1st Hearts Picture by Wink - Thanks John Quixote

[WinkHPD]

Hey, it aint got color, and the stone is not A Cut Above nor a Venus, but it IS a gorgeous stone.

John. Thanks for the time and the help today! I kind of had it sort of figured out, but John helped me put the finishing touches on at last getting a photo that was usable, not great, but usable. Then we had just the greatest chat, John is a class act!

So, John and others, this stone is a D-VS2, honking gorgeous, what does this picture tell you that I don''t know how to read yet? This old mind is like a fertile field awaiting its annual plowing and sowing of the seeds of knowledge. Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to sow the first of those seeds...

Wink

 

[Lord Summerisle]

can i have a stab at it too?

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Actually i was having fun today... taying to take some images with my digital camer, with the lens stuffed down a toilet roll, propped up with a pair of tweezers for stability while the roll was perched ontop of a scope trying to take pics of the arrows, hearts and IS image... nowt as good as this tho... will edit one down to posting size

 

[JohnQuixote]

Attention Garry Holloway! Fresh off the PS wire...Demand for standardized photo system for patterning escalates...Precision geeks on the rise...Alert!...Alert!

Wink,

Thanks for the comments. I also had a great time on the phone with you today.

On to bid'ness...

As we know, what constitutes “acceptable” for Hearts & Arrows is arguable. Perhaps one distant day labs will become involved in the grading of Hearts & Arrows cut quality, but for now interested consumers will educate themselves and decide what level of quality is right for their circumstances – if they are even into this level of precision.
Usual disclaimer: A non-H&A with proven proportions may be as beautiful as a H&A. Near-True H&A patterning may be as beautiful as True H&A patterning.

Usual “however:” We are finding that minor facets constructed to specific measurements within sets of proven major proportions result in a particular character of beauty and consistent performance over a broad range of lighting conditions.

(Disclaimers out of the way)

On to your diamond, Wink. Hope you don’t mind – I ran this checklist on it...

Total uniformity and symmetry in both hearts and arrows patterns.
Decent. Patterns at 2, 5, 7 & 11 are slightly larger.
They are consistent with each other, though. More on that later.
Pattern is well centered.
Fine.
No broken, split or different sized hearts.
Ok. No breaks. The tiny splits are acceptable (see here and scroll down).
Different sized hearts? See above. The 4 larger patterns are consistent.
Not exacting, but not poor. Having 1 or 2 obviously larger patterns would put it further "out."
Hearts slightly separate from arrowheads above.
Yes. Note patterns at 12, 3, 6 & 9 have slightly longer LGF lengths.
This slight LGF inconsistency is also connected to the different sized hearts.
No misshaped arrowheads, broken shafts or misalignment of shaft to head.
Need to see Ideal Scope or Arrows image.
Suspect it is not a problem: Precise arrows are a result of good pavilion patterning.
As Cutter the Brian sez: "It's all in the hearts."
Arrow points all meet the girdle.
Need to see Ideal Scope or Arrows image.
No unevenness caused by extreme variance.
Do you have a full Sarin Wink? (details of major and minor - all angles?) It would tell more about the 4 slightly different sized hearts and notable variance.
No distortion caused by facet yaw.
We need to be careful here...

There is slight asymmetry at the points of several heart patterns. This is seen in many stones. Though it has a similar appearance to yaw it is not necessarily that: A heart point is a joining of reflections from 2 adjacent main pavilion facets (see diagram below). The precision to which they overlap and even the degree of meet point symmetry determines the crispness at that reflective joining. I will post another example that has yaw and LGFs that are too long.

Lab grade of Ideal (GIA Ex) in symmetry (meet point symmetry)
Lab grade of Ideal (GIA Ex) in polish with great luster
Wink?

Note that GIA has determined that there is no visible difference in grades of G, VG and Ex. However, for our purposes the difference in G and Ex for meet point or indexed symmetry could influence the asymmetry we observed at the heart points.

Do you have the Ideal Scope or Arrows image?

Here is a diagram of how 2 reflections create a heart's point: The main pavilion facet reflects on the opposite side and the lower girdle half separates the arrowhead above the heart.

 

[JohnQuixote]

One of Brian's illustrations on how hearts are formed, presented at the IDCC (page 42, Wink)

 

[JohnQuixote]

Here is an illustration of a diamond with facet yaw, observable as non-uniformity occuring within many of the hearts, side to side. The heart points here ARE asymmetrical due to yaw. The lower girdles on this one are extremely long, causing pronounced splits in the clefts of the hearts.

For a completely techno-rambloiderous flallop and banteresque hodgenik of flibulent and baldering hepgush on things that go "yaw" in the night, one may absorb this thread of musings.

The brain trust has since moved to private speculation, but stay tuned. For the geekiest of us there is more to come.

 

[WinkHPD]

Oooohhhhh! My head hurts. What hit me? Did anyone get the license number of that truck???

Will take arrows picture tomorrow.

Wow! There is MUCH for this poor merchant to learn...

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

We could work on H&A''s photographic standards too John - but me thinks a better approach is an accurate Helium scan converted to a Gem Adviser - because there is no way to photoshop it.

Most better manfacturers here in India all have Helium, and since it is now clear to me that most H&A''s diamonds are manufactured here in Surat, often with Janak Mistry''s supervision of processes, it is obvious that the scan should be done in the factory.
In the future I can see that at time of manufacture idealscope and realistic photo''s will be done then. Dealers will buy the stones with the service done here with less expensive labour costs and better equipment than is typically available elsewhere.

How many organizations in Europe or America can afford to by a different scanner for each sized diamond? Manufacturers can - they typically have 20 to 50 Sarin, Ogi and Helium / Pacor scanners in each factory.

 

[WinkHPD]

Please illuminate us, what is a helium scan?

Wink

 

[JohnQuixote]

Wink - Scanners like Sarin measure using silhouettes. The problem is that there is also azimuth to a facet, not just basic inclination and Sarin doesn't get this. The Helium is more accurate because it measures angle of inclination and azimuth so it picks up smaller distortions and details. It comes up with a 3D model and even reports things like extra facets.

In addition to the obvious large-scale implications of improved accuracy, Helium could also prove useful with the small but pertinent-to-us details of facet yaw.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Thanks for chiming IN(from)DIA, Garry. Ow-yar goin?

Date: 2/26/2005 12:52:19 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
We could work on H&A's photographic standards too John - but me thinks a better approach is an accurate Helium scan converted to a Gem Adviser - because there is no way to photoshop it.

Just as realistic DiamCalc images are useful now, I would of course love to see a H&A patterning feature as an option. I still think there will be a need for "live" H&A shots in a standard system like the one you have for IdealScope. Wink...You're on it! Git er done.

Most better manfacturers here in India all have Helium, and since it is now clear to me that most H&A's diamonds are manufactured here in Surat, often with Janak Mistry's supervision of processes, it is obvious that the scan should be done in the factory.

In the future I can see that at time of manufacture idealscope and realistic photo's will be done then. Dealers will buy the stones with the service done here with less expensive labour costs and better equipment than is typically available elsewhere.

That day is likely a ways off though, don't you think?

Also, how much of this can realistically be done before it begins cutting people out of the process? The ramifications vertical alignment of so much of the process would have on producer to supplier to dealer relations would be brutal... Would factories then go throw fresh Helium'd, Gem Adviser'd, Imagem-graded, IdealScope, Clarity-photo'd, H&A photo'd diamonds up on a site and allow dealers - or anyone - to order like customers do now from dealers? The pinch is on already.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 2/26/2005 1:46:48 AM
Author: JohnQuixote
Thanks for chiming IN(from)DIA, Garry. Ow-yar goin?

Date: 2/26/2005 12:52:19 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Most better manfacturers here in India all have Helium, and since it is now clear to me that most H&A's diamonds are manufactured here in Surat, often with Janak Mistry's supervision of processes, it is obvious that the scan should be done in the factory.

In the future I can see that at time of manufacture idealscope and realistic photo's will be done then. Dealers will buy the stones with the service done here with less expensive labour costs and better equipment than is typically available elsewhere. It is possible that Pricescope may be about to elevate to another level John.

That day is likely a ways off though, don't you think?

Also, how much of this can realistically be done before it begins cutting people out of the process? The ramifications vertical alignment of so much of the process would have on producer to supplier to dealer relations would be brutal... Would factories then go throw fresh Helium'd, Gem Adviser'd, Imagem-graded, IdealScope, Clarity-photo'd, H&A photo'd diamonds up on a site and allow dealers - or anyone - to order like customers do now from dealers? The pinch is on already.

It seems I am not gettting through the simple message that beautiful diamonds in huge quantities are being manufactured here. One smaller guy I visited made 93% (about 500 stones) of a single days production from one of his 3 factories in +.97 DiamCalc light return - I saw the delivery and the information sheet and checked some of the stones. This is real. And do they want to take advantage of their wonderful product - or let it be sold as Russian, Israeli or Belgian goods?

Of course they will do things about it as soon as they can.
And since it is my crusade to improve the cut quality of all diamonds - I am even more pleased that I see thousand carat parcels of cheap low brownish included goods bound for the Mauls or America with better than 50% ideal-scope passes.

I feel like it is time to pat myself on the back and raise a glass of fine wine with Sergey who has also made a huge impact here in diamond manufacturing quality.

The other honourable mention in achieving this feat is Janak Mistry - I need a better photo of him - he is on the left here.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Wink - Scanners like Sarin measure using silhouettes. The problem is that there is also azimuth to a facet, not just basic inclination and Sarin doesn''t get this. The Helium is more accurate because it measures angle of inclination and azimuth so it picks up smaller distortions and details. It comes up with a 3D model and even reports things like extra facets.

In addition to the obvious large-scale implications of improved accuracy, Helium could also prove useful with the small but pertinent-to-us details of facet yaw.

Interesting read John:

I have read in the past that sarin measuring using silhouettes have a hard time differentiating between the upper girdle and bezel facets. Some diamonds scanned display such a minimal difference between the average upper girdles and the bezels, there’s a difficult time distinguishing the separation of facets and where the junctions of the UG facets occur. Because of the indistinct facet junctions the facets seem to be merged into one curved facet.

Can traditional silhouette sarin scanning technology be improved to alter this flaw in scanning?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The scanner companies have been under a lot of pressure to reduce the number of images taken to build the scan.

In addition, and as part of this process, the scanners use averaging algortithms - so they automatically place the facets opposite each other at 0, 45, 90, ...etc. If you want higher accuracy then you must take more scans. But a computer can not process +400 photos in 15 seconds.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/26/2005 12:52:19 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

it is obvious that the scan should be done in the factory...

Sure. How long might it take for PS spin off to outpace Blue Nile ?

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Date: 2/26/2005 4:51:48 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
But a computer can not process +400 photos in 15 seconds.

But the technology now being utalised in the 3D modelling and architecture industries, could be utilised.

Some of the (even simple) models i have had to produce for work, or even when at uni... 3D detailed models of the buildings i am designing could take days to render a single image (wasnt unusual for students to have a computer tied up for a week producing 3 rendered views of their building...) but what has happened now is the programs can utilize a bank of computers networked together... this has got processing time down to ooooo 6 hours (still the same image took 48 before we upgraded to the networked version)

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 2/26/2005 2:21:19 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

It is possible that Pricescope may be about to elevate to another level John.

Would you care to elaborate on this comment?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[perry]

I suspect that Gary H is indicating that he thinks someone ought to set up a site to sell those wonderfull diamonds from India, using Helium information as part of the process. I also suspect that Gary H is indicating that this could somehow be connected to Pricescope.

Pricescope by definition is an educational site, and specifically stays away from direct sales.

However, that does not mean that there cannot be a way to set-up something similar to some of the better diamond sites (I always like the Blue Nile search engine).

This is just speculation of course, but after playing with nuetrons for 4 years perhaps it is time to move on to something else. It certainly cannot be any higher stress than working in a Nuclear Power Plant, nor longer hours.

I am principally a tech head (Engineer), and have purposely stayed away from getting detailed involved with how the optics of the cuts work (it would be really easy for me to get sucked into that - but as a consumer not relevant and a huge time waster).

No promises, but if someone is looking to put together an organization to market those diamonds and provide customer service. Let me know and we can talk about the possibilities and where I might fit in.

Perry

 

[pricescope]

Perry, you''re correct. Pricescope is not going to sell anything (I''m a bad sales person anyway

).

There are some new developments and many ideas as always. Garry and I are excited but it is too early to talk about it right now. Whatever we''ll should enhance information for consumers in the first place.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/26/2005 2:21:19 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

It is possible that Pricescope may be about to elevate to another level John. I do not see why the people I have met in Surat India would take a long time to impliment these things. It seems I am not gettting through the simple message that beautiful diamonds in huge quantities are being manufactured here. One smaller guy I visited made 93% (about 500 stones) of a single days production from one of his 3 factories in +.97 DiamCalc light return - I saw the delivery and the information sheet and checked some of the stones. This is real. And do they want to take advantage of their wonderful product - or let it be sold as Russian, Israeli or Belgian goods?

Of course they will do things about it as soon as they can.

Hey Garry – Remember when you’ve asked me & Paul, etc. if we were drinking when posting? Well, sounds like you ‘ad a Darwin Stubby or two – time to boil the billy, mate. Fair dinkum – you’ve gone blue!

Seriously though, time for a reset.

Great diamonds are being produced elsewhere. These factories could have adopted some kind of direct sales model before. Frankly consumers are not storming the Internet in unmanageable hordes to buy! buy! buy! without first learning and looking and learning more.

We’re not selling towels here. People can go to towel.com and buy what they want without education or assessment. TowelScope and the TIA grading lab don’t exist. There is no Towel Nut or Lord Summerstowel or Terry to answer questions about absorbancy versus spread.

An unassisted sale is when person logs in, clicks on a diamond and buys it via credit card with no live communication. Do you know what ratio of U.A.s exists for all vendors combined? For that matter, I’d be interested in knowing how many of the U.A.s are due to the level of EDUCATION gained in a place like PS first.

People want service. People want people.

If I misread your comments please redirect. As for PS - I am all for the evolution of diamond education first and foremost. I don't think Leo's intent is to mix what PS offers with sales... There is a marriage of available education and available bridges to multiple vendors here without conflict of interests.

And since it is my crusade to improve the cut quality of all diamonds - I am even more pleased that I see thousand carat parcels of cheap low brownish included goods bound for the Mauls or America with better than 50% ideal-scope passes.

Well golly. Improve patterning and you improve cut quality (watch as I try to steer this runaway bus back on-topic for Wink). To that end, keep your antennae up and on 'receive' as well as 'send' for me, ok?

I feel like it is time to pat myself on the back and raise a glass of fine wine with Sergey who has also made a huge impact here in diamond manufacturing quality.

Kudos. Every once in a while in life it's appropriate to look back along the path you've taken and smile as the seeds you sow take root. Cheers. I've told you before it's my shout at JCK.

Now don't break a wing patting yourself on the back, sport. You still have to fly home!

The other honourable mention in achieving this feat is Janak Mistry - I need a better photo of him - he is on the left here.

Janak does not know this yes - as we've not formally met - but I think he has the coolest science-fiction type name ever. Say it again... Janak Mistry. Say it with a long s. Missssssstry. Yep. Just plain cool.

(only pic I could find)

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hey Sir Knight, calm down

I was very excited when thinking about my experiances in Surat because I think some of them will start putting Gem Adviser and ideal-scope photo's onto their stones that they list on their internal B2B sites.
This means that Ideal-scope will be used as a means of making stock selections - at least a couple of companies promised they would do it.
That means you guys will all have some new sources - but most of them do not have lab reports - you e tailers would need to go direct to them yourself - but I cant see why that would not happen, unless there is some sort of prejudice that says Indian's only polish junk.
If you think that, then I wonder why De Beers dropped a lot of NY, Israel and Belgian sight holders and gave more goods to India.

Sorry Wink for hijacking the thread

 

[JohnQuixote]

Garry, I''ll lower the lance, now that you''ve made it concise.

Factories doing Helium/GA and IS would be a boon. Maybe that''s what you were alluding to with PS, since Leo has recently included Image, IS (and GA to come) in the search... Standardization!

I think vendors would welcome new lines of supply of beautiful goods (who wouldn''t?). I''m aware of past rumblings about Indian goods, but times change. Quality will speak for itself.

 

[denverappraiser]

Wink,

About that lovely picture....

Can you give us some clues about how you did it? I don''t get a private lesson from the master but a few crumbs for the rest of the masses would be lovely.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/26/2005 1:18:37 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Wink,

About that lovely picture....

Can you give us some clues about how you did it? I don''t get a private lesson from the master but a few crumbs for the rest of the masses would be lovely.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

The biggest problem, and one that I figured out about 5 minutes before Senhor Quixote called me back was that you have to take the LENSE out of your viewer. Trying to take one lense through another resulted in some VERY wierd pictures.

Then when talking with John it became apparent that there was a very slight tllt in the tray holding the stone from absolute perpendicular to the lense of the camera due to mechanical slack in the camera setup. Once this was corrected it became an issue more of lining things up correctly and clicking the shutter. This is not at all easy, since a mm or two one way or the other skews the picture and results in VERY BAD photos. It is possible to end up with something that looks more like a crysanthemum than hearts if you are just a little bit off...

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

Okay, here is the REST OF THE STORY.

No full Sarin report, only the numbers from the PGS Consultation. Enclosed full frontal picture, arrows picture, and hearts picture.

Please feel free to comment. There are perhaps some very minor problems, and I accept that this is not a PERFECT H&A stone, but I submitt that it is far superior to many that are being sold as H&A while not quite perhaps to the standard of a Venus or a Whiteflash. Very little light leakage on the idealscope picture though.

I want to know more about how to read these photos, rather than just present them as proof of how nice a stone this is. I have a headache from your earlier posts, go ahead, KNOCK ME THE REST of the way OUT!

Wink

P.S. John knows I am really eating this up, it makes my head hurt, but it is so wonderful to gain this knowledge!

 

[WinkHPD]

P.S. Don''t forget to notice the wonderful dispersion in this picture. And this in fluorescent lighting!

 

[strmrdr]

Lets see if I can avoid making a fool out of myself.
Let me start by saying this is a beautiful near h&a Diamond.
The crown angle number is a little high at 35.3 to be considered super ideal in my opinion.

Now lets tear it apart a little :}
Lets start with the girdle facets which I put blue marks on and circled.
They are a little uneven.
If you look at the ideal-scope image the white leakage marks around the arrows are different sizes and different distance from the arrows.
I suspect that the girdle on this one is a little wavey.
But this isnt being marketed as a super-ideal so no biggie.

edit: woops just noticed I missed a tick mark or 2 on the top photo but I think its enough to get the idea.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/26/2005 2

8:35 PM
Author: strmrdr
Lets see if I can avoid making a fool out of myself.
Let me start by saying this is a beautiful near h&a Diamond.
The crown angle number is a little high at 35.3 to be considered super ideal in my opinion.

Now lets tear it apart a little :}
Lets start with the girdle facets which I put blue marks on and circled.
They are a little uneven.
If you look at the ideal-scope image the white leakage marks around the arrows are different sizes and different distance from the arrows.
I suspect that the girdle on this one is a little wavey.
But this isnt being marketed as a super-ideal so no biggie.

edit: woops just noticed I missed a tick mark or 2 on the top photo but I think its enough to get the idea.

Hmm, working from memory, I think I am allowed clear up to a 35.8 to be consided ideal, but those numbers are constantly changing, and I don't know if AGS will still allow that steep in their new parameters, Paul or John or Gary could tell you that better than I.

I believe that this stone qualifies as an H&A under most guidelines here in the states, and certainly qualifies as an ideal cut, and with an HCA of 1.2 it is incredibly beautiful. I know I get worse stones from dealers all the time claiming to be H&A, including the one in the photographic evidence thread that I just posted the horrible hearts on. I also believe that there could have been minor improvements made on the stone, but am curious if they would be eye visible to the normal retail client? At what point do we start buying paper and forget about beauty? And you are right, it is priced lower than a Venus by Infinity by a few %, as it does have these minor transgressions.

Wink

 

[strmrdr]

The quickest way to tell at a glance that its not true h&a is the area I circled here compared to similar areas.
Its what stands out the quickest to me anyway.

 

[strmrdr]

Wink super-ideal and ideal are too different critters.
If you want me to stop and just say its a beautiful diamond I will but if you want my analyst of the diamond and im real picky about it I will take some time to do so.

This is why I hate working with someone''s in stock diamond when doing this.