2.69ct AGS stone got certified by GIA: G->H, VVS2->VVS1

[Texas Leaguer]

Can we get a link to this stone on the JA website? I can't find the diamond being discussed.

Usually, JA keeps the full webpage up, for a long time, even after the diamond is sold.

There are some LP images and other information in the OP's original thread here:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/[/URL]

 

[bqnbqn]

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If you buy a XXX GIA G VVS2 will you send it to AGS?...
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DancingFire, if I had purchased a XXX G VVS2 GIA, I would not go to AGS as the stone is exactly what I am looking for. Unfortunately, JA didn't have such a stone graded by GIA at the time. I was mainly concerned about the color so I got their gemologist's opinion. If this is a low G/high H and I'm told it is such, I would have been mentally prepared to accept a downgrade from GIA as it could go either way. So, either this is really a solid G as I was told and GIA graded incorrectly or it is indeed a low G/high H and can go either way which unfortunately went H. If I were a seller holding a stone in the lower range of a color, I guess one way to get the max selling price for it is to get it certified by whichever reputable agency that can provide a higher grade. I'm not saying that is the case here. I did offer to pay for GIA certification before the purchase but I guess it was deemed impractical by JA. If this is indeed a solid G stone, I'm not blaming anyone except GIA

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No need to burn either. They are both valid reports. If the stone is ever put up for resale, one report may be preferred by the prospective buyer than the other. A customer wanting the highest pedigree for cut quality will prefer the AGS report.
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DancingFire, if I were a buyer, I would use whichever report yields the lower price knowing this is a well-cut stone (in this case, the GIA cert), wouldn't you?

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If you had come into a diamond dealers/jeweller/online and seen this 2.69 H VVS1 when you were going to buy would it have been
a consideration for you? Do you still feel the same way or has your experience changed things? Only you can answer what is right for you at this time unless you want to take other peoples opinions or diamond sellers opinions on as your own. And not change your mind or dwell on it again.
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Pyramid, I had been specifically narrowing my search to G VVS2 stones. If I had been searching for an H VVS1 and seen it, then yes, I would have considered it, at the price H VVS1 stones go for at the time. In short, if I had set out to look for an H-color stone, then yes, this is beautiful, well-cut H-color stone and I would have been very happy to pay whatever the market price it commands at the time.

 

[pyramid]

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If you buy a XXX GIA G VVS2 will you send it to AGS?...
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DancingFire, if I had purchased a XXX G VVS2 GIA, I would not go to AGS as the stone is exactly what I am looking for.

Remember there are the 4 C's though not just color. A GIA XXX could be a lower cut grade. I found Paul Slegers post on this link to be informative.

https://www.pricescope.com/forum/rockytalky/gia-vs-ags-cut-grading-t192169-30.html#p3505441


I remember it being said before the Cut Study was done that the GIA steep deep was a way to get more money out of the rough as more was being cut off to polish a super ideal cut diamond of the time with quoted crown of 34.5 degrees and pavillion angle of 40.75 degrees.

If I wanted a good diamond I would want the GIA maybe too but then I would definitely need the AGS in order to clarify cut. Good Old Gold used to put up both to let people know what cut grade a GIA diamond would get, but now that the new cut grade is done by computer programme belonging to AGS that is probably not possible. Sometimes people buying GIA wanted to know what the AGS grade would be.

Cut is king as they say.

 

[Dancing Fire]

bqn...on the bright side...An AGS stone of the same 4c will fetch a few % more than a GIA stone.

 

[ruby59]

I was reading through your other thread where you mentioned that you brought it to a trusted 3rd party GIA appraiser to look at it. According to your post, he also felt it was a sold "G". So you cannot blame JA for coming to the same conclusion.

IMO, sending it off to different GIA's is not going to change the fact that your diamond is a borderline VVS1/VVS2 G/H. And even if you got the G designation, if it was sent back a third time, it could go back to H. Either you love it for what it is or return it and keep looking.

 

[pyramid]

But if he got the certificate with a GIA G on it, it would be worth a lot more money especially at 2.69 carats. He quoted it
would be 8-10% higher in value. In links above a GIA G XXX VVS1 2.50 carat was around 60-70 thousand dollars.

 

[ruby59]

He bought an AGS G. Not a GIA G. This might explain why he got such a good price. A GIA G might command a higher value, but he would have to pay more to get it. He did not lose 8 - 10%. He got what he paid for, imo.

 

[pyramid]

But if it is worn for a while and then for some reason sold, when it is sent back to GIA it could be downgraded back to to H. So then the next person would feel it was misrepresented.

He bought an AGS G. Not a GIA G. This might explain why he got such a good price. A GIA G might command a higher price, but he would have to pay more to get it. He did not lose 8 - 10%. He got what he paid for, imo.

I agree with you.

[This is just a way though (not at the original poster) to maximise and get a better diamond without spending more money which the internet is really about when buying and comparing prices. People do it subconsciously I think, not knowing they are looking for more than they paid because they paid out a lot. I think some don't realise what the diamond they think they should have got costs.

I feel this is a big subject which should be explored more. Is it impossible to have accurate reports instead of being told it is not an exact science. Know it would be a lot of money thrown away so to speak but if diamonds are really that prestige then should borderline stones not have a separate category where they are discounted. A bit like the SI3 clarity. They would cost less than a G but more than an H, just as the clarity grade works. There again GIA does not recognise that clarity grade.
It would cost less than a G but more than an H, just as the clarity grade works. There again GIA does not recognise that clarity grade.

I feel people also buy lower color diamonds to get more size so it looks like they have a large diamond but they are fooling themselves as it is not worth what a large diamond of the type valued in society or by movie actors are worth as theirs are high color and clarity and carat and cut. It is like pretending to have more than you do thinking people will think it is a large diamond but those who don't know it is not don't really care probably as they are not into diamonds or signs of status. Likewise wanting high color and clarity is a bit like trying to keep up with high class and show you have the best even if the diamond is smaller and people in general don't know it is high color but the owner is smug about it knowing they have the best. That is why people say 'oh it is a D color or it is a 3 carat' We are funny us humans. However is it us who just like bling from inside us or is it a marketing thing or a LARGE SCALE scam on us which leads us to believe we have what a movie star has when we don't at all or do we just want a little bit of it, not in the case of the 5 carat stones.]

I even wondered to myself today, 'is this AGS/GIA thing a bit like EGL then - what is the difference?' Although I realised that as vendors say it is normal to maybe be off one grade on color or clarity. Probably not normal to be off 3 or 4 grades as we are told EGL is. Still if the grade can be off 1 grade is it reliable enough when so much money is at stake, are house surveys off or other forms of 'large investments' - what about cars are they sometimes off by thousands of dollars. Can you buy a car for say $50,000 dollars and then find out through paper work that it is only valued at that although the paper work you bought it with was for a car valued at $65000. If that happened would you not feel let down. Then you have the contract so you paid $50.000 for a car of same price but were led to believe it was worth more due to the stats of the car. Sounds a bit like inflated insurance appraisals doesn't it!? If it is just borderline stones then maybe can't be helped but does it happen with ALL stones whether borderline or not as original poster was told his stone was a solid G?


I can see it from the original posters point of view too and this has happened before with Harriet 's diamond a few years ago.

Think this is getting a bit heavy, am I just being negative again like I was when I wrote before about color and about pricescopers who help others out.

 

[ruby59]

To use your car example, if someone sold me a car for $50,000 then imo it is worth at most $50,000. No one is going to give you a $15,000 gift.

Same with diamonds. How many times do you read on here that you get what you pay for and there are no bargains for diamonds.

His own trusted gemologist felt it was a solid G. AGS graded it a G. So both of them agreed with JA. Now maybe the head gemologist at GIA was having a bad day and did not give it the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the next one at another branch will have a good day and give it a G. But it does not change the color of the diamond. A piece of paper is not going to make it look any different. You either love it or you don't.

And until we can plug the diamond into a computer, grading will be subjective from day to day, person to person on the really close ones.

Besides, JA is willing to take it back. So the OP is not out any money.

And as another poster said, if this is the worst problem that happens in their marriage, then they are truely blessed.

 

[MissGotRocks]

I don't think it's true that if it had a GIA cert it would be worth 8-10% more. There might be that much difference in color grades but not necessarily because of the paper. The clarity was also upgraded by GIA so maybe it's a wash.

 

[SirGuy]

This is quite an interesting discussion. I know it's tempting and easy to make remarks about whether a stone is eye clean or not, or whether it "faces up" white regardless of its color grade.

I think what would be part of the issue for many hypothetically in the same situation is that a lot of stock is put in a grading report (and rightfully so).

I think sometimes we forget that the stone itself is unchanged. A report is a professional observation and evaluation of its characteristics in a controlled setting. A drift across a color or clarity grade is accepted in the community, with good reason. As much as we'd like it to be an exact science sometimes, it really isn't.

I could go to Thomas Keller's The French Laundry (a Michelin three star restaurant) and order the duck two nights in a row, and get ever-so-slightly different meals. The seasoning might be just barely different on either night; it might have been cooked just a few seconds longer one time. But it's still the same restaurant and the same meal. Is this a good analogy? No, because the meals are different.

Let's say now that two food critics split a plate of the same meal on the same night, and each wrote their own independent review. One says it was over seasoned, and one says it was overcooked.

Who's right? They both are. It was the same dish. Nothing changed except their perception of it. The critic who didn't like it might say he didn't get his money's worth. But the other guy says he loved it and was underpriced for how delicious it was.

You got a few opinions on the stone, and all are trustworthy on their own. You got exactly what you paid for. A grading report isn't what you buy. You buy the product it represents.

You don't wear the report. You wear the stone.

 

[pyramid]

GIA invented the diamond grades though it is their baby, the D to Z and the Fl to I3, so all other labs are really just
creating a report on GIA grades so should they not be the same or else they are incorrect in a way.

In a less expensive diamond bad enough but when a diamond costs what the OP will have to pay, should the grades not
be watertight. Otherwise why have a diamond report and not just an appraiser. Remember though it is not a Certificate and
as has been said here GIA does not certificate or guarantee anything or anyone even their own graduate gemologists. That probably tells us that it is just an opinion from GIA and not the fool proof exact description for the diamond.

Pity they can't make it an exact science though ...someday with computers it should be. Or would that lose them some money or the dealers some money.

All other things we purchase are no doubt skipping a few things in favour of the manufacturers. Look at food, less in packet for money money than when an item is first promoted.

I like the restaurant thing that is true too. Everything can be analysed from so many different angles.

The person who buys the diamond needs to be happy with their choice or buy another. I do know a GIA G would cost more than a GIA H though so which did he pay for as long as it is fair priced does it matter what the grade is if the owner knows what it is from what he paid. You don't get nothing for free really, costs are hidden somewhere.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The food analogy doesn't work. If they decide to sell this stone in a few years and the buyer wants a GIA report, he does stand to lose money unless he is paying H color pricing for the stone (and I don't know what he paid). He said pricing for the same size H VVS1 was 8-10% lower than for G VVS2. Color has a much greater effect on pricing over one clarity grade within VVS.

Someone was just mentioned in another thread and the same thing happened to her. She recently went to some diamond dealers to get pricing on the stone to sell it and they ALL wanted GIA grading. As expected from initial appraisals after purchase, the stone did come back from GIA a color grade lower. That is thousands of dollars on a larger diamond.

As long as the stone is never sold, it doesn't really matter. But no one ever knows that for sure. I just think he won't have an easy time finding a stone this size in G+ VVS so he may need to go down in size and up in color if he really wants to please the future in-laws (which is a whole other issue. I hope they won't be living near them!).

I would think that they'd be very close to having reliable technology for grading color. Even though a colorimeter is not considered reliable enough, the one that GOG has certainly has proven to be very accurate in all the cases that I have experienced. So it probably won't be long but some people will lose jobs and that always hurts.

 

[pyramid]

As it is an opinion maybe GIA are wrong but seems that it is always that AGS are one lower color and one higher clarity than GIA so maybe they need to adjust something or all go to GIA for training.

BUT THEN AGAIN HOW CAN GIA BE WRONG IN THEIR OWN GRADING SYSTEM - THEY CAN'T BE.

If you bought a Ferarri and Ferrari said it was so and so would you get it graded by another manufacturer. Maybe GIA's grades should remain GIA's grades for their branded report. Are all other labs just all feel good reports using the GIA terminology. AGS now have their own Cut Grade but still they have not risen to the status GIA has carved out for themselves over the years. F

Did GIA invent the grading system or did it exist at all in that format of D to Z, Flawless to I3 before. I know in europe they use P1 to P3 for I1 to I3, which came first? However regardless GIA is seen as the leading lab by many the world over.

 

[pyramid]

cheeky question but. Do all vendors who send their ideal cut diamonds to AGS for grading, buy diamonds only with what is
in their opinion borderline color grades in order to get a higher grade from AGS? I know if this is the case we would never find it out.

 

[denverappraiser]

cheeky question but. Do all vendors who send their ideal cut diamonds to AGS for grading, buy diamonds only with what is
in their opinion borderline color grades in order to get a higher grade from AGS? I know if this is the case we would never find it out.

ALL is a very broad category. Dealers in general are interested in documenting things in a way that makes them sell for the most possible and as quickly as possible. They don’t all agree on what this but the result is some go to GIA, some go to AGS, some go to HRD, some go to EGL, some get sold without paperwork at all. It’s a strategic decision. It is flatly incorrect that AGS graded color can be counted on to come out with a lower score than GIA color. It MIGHT. Then again, it might go the other way too. You'll never see that report.
It’s also quite common to send it to several labs and then sell it using the one with the best paper. That may be about color, it may be about clarity, it may be about cutting. Occasionally there are even other issues. Very Strong fluorescence is a tough thing to sell and if you can get a different lab to call it strong or even medium, that’s worth a lot. The borderline between SI2 and I1 is a big deal. Just look at the prices. A borderline stone that gets called I1 is a prime target to send elsewhere, no matter where you sent it. This happens even between labs run by the same company. GIA has 7 of them for example. If you don’t get what you want in India, try California, Botswana or somewhere else. Sometimes they change. Lab fees are cheap and diamonds aren't perishable so really all you're wasting is time. If AGS gives a stone a worse grade than GIA without some other offsetting problem, sell it with GIA papers. Easy peasy. It’ll bring more money and pretty much any 000 is going to get xxx. The customer will never see that AGS report. The uptick from L to K (for example) improves both speed and prices considerably. That’s worth more than either the AGS cut premium or the GIA brand premium no matter which lab you land on.

 

[pyramid]

Great post denverappraiser and from an Independent Appraiser too so this is the kind of information that shows a consumer what they can rely on as being the truth. You have to trust your vendor but you have to build up that trust first and this is the type of post which consumers can learn from. It points out why a vendor operates the way he does.


I think Pricescope should elevate denverappraiser up to Super Ideal Rock status. He knows more than most of us.

 

[Tourmaline]

So, OP, have you decided what to do with the stone?

 

[CanuckAB]

Due to the time the OP has already invested into this stone as well as the apparent current lack of stones that would exceed it's specs, perhaps requesting a recheck by GIA is the next best step. It sounds like the OP really liked the stone before it received the colour downgrade from GIA. As the biggest problem seems to be that the future in-laws need to approve of the stone due to cultural reasons, is it possible to get their opinion on the situation? Perhaps the importance of VVS1 clarity superceeds the H colour? Sorry if this is a stupid question as I'm not familiar with Asian customs at all.

 

[WinkHPD]

As it is an opinion maybe GIA are wrong but seems that it is always that AGS are one lower color and one higher clarity than GIA so maybe they need to adjust something or all go to GIA for training.

BUT THEN AGAIN HOW CAN GIA BE WRONG IN THEIR OWN GRADING SYSTEM - THEY CAN'T BE.

If you bought a Ferarri and Ferrari said it was so and so would you get it graded by another manufacturer. Maybe GIA's grades should remain GIA's grades for their branded report. Are all other labs just all feel good reports using the GIA terminology. AGS now have their own Cut Grade but still they have not risen to the status GIA has carved out for themselves over the years. F

Did GIA invent the grading system or did it exist at all in that format of D to Z, Flawless to I3 before. I know in europe they use P1 to P3 for I1 to I3, which came first? However regardless GIA is seen as the leading lab by many the world over.

Yes, they can, and frequently are, it is just not often talked about.

Many years ago, pre 1990, I was meeting with a client in my office. I had a 2ct plus diamond for him that was supposed to be, by the opinion of my vendor, a J-VS1. I happened to be in near complete accord with my vendor on this diamond. On the color as it was clearly lower than my H-I split grade color master diamond, and just slightly higher than my J-K color master diamond. On the clarity I thought the VS1 a bit harsh but reasonable as I thought the diamond was on the upper side of the VVS2-VS1 grading border.

My client was one of the early adopters of wanting a diamond report, more than 90% of my in house clients never requested them, and in fact when I last moved my office I had a drawer with twenty or thirty reports that were never taken with the diamond when it was sold. This of course was before I started selling on the Internet.

I made a deal with the client that I would guarantee the diamond to be a J-VS1 or better and that if it was so he would pay for the costs of the getting of the GIA report. When notified of the results, G-VVS2 and asked if I wanted a recheck I told them it was an insane grade and no way could it be a G. I was offered the choice of paying for a recheck or accepting the report. I did not want to risk the cost of a recheck if they decided it was still a G (Maybe an H, (I am not positive, but I am pretty sure it was a G.) so I let them send the report and I called my client. He paid me the costs of getting the report and bought the diamond. On his receipt, so that I can never be accused of misrepresentation, I put down that the diamond was graded a J by me and that I thought that GIA was in error.

I told my supplier and he was flabbergasted. He told me that he had compared it to many papered diamonds in his inventory and it was clearly a J. I checked it against some one carats that I had that were G and H colors and it was clearly lower in color than either of them.

GIA was CLEARLY wrong about that diamond. I do not know why it was graded so leniently, and I hope I am long out of this world when this man's heirs go to get the diamond repapered and discover that their daddy bought a diamond with a paper on it that says G when it is actually now papered to be a J. Of course, to know where to find it they will have to find the receipt, and the receipt clearly says I do not agree with the grade.

Every dealer who has sold a few hundred or more diamonds can tell you stories about "lucky" certs, or conversely, unlucky certs.

If this was my diamond, once I got it back from my unhappy client, I would have it repaperd to get the correct paper and then happily sell it as it most likely is.

I am sorry that our OP has had to go through this, and I do not think getting the correct paper is now her responsibility. I do suspect that the vendor involved is going to repaper it though, since they all think that GIA is out to lunch on this diamond.

I just want to emphatically say that they can and do make mistakes. Way too many of them, and especially now that they can not quickly enough hire and train new graders. The reliability of a GIA report is at one of its lowest points ever with all of the new labs and new graders. It does NOT bode well for our industry that the biggest lab is not currently the best lab.

Wink

P.S. This is my highly biased opinion of course since I am an AGS advocate. I just want this to be clear and up front so that no one things I am a totally neutral observer.

P.P.S. Yes, I believe that GIA did develop the grading system from D-Z as there was a plethora of terms that then meant what ever the seller wanted them to mean. A, AAA, River, Wesselton, etc, etc. That is why the Alphabet starts at D for GIA, to get away from the A, AA, AAA, AAAA, AAAAA garbage that had sprouted over the years.

 

[WinkHPD]

Great post denverappraiser and from an Independent Appraiser too so this is the kind of information that shows a consumer what they can rely on as being the truth. You have to trust your vendor but you have to build up that trust first and this is the type of post which consumers can learn from. It points out why a vendor operates the way he does.


I think Pricescope should elevate denverappraiser up to Super Ideal Rock status. He knows more than most of us.

LOL

Second that! He certainly says it better than I do.

Wink

 

[pyramid]

Wink

Both of you say it great. Denverappraiser is an independent though but having two vendors in this thread (you being one of them) say that GIA is not really correct these days as much due to the wait in grading diamonds, is something I would also find useful if I was having to decide about this diamond the way the Original Poster is. Looking at what he paid for the diamond from previous mention and what a GIA G VVS1 costs online from the diamond search I think he did get what he paid for. If the diamond he wants is not available at the moment it may be best to keep this one. When another G VVS2 comes onto the market the price may have increased as it will take a while to find one that size with those stats.

I think as was mentioned, he should ask for a recheck from GIA.

 

[pyramid]

Ofcourse, I don't really understand enough about the cultural thing regarding her parents needing to know the statistics of the diamond.

 

[Lorelei]

Send it back. You’re clearly well into the whole ‘mind clean’ issue here and it’s going to bug you, and possibly the inlaws, forever. I’m confident that JA can fix you up with a GIA graded stone that both you and they will adore, and that will have the right pedigree.

I'm with Neil on this one, what a shame but I also think it's a mind clean issue and add the inlaws to that, it might be best to start again, so sorry this happened...