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2.59 carat Emerald cut stats... opinions please!

S

suzdaug

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2015
Messages
51
Considering a 2.59 carat emerald cut with these stats. I am unfamiliar with proper emerald ratios and would really value your opinions based on the stats alone. EGL tends to be lax on color and clarity, right? Would this really be an I1 with GIA you think?

Just in case it doesn't zoom enough:
2.59 ct
9.20 x 6.87 x 4.68mm
depth 68.1%
Table 72%
crown 9.3%
pavilion 55.6%
Girdle Slightly thick polished
culet: none
polish: very good
Symmetry: very good
Clarity SI2
Color Grade: M
Fluorescence: Faint

__50.jpg
 
It's an EGL stone. It's an automatic no.

We can't tell you anything else about it. Numbers tell you nothing about emeralds. Nothing in the lab report can tell you if it is worth a second look, in terms of faceting and performance. Except one thing: it wasn't good enough to send to GIA.

Please read these links. All of them.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/been-wondering-when-this-would-happen-lawsuit-over-grading.204318/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/been-wondering-when-this-would-happen-lawsuit-over-grading.204318/[/URL]
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/been-wondering-when-this-would-happen-lawsuit-over-grading.204318/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/been-wondering-when-this-would-happen-lawsuit-over-grading.204318/[/URL]


When you find a nice stone, and if you want our opinion you need to provide us with high quality macro pictures. A video if possible. And and ASET image if available.

Then we can help you.
 
Wow! Thanks for the links. There are so many vendors that sell EGL stones, how do you navigate that? Ask them to send to GIA for verification? I have seen a few that I am interested in but they are EGL and the vendor assured me they were fine and they never had complaints from their customers. Two of those places are well known around pricescope and I have enjoyed corresponding with them but am concerned by their acceptance of EGL.

Can you help me figure out how to proceed because they have lots of interesting stones. Is it okay to have them sec to GIA on my dime?

Thanks!
 
1. Vendors that tell you EGL is fine and they've had no complaints are probably lying. Unfortunately the jewelry industry is not very well regulated and many jewelers are unscrupulous. When you say "well known" on PS... PS is quirky. There are vendors we recommend on the boards. And then there are vendors that advertise with PS. Just because a vendor advertises with PS doesn't mean we recommend them.
This is what happens much of the time with unscrupulous jewelers: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/need-advice-diamond-dealer-wont-honor-return-policy.209574/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/need-advice-diamond-dealer-wont-honor-return-policy.209574/[/URL] (please read).

2. You stick to stores that carry GIA stones only or just tell the vendor that you will only consider GIA stones. IF they object just be firm. It's very easy. All you do is say: "No I only want GIA graded stones" (AGS is also find but no one sends EC's to AGS so for your purposes it's irrelevant).

I can help you find some nice stones if you want.
You may need to re-adjust your expectations for what you will get in an accurately graded quality stone.
 
I would love your help, May I message you?
 
There is no IM messaging. I'll help you right here just like we do everyone else.

What is your budget and what do you think you want for it?
 
Just confirming everything Gypsy said. In addition, you don't want to look at SI2 stones even in GIA for emerald cuts. And a 72% table is massive. So even if that stone was GIA, it wouldn't have been worth pursuing, in my opinion. You start with GIA only, photos first, then narrow them down further with ASET images.
 
diamondseeker2006|1422849159|3825789 said:
Just confirming everything Gypsy said. In addition, you don't want to look at SI2 stones even in GIA for emerald cuts. And a 72% table is massive. So even if that stone was GIA, it wouldn't have been worth pursuing, in my opinion. You start with GIA only, photos first, then narrow them down further with ASET images.
Click to expand...


exactly. SI1's 99% of the time with emerald cuts are not going to be eyeclean.
You pretty much are stuck with VS2 or better with Emerald cuts.

And that is a large table, which means the crown may be quite low, which means a glassy stone without any fire.

That said... pictures and videos are the best way to chose emerald cuts.

What is your budget?
 
What a horribly sad story, yikes! Thank you for sharing that.

So do you not recommend Good Old Gold or Old World Diamonds? I see them mentioned a lot. I almost went through with a purchase from GOG (turns out the stone was sourced from OWD) but when I asked for them to send the stone out to be certed by GIA on my dime so that I would have something legit to submit to my insurance company this was their response:

"Our appraisal should be sufficient enough for your insurance company as we have sold numerous EGL diamonds in the past and have not heard any complaints from other customers that they needed it to be graded by a different lab. If GIA did gradeed it, the stats might be the slightest bit lower as GIA has a slightly stricter grading system. The weight will be the same, but the (color, clarity, ect..) might be the slightest bit different. This doesn't devalue the diamond however because being an EGL diamond, you are getting it for less in cost than if it were to be graded by GIA. Because our EGL diamonds sell for less, the price basically equals out for the most part regardless of who graded it."

It seemed super fishy to me so I passed. I assumed since Erica and Grace both send their stones to AGS and GIA prior to selling them that it was not uncommon for people to request a stone be vetted by GIA prior to purchase to make sure they are not getting screwed. After the deal with GOG went weird, I did some research around here and reached out to Erica and Grace. I am hoping they can help me find what I want. So far no luck so I would love help from you too.

My goal is a true antique cut stone (I hadn't considered EC but saw one and thought it was so lovely). This is an upgrade for my engagement ring. I am open to different shapes like OEC, cushion/old mine but particularly love transitional cuts. My budget is $7000ish. I would like something 7.5mm or more and am open to warm colors. In fact I prefer them.
 
Ahhhh, Good Old Gold is 100% trustworthy. Most of Old World Diamonds stones are EGL. If GOG was sourcing me an antique stone, I would not have the need to send it to GIA because they can tell me pretty close to what GIA would say as compared with EGL. GIA is slow so it may have been that if GOG called in the stone, there wouldn't have been time for it to be sent to GIA and then be returned to OWD if you decided you didn't want it. But regardless, GOG is the best vendor to evaluate cut on an old stone as far as I am concerned. They have been right on the money at evaluating color for me, too, regarding GIA and AGS grades more than once.

I would not try to evaluate an old cut by the grading report. You have to have images and video of the stone first and foremost. I also like GOG's ASET, etc to have an idea of light return, although you won't expect the same light return on an antique stone as you would on a precision cut modern cut stone.

Love Affair Diamonds and Jewels by Grace are also good sources for old cuts. They may send all their in-house stones to GIA, but I don't think they do ASETs. But some people don't care about that with antique stones. I like all the information, personally.
 
The GOG/OWD stone had very good light return but it was a spread cut and very shallow. It also had dark spots that bothered me so that was just the icing on the cake for masking me uncomfortable. I guess it bothered me that he made it sound like EGL wasn't a big deal after all of the threads I have been linked to that make it sound like it is a problem, esp for resale?

There are a few stones on Grace's site that really interest me but, of course, those happen to be the ones that are uncerted or EGL...

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/2-01-to-3-00/2-04ct-old-europen-cut-diamond#.VM8HiWTF9NE

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/2-01-to-3-00/2-25ct-old-european-cut-diamond-uncerted-est-to-be-n-o-vs#.VM8HVGTF9NE

and these are some certified ones that I have my eye on - a little out of budget but hey...:

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/2-01-to-3-00/2-37ct-old-european-cut-diamond-gia-m-si2#.VM8OHmTF9NE

http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/loose-diamonds/2-01-to-3-00/2-09ct-transitional-cut-diamond-ags-n-vs1#.VM8M_GTF9NE
 
So for the Old World Diamonds could you request to have the stone sent to GIA at my expense or will they not take an EGL stone? The fact that GOG uses them as a source makes me think that OWD is a good vendor too but I am surprised that they aren't selling GIA stuff....
 
Emerald cuts and Old cuts are very different.

Although most Old Cut vendors are converting their stock over to GIA, many old cuts are EGL still. That's allowable. Although I would only buy with an independent appraisal -- EVEN from GOG-- of an EGL stone. AND I would only buy EGL USA.

Emerald cuts. No, not even from GOG would I buy an EGL graded EC. Nope. Not going to do it.

GOG has some funky stones in their stock. They are a full service brick and mortar store. They carry "traditional" rounds and funky fancies, because people buy them and even request them. So not everything GOG carries is PS worthy. And they know that. That doesn't mean that they will put their lifetime guarantee behind it OR recommend it, given the choice, but they will sell it.

And they have great customer service so if a customer comes in and asks for, frankly a crappy stone, or has unreasonable size expectations for their budget (2 carats for 8k for example) something's got to give. And that means they might turn to ultimately inferior stones in order to make the customer happy. But that's customer service driven.

That's doesn't mean the stone is the best quality for the money. Even at GOG.
 
So how do you go about getting an independent appraisal while purchasing? Have them send it out at your expense? Buy and take it elsewhere, return if it doesnt live up? And who do you recommend do that appraisal? A GIA jeweler?

I will likely buy sonething from Erica or Grace to be safe.
 
Two ways:
1) You can ask if the vendor will send it to an independent appraiser before you purchase. You MUST be the one paying though, not them. That is important.
2) You take it to an independent appraiser within the return policy period yourself. If you have a no questions asked full return policy then this is not a problem.


Appraisers I would use:
Neil Beaty
Jeff Averbook
David Atlas
Patrick Davis

:wavey:
 
May I quickly threadjack and ask what is going on with that middle round stone in the GOG video?! I honestly can't tell what's causing it to look so white but have no contrast.

Sorry sorry sorry...
 
Gypsy|1422848318|3825780 said:
1. Vendors that tell you EGL is fine and they've had no complaints are probably lying. Unfortunately the jewelry industry is not very well regulated and many jewelers are unscrupulous. When you say "well known" on PS... PS is quirky. There are vendors we recommend on the boards. And then there are vendors that advertise with PS. Just because a vendor advertises with PS doesn't mean we recommend them.
This is what happens much of the time with unscrupulous jewelers: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/need-advice-diamond-dealer-wont-honor-return-policy.209574/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/need-advice-diamond-dealer-wont-honor-return-policy.209574/[/URL] (please read).
Click to expand...
I think it does a great disservice to both the PS administrators & the sponsoring vendors (the only vendors whose stones are listed in the vast PS database & whose ads appear here) to suggest that any of the sponsoring vendors are "unscrupulous", a serous characterization that should not be tossed off lightly.The sponsoring vendors are vetted & I know of a sponsoring vendor whom it appeared was "bounced" (without fanfare by the site administrators) after grave complaints were made re the business practices.

That not all of the sponsoring vendors offer the visual aids/tools on their sites that some others do does not mean they are "unscrupulous." That a sponsoring vendor includes stones in its inventory that don't live up to seasoned PSer standards does not make the vendor "unscrupulous."

That a vendor isn't often recommended by the PSers who are serving, at any particular point in time, as the most active advisors on the board to those making inquiry does not mean the vendor is "unscrupulous." Rather, the recommendations are typically driven by
* (A) a desire to steer people to those vendors who routinely post, e.g., videos & ASETS on their site. This is understandable because the vast majority of inquirers want to maximize the odds of getting a winning stone right off the bat from the 'net (in the colored stones world, many of us expect to return one or more stones before getting a keeper), but again the absence of those tools should not be a reason a vendor is branded as "unscrupulous."
AND
* (B) the frequent advisors' familiarity. Two examples from my own relatively short stint as a poster here.
1. Early on, I recommended a diamond vendor (a sponsor BTW) because my late father-in-law, who was in the trade here in NYC & passionate about diamonds, thought well of the vendor; my suggestion was met with pushback simply because the vendor wasn't one of the usually recommended vendors -- not because anyone had anything meaningful to say. So I now view with some wry amusement that diamonds from this same vendor are, of late, showing up in suggestions from frequent advisors.

2. I recommended another PS sponsor because I've seen some of his mountings, thought his prices were very fair for the fine quality of craftsmanship, and had done a site search before posting to see if any PSers had had a bad experience with him. "Never heard of him" was the dismissive reaction from a frequent poster. Yet, I knew from my preceding site search that poster had oohed over a ring from him, but obviously didn't recall that.

Bottom line: that "we" don't recommend a PS sponsor is NOT an omen that the sponsoring vendor should be avoided owing to a lack of business ethics.
 
Gypsy|1422865070|3825858 said:
* * * Appraisers I would use:
Neil Beaty
Jeff Averbook
David Atlas
Patrick Davis
Click to expand...
I'd certainly add David Wolf in NYC to the list. He's the independent appraiser who figures in the thread initiated by the recent poster who had such a wrangle with the Diamond District guy who refused to honor his own return policy, is on the list of Idependent Appraisers found under the Resourced tab here & my father's law firm was very pleased with Mr. Wolf's services on an estate matter.
http://www.justappraisers.com
 
Just to say this one more time...with modern cuts there is zero reason to look at anything but GIA or AGS graded stones because they are plentiful and the reports are reliable. We didn't know at the beginning of the thread that we were looking at antique stones so my advice would have been different at the outset.

But in the case of antique stones, we have members here who have bought fabulous OEC's without a grading report AT ALL. Many others have bought antique stones graded by EGL. Very few antique stones have GIA reports. GIA will almost always show low cut grades on those. All you are technically doing is getting an accurate color and clarity grade. In my personal experience, GOG does an excellent job at this (and I feel sure would show the color on white background next to a GIA graded stone for you), but certainly there is nothing wrong with sending to an independent appraiser to just get a color and clarity grade. I wouldn't bother asking them about cut (or rather paying for it) because GOG already provides more than some appraisers on this. This is the advantage of dealing with GOG on OWD stones. I would use a NYC appraiser for these stones located in or near NYC.

Bottom line, though, with antique stones nothing is a substitute for seeing the stone in person as every one is very unique.
 
MollyMalone|1422889315|3825965 said:
Gypsy|1422865070|3825858 said:
* * * Appraisers I would use:
Neil Beaty
Jeff Averbook
David Atlas
Patrick Davis
Click to expand...
I'd certainly add David Wolf in NYC to the list. He's the independent appraiser who figures in the thread initiated by the recent poster who had such a wrangle with the Diamond District guy who refused to honor his own return policy, is on the list of Idependent Appraisers found under the Resourced tab here & my father's law firm was very pleased with Mr. Wolf's services on an estate matter.
http://www.justappraisers.com
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the tips. Moving forward I will have stones independently appraised. I really enjoyed working with Good Old Gold and Old World Diamonds so it's nice to know that I can have something appraised on my dime if it isn't in an inspection period from a different supplier. Erica and Grace are so easy to work with and it's nice that they very their stones first.
 
diamondseeker2006|1422897030|3826043 said:
Just to say this one more time...with modern cuts there is zero reason to look at anything but GIA or AGS graded stones because they are plentiful and the reports are reliable. We didn't know at the beginning of the thread that we were looking at antique stones so my advice would have been different at the outset.

But in the case of antique stones, we have members here who have bought fabulous OEC's without a grading report AT ALL. Many others have bought antique stones graded by EGL. Very few antique stones have GIA reports. GIA will almost always show low cut grades on those. All you are technically doing is getting an accurate color and clarity grade. In my personal experience, GOG does an excellent job at this (and I feel sure would show the color on white background next to a GIA graded stone for you), but certainly there is nothing wrong with sending to an independent appraiser to just get a color and clarity grade. I wouldn't bother asking them about cut (or rather paying for it) because GOG already provides more than some appraisers on this. This is the advantage of dealing with GOG on OWD stones. I would use a NYC appraiser for these stones located in or near NYC.

Bottom line, though, with antique stones nothing is a substitute for seeing the stone in person as every one is very unique.
Click to expand...


Where are they getting these fabulous uncerted OEC's from?

Can you evaluate this? He is willing to sell the stone separately. I love the transitional cut...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/391039992550?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
 
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