cts) was to receive the Ideal light performance grade.

I'm doubly concerned because this is 2 C on the dot, which makes me think some stonecutter plugged it into a program to get max weight and still get graded excellent. I think I'd be more comfortable with something like 2.05, which would tell me that the cut was not compromised to hit the 2.0 mark.

In the big picture I'm inclined to agree with your plugged-program theory. Yield is the #1 priority for manufacturers. With that said, don't feel that you need to rise above a "magic weight" to be safe, and know that adding points is not a safety-guarantee. There are dozens of factors which influence the plan and the finish. Assess each diamond on its specific data points.

Keeping all of this in context: Do know that - through education here - you may become more discerning than many jewelry pros care to be about cut. That is not a bad thing. Unlike color and clarity, where the subdivisions are minute, there are broad differences allowed within a single cut grade.

 

[Lorelei]

I've "purchased" the stone and put a deposit down, but I think I can work with the jeweler to get a different stone. It was actually sent out to be set last night, but I'm in the process of recalling the stone now. I'm just floored by the GIA grading system. This stone seems well outside of the bounds of acceptability from what I have read on this forum, but to the layman XXX is XXX. I've looked at the GIA chart, and this table/PA/CA combo is the very last that qualifies as excellent. I'm doubly concerned because this is 2 C on the dot, which makes me think some stonecutter plugged it into a program to get max weight and still get graded excellent. I think I'd be more comfortable with something like 2.05, which would tell me that the cut was not compromised to hit the 2.0 mark.

Thanks for coming back and filling us in on the situation. In that case, I believe the right thing to do is to put the brakes on this deal as you are doing. For me, this stone has a very risky crown/pavilion angle combo which could show light leakage to the naked eye, sometimes leakage can result in the stone looking small for it's weight also, you want to * see* the 2 carats you have paid for where it matters - sparkling on its intended finger. That the stone weighs exactly 2 carats is something to consider, you are right that many diamonds are cut to hit these ' magic' weights, sometimes but not always at the detriment of cut quality, if you can find a stone that has a few additional points then definitely look but go as you are doing by each diamond's physical and visual merits, if you find a diamond weighing exactly 2 cts and everything else checks out, you're there. You are going to get this exactly right and you are asking all the right questions, you will end up with a stunning rock for your money. As John mentions, if this diamond has been crisply and finely tuned and proportioned, with perhaps a touch of tweaking done skilfully ( such as brillianteering), it might be a contender, but for me, it's a risky rock based on the info we have and personally, I would keep looking for now as cut quality obviously matters to you and that's a good thing.

As Ande says, when you find more contenders, come back with all the details and we will take a look for you.

 

[bachelor78]

Where should I be looking for more contenders? I don't want to cut out the jeweler as he has spent a significant amount of time engaging with me on this, but he is telling me that stones to the dimensions I'm looking for (I used the "safe" dimensions I found on another thread: Table 53-57, Depth 59-61.8, CA 34.3-34.8, PA 40.6-40.9 ) may be hard to come by and/or more expensive. What kind of resources does he have to find stones? Don't they have a large database of wholesale stones to consult?

I'm not sure I understand the problem, as I have found many contenders at a very competitive price point through the pricescope diamond search feature. That said, if possible I'd like to go through the jeweler as I'm not entirely comfortable with buying online and I would like to continue to work with him so long as the price is somewhat competitive.

 

[John P]

Where should I be looking for more contenders? I don't want to cut out the jeweler as he has spent a significant amount of time engaging with me on this, but he is telling me that stones to the dimensions I'm looking for (I used the "safe" dimensions I found on another thread: Table 53-57, Depth 59-61.8, CA 34.3-34.8, PA 40.6-40.9 ) may be hard to come by and/or more expensive. What kind of resources does he have to find stones? Don't they have a large database of wholesale stones to consult?

I'm not sure I understand the problem, as I have found many contenders at a very competitive price point through the pricescope diamond search feature. That said, if possible I'd like to go through the jeweler as I'm not entirely comfortable with buying online and I would like to continue to work with him so long as the price is somewhat competitive.

I suggest you candidly tell your jeweler all you have posted here; particularly that you could choose to go elsewhere but prefer to work with him. It's telling that he admits the diamonds with the fundamental parameters you posted could be more expensive. It's true. And it's because diamond traders recognize they stand at a higher level of cut-quality by comparison to "cheaper" EX offerings.

As it relates to price-competition, your pro's time and energy are worth something, as is the convenience and access of using a local store. So you may not see a "match" of pricing for lowball e-diamonds (especially when the low options are always low for disadvantageous reasons), but if you look at the general range he may be able to get within hailing distance.

 

[JulieN]

I used the "safe" dimensions I found on another thread: Table 53-57, Depth 59-61.8, CA 34.3-34.8, PA 40.6-40.9 ) may be hard to come by and/or more expensive

Very safe, and also too restrictive. Of course it will be much harder if you impose such restrictions.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I used the "safe" dimensions I found on another thread: Table 53-57, Depth 59-61.8, CA 34.3-34.8, PA 40.6-40.9 ) may be hard to come by and/or more expensive

Very safe, and also too restrictive. Of course it will be much harder if you impose such restrictions.

You can absolutely go to 34.0-35.0 on crown angle. Depth should be more like 60.0-62.3. Not sure where you got those numbers, but they are too restrictive. You can do a 34 crown angle with a 41.0 pavilion angle and be fine.

Give the jeweler a chance to do it. My local jeweler had limited suppliers and could not get me a stone with those parameters, and we ended up buying from a vendor we found on PS. I've bought several other diamonds online since then because some of the vendors supply FAR more information on the diamonds than any local jeweler would. I also just can't wrap my head around paying a couple thousand dollars (plus tax) over what I'd pay online, either.

 

[Roqsteady]

diamonds cut to those parameters are indeed harder to find and are likely more expensive because frankly - they're more likely to be well-cut, and well-cut diamonds are more costly to produce. Taken to the extreme, many of the "H&A" vendors here say that a precision H&A diamond takes 4 times as long to cut as a normal diamond, which has implications on the ROI/yield and thus the price they can charge. If you insist on going with this jeweler, there's limited feedback we can give you unless he supplies an idealscope/ASET image. Or if you can ask him to find you an AGS 000 it would be alot simpler.

 

[Lorelei]

Ditto John, Jules and DS. You do have wiggle room with the proportions certainly and DS posted a nice range of proportions that should get you well within the realms of top cut stones. Also nicely put DS, give your jeweller a chance to do it, see what he can come up with. If it turns out that on this occasion and he cannot come up with what you want, then there will be other chances in the future for him to get your custom, but if you can, give him the opportunity.

 

[bachelor78]

Thanks everyone, I got those numbers from a few other threads on these boards that addressed the issue. I'm definitely willing to expand my parameters. My concern with the original stone was that it seemed way outside the parameters of an excellent cut. Should I just stop worrying about the numbers and rely on HCA to figure it out?

 

[JulieN]

GIA EX or AGS 0 combined with HCA under 2.5, sometimes 3 is a good starting point. With GIA rounding the pavilion angle up to the nearest fifth, HCA under 2 will throw out too many that are still good.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

GIA EX or AGS 0 combined with HCA under 2.5, sometimes 3 is a good starting point. With GIA rounding the pavilion angle up to the nearest fifth, HCA under 2 will throw out too many that are still good.

I am fine with this, too (up to 2.5). Just post reports here as you get them.

 

[bachelor78]

Here is a diamond my jeweler found at 33k:

2.08 F Si1
56 table
61.9 depth
35.5 CA
40.6 PA
girdle medium to slightly thick 3.5%

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=2155876113&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

It scores 1.3 on HCA. There seem to be a lot more inclusions than the other poorly cut Si1 I originally looked at, but the cut numbers look good to my novice eye. 35.5 seems a bit high on the crown, but that gets compensated for by the lower PA of 40.6, right?

 

[John P]

Here is a diamond my jeweler found at 33k:

2.08 F Si1
56 table
61.9 depth
35.5 CA
40.6 PA
girdle medium to slightly thick 3.5%

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=2155876113&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

It scores 1.3 on HCA. There seem to be a lot more inclusions than the other poorly cut Si1 I originally looked at, but the cut numbers look good to my novice eye. 35.5 seems a bit high on the crown, but that gets compensated for by the lower PA of 40.6, right?

Indeed. Promising numbers. AGS0 light performance candidate, depending on specifics.

 

[Lorelei]

Here is a diamond my jeweler found at 33k:

2.08 F Si1
56 table
61.9 depth
35.5 CA
40.6 PA
girdle medium to slightly thick 3.5%

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=2155876113&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

It scores 1.3 on HCA. There seem to be a lot more inclusions than the other poorly cut Si1 I originally looked at, but the cut numbers look good to my novice eye. 35.5 seems a bit high on the crown, but that gets compensated for by the lower PA of 40.6, right?

This stone appears to be very promising, I would shortlist this one for sure providing it is eyeclean to your specifications. The crown and pavilion angle could absolutely be a great combo and yes, it is desirable to have a steeper crown with that particular pavilion angle on paper. A higher crown can in some cases emphasize fire or coloured optics if the lighting is right, if it were me, I would definitely be interested in learning more about this diamond!

 

[bachelor78]

Thanks. Is there a good way to check that without having it sent from across the country?

 

[John P]

Thanks. Is there a good way to check that without having it sent from across the country?

Eye-clean can be asked of the supplier. Be very specific; ie "Is it eye-clean face-up in normal lighting from 12 inches? How about from 8 inches?" If your jeweler has an ongoing relationship with the supplier he will know how reliable that aspect is.

In terms of cut-quality you can get the supplier's description. Your jeweler will need to ask about make beyond just triple ex. It's likely, to get this diamond, that he already requested "ideal," which is the denotation a lot of suppliers would use for this one. There's a remote chance the supplier will have an ideal-scope and can send an image, but those odds are fewer than 1 in 100. Don't beat anyone up if that doesn't happen. Your jeweler might simply inquire about whether it stands with the finest-make they see or not. If not, ask if it's close to being H&A - or optically precise - whichever term your pro is comfortable with. Some consider "H&A" marketing - but the patterns can be used to interpret the level of cut-consistency and 3D precision, which both impact performance.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Here is a diamond my jeweler found at 33k:

2.08 F Si1
56 table
61.9 depth
35.5 CA
40.6 PA
girdle medium to slightly thick 3.5%

http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=2155876113&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

It scores 1.3 on HCA. There seem to be a lot more inclusions than the other poorly cut Si1 I originally looked at, but the cut numbers look good to my novice eye. 35.5 seems a bit high on the crown, but that gets compensated for by the lower PA of 40.6, right?

This is a nice SI1 stone if eye clean. IMO, the best SI inclusions are the ones with tiny scattered clear crystal inclusions.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

That does look like it has potential.

I saw this one if you decide you want to compare two stones (or buy out of state if you are not in NY):

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/11976/

It is good when you can access at least an idealscope image. I realize some people like to shop locally, but I'd want the extra information on cut quality before I spent $33k, personally. That stone may be great, but it may not be to the cut quality (hearts and arrows) of one like I posted. Can you buy an idealscope if your jeweler doesn't have one?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Yup, You should compare your stone with the GOG stone DS posted above... also keep in mind that the GOG stone is a true H&A stone, plus it is eye clean..

 

[John P]

...I realize some people like to shop locally, but I'd want the extra information on cut quality before I spent $33k, personally...

I'm a big supporter of honest, hard-working local jewelers, but I must +1 the above.

 

[bachelor78]

He does have an ideal scope and I will take a close look, but if the stone is eye clean and really pops, I'm not inclined to spend 1k more for a perfect H&A stone at this point. Next time I will shop on the internet and use this resource from the beginning, but I am not a big fan of using a retailers service and knowledge and then deciding to go elsewhere for the final purchase. Maybe I'm being old school here, but I just would feel really guilty at this point. This guy has really hustled and has called me 10-15 times...I feel I owe him the business if he can meet my criteria. Also, the internet tax savings are not an issue for me.

 

[Lorelei]

He does have an ideal scope and I will take a close look, but if the stone is eye clean and really pops, I'm not inclined to spend 1k more for a perfect H&A stone at this point. Next time I will shop on the internet and use this resource from the beginning, but I am not a big fan of using a retailers service and knowledge and then deciding to go elsewhere for the final purchase. Maybe I'm being old school here, but I just would feel really guilty at this point. This guy has really hustled and has called me 10-15 times...I feel I owe him the business if he can meet my criteria. Also, the internet tax savings are not an issue for me.

Understood, but don't let guilt sway you or feel you owe anyone anything when it comes to your hard earned money for such an important purchase. But if he can give you what you want with the service you expect and the price is right, then of course that's fair enough. We just want you to be aware of the various options and points to consider before you pull the trigger so you can make an informed choice.

PS - that's a beauty DS found...!

 

[luvdajules]

Hi OP, sounds like your local jeweler found you a nice stone and you'll have opportunity to continue to vet that out. I agree, and most would here, to allow your jeweler to help you and complete the purchase for good quality and CS. However, if I were in your shoes, especially at this price point, I'd want to talk to your local jeweler about their policies regarding viewing period (return policy), lifetime upgrade or trade in, buy back, regular maintenance just so you are aware and maybe can negotiate anything that is important to you that other vendors offer and put it in writing if it's different than their standard practice. This way, your interests are also covered in the long run.