A Thread for Those Caring for Aging Parents etc.
- Thread starter VRBeauty
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One day I might wright about my father. Today, I just wanted to mention a book, actually, several, written by Christina Maslach. She is a psychologist who works on burnout. This book is dedicated to professional burnout, but some things might apply to personal caregiver's burnout, too. I think that burnout is typical and expected in people taking care of the elderly. Another thing that is very obvious, we all feel the fear looking at our ailing parents. I know it is not something we necessarily want to discuss, but I felt necessary to mention it. https://www.amazon.com/dp/1883536359/ref=rdr_ext_tmb
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Would love some advice / opinions on how to handle a situation with my elderly parents (mom is late 70s, dad is early 80s).
I'll keep it as simple as possible.
My parents are not in a good financial situation. What they have is all they have.
They recently downsized their apartment and so they have some extra money from that.
I just found out that they lent someone money.
At first I thought this must be a person I didn't know - but then found out it was friends of theirs. A couple who is much younger than my parents - maybe early 50s or 60s - and that I always perceived to be well off / have money.
I could give more details and thoughts but maybe they're not necessary.
My parents have a history of lending people money. And sadly, most times never getting paid back. One particular figure I remember was $13,000. I think that was the one that at the time (this was decades ago) I told them to not tell me any more when they lent people money because I didn't want to hear it any more since it would drive me crazy.
I don't ask my parents details of much of what they do any more and I don't say much any more one way or another.
The only reason i know about this $ is because my father asked me if I could put together an IOU for him because they lent someone money and maybe this way they'll pay. I also know how much it was ($7,000) because another family member told me. Supposedly they have 3 months to pay back this money (I think one month has already gone by).
I go back and forth between doing nothing and ignoring it (what I've been doing with most things lately), going to talk to these people directly and ask them to give the money back immediately, or going to a close friend of theirs and asking him to talk to these people to ask them to return the money.
I feel like at the very least everyone in their circle of friends should know that they accepted money from my parents.
I also know that these people will probably not be the last people my parents will lend money to.
What would you do?
ETA: both my parents are of sound mind and body, although my father is showing signs of slipping. Their dynamic has always been whatever my mother says, goes.
I'll keep it as simple as possible.
My parents are not in a good financial situation. What they have is all they have.
They recently downsized their apartment and so they have some extra money from that.
I just found out that they lent someone money.
At first I thought this must be a person I didn't know - but then found out it was friends of theirs. A couple who is much younger than my parents - maybe early 50s or 60s - and that I always perceived to be well off / have money.
I could give more details and thoughts but maybe they're not necessary.
My parents have a history of lending people money. And sadly, most times never getting paid back. One particular figure I remember was $13,000. I think that was the one that at the time (this was decades ago) I told them to not tell me any more when they lent people money because I didn't want to hear it any more since it would drive me crazy.
I don't ask my parents details of much of what they do any more and I don't say much any more one way or another.
The only reason i know about this $ is because my father asked me if I could put together an IOU for him because they lent someone money and maybe this way they'll pay. I also know how much it was ($7,000) because another family member told me. Supposedly they have 3 months to pay back this money (I think one month has already gone by).
I go back and forth between doing nothing and ignoring it (what I've been doing with most things lately), going to talk to these people directly and ask them to give the money back immediately, or going to a close friend of theirs and asking him to talk to these people to ask them to return the money.
I feel like at the very least everyone in their circle of friends should know that they accepted money from my parents.
I also know that these people will probably not be the last people my parents will lend money to.
What would you do?
ETA: both my parents are of sound mind and body, although my father is showing signs of slipping. Their dynamic has always been whatever my mother says, goes.
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Nothing.
Your parents' disrespect of their money is not your burden to carry. (If I remember correctly, they have had problems being responsible with money.)
If you want to get tough with them, advise them you wonder if their careless dispersal of money is an indicator of cognitive decline---time for a neuro-psychiatric exam? Some kind of arrangement where they can't access their money in sums over X-hundred or thousands?
Honestly, if they are okay with having their old age in a bottom of the barrel AL or nursing/memory facility, there is nothing to be done by you about that unless you're willing to destroy the finances of you and your DH, and ruining your own retirements. Repeat After Me: Their money is theirs to do with as they please---and I will not throw my family's financial security down their black hole after it.
People are strange when money and family are involved. My parents (87 and 86) tossed me out on my own while I was a teenager, all the while picking up tabs, giving and loaning money to employees, friends and relatives. They paid for/helped with nothing my entire life. "We will not help you, but you will not have to help us" was told to me starting at 15 until I was 52 when I told them to never say that around me ever again (they used me and my husband like slaves). My mother expected me to cash in a retirement account (30% penalty, etc) in order to give it to her so she need not touch $1.5M in penalty-free savings
.
I said No.
It about killed me to say No, but I did and if I can, anyone can
Your parents' disrespect of their money is not your burden to carry. (If I remember correctly, they have had problems being responsible with money.)
If you want to get tough with them, advise them you wonder if their careless dispersal of money is an indicator of cognitive decline---time for a neuro-psychiatric exam? Some kind of arrangement where they can't access their money in sums over X-hundred or thousands?
Honestly, if they are okay with having their old age in a bottom of the barrel AL or nursing/memory facility, there is nothing to be done by you about that unless you're willing to destroy the finances of you and your DH, and ruining your own retirements. Repeat After Me: Their money is theirs to do with as they please---and I will not throw my family's financial security down their black hole after it.
People are strange when money and family are involved. My parents (87 and 86) tossed me out on my own while I was a teenager, all the while picking up tabs, giving and loaning money to employees, friends and relatives. They paid for/helped with nothing my entire life. "We will not help you, but you will not have to help us" was told to me starting at 15 until I was 52 when I told them to never say that around me ever again (they used me and my husband like slaves). My mother expected me to cash in a retirement account (30% penalty, etc) in order to give it to her so she need not touch $1.5M in penalty-free savings
.I said No.
It about killed me to say No, but I did and if I can, anyone can
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I have to say that I sadly agree with azstonie. I gave my mom $500 for her birthday to help her out (she woudnt take more) and then she turned around and bought each of her daughters a $100 crystal vase 
($300).
Nothing you or I can do. She worries incessantly about money, is constantly in a bind and yet she won't change. I don't talk to her about money any more.
That is not how I want to live my final years out...
I do agree if it is a sign of cognitive decline, I would use it to enter a conversaton about cognitive decline. I might also consider if, when settling their estate, you can send bills to the people who received loans... might shake things up a bit....
But..... what can you do? Nothing. They have no concern for money and you can't make them care about their choices.
($300).Nothing you or I can do. She worries incessantly about money, is constantly in a bind and yet she won't change. I don't talk to her about money any more.
That is not how I want to live my final years out...
I do agree if it is a sign of cognitive decline, I would use it to enter a conversaton about cognitive decline. I might also consider if, when settling their estate, you can send bills to the people who received loans... might shake things up a bit....
But..... what can you do? Nothing. They have no concern for money and you can't make them care about their choices.
Ceej, if you literally do not have the words or the emotional strength to put *your own family* ahead of your parents, go to outofthefog.net, and/or do a couple sessions with a therapist strictly focused on your refusal skills when it comes to your parents and your/DHs money (EAP benefit from workplace insurance).
Enmeshed; you don't want to be enmeshed, financially or otherwise.
Enmeshed; you don't want to be enmeshed, financially or otherwise.
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I get it. We would have to have some wine and talk because my parents and money...... too disturbing to discuss. Too exhausting. My father died and left mom 12k in life insurance. I'd be mad about it, but I guess he realized after he was buried, she would blow it all immediately and be here anyway. Probably not off on that...
Whitewave, gah I'm sorry for that craziness you went through with your mom but I'm in awe you figured it out so quickly and I applaud you!
Eta: Our posts crossed. Yes to wine or stronger when discussing parents & money, parent & spouses, and in-laws!!!!
Eta: Our posts crossed. Yes to wine or stronger when discussing parents & money, parent & spouses, and in-laws!!!!
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And what really is incredible is that with all that money they spent and she spends-- no retirement, no savings, spend as fast as you get it-- they have absolutely nothing to show for it. (And it wasn't gambling or alcohol or drugs).
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Lots of therapy starting as soon as I left the house. Once they wanted me to take out a loan so they could pay their house off and avoid bankruptcy. I was 21 and said no and she blamed me for the following months that if they lost the house, it would be my fault.
Sent me straight to a T to untangle that mindF.
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Sadly it's even worse than the risk of spending their old age in a low quality nursing home or memory care facility.
Medicare doesn't pay for custodial care-- they would have to pay for it themselves-- and there is a 5-year look-back period for Medicaid. Any money they gave away (and lending money without getting it back is tantamount to giving it away) in the 5 years prior to applying for Medicaid would incur a penalty period, which is calculated by a formula that varies state by state. They could find themselves without the funds to get care, with no help from Medicaid either.
If you are not aware of agingcare.com, I highly recommend it. It helped me a lot while I was caring for my mother, who had Alzheimer's. Post your question there; someone who has gone through a similar situation may have concrete suggestions for you.
By the way, if the time comes when you have to admit them to a nursing home, read all papers very carefully before you sign. The nursing home may ask you to sign a paper that would make you responsible for the cost of their care, which you obviously will not want to sign!! A moment of inattention when doing paperwork could cost you enormously.
Medicare doesn't pay for custodial care-- they would have to pay for it themselves-- and there is a 5-year look-back period for Medicaid. Any money they gave away (and lending money without getting it back is tantamount to giving it away) in the 5 years prior to applying for Medicaid would incur a penalty period, which is calculated by a formula that varies state by state. They could find themselves without the funds to get care, with no help from Medicaid either.
If you are not aware of agingcare.com, I highly recommend it. It helped me a lot while I was caring for my mother, who had Alzheimer's. Post your question there; someone who has gone through a similar situation may have concrete suggestions for you.
By the way, if the time comes when you have to admit them to a nursing home, read all papers very carefully before you sign. The nursing home may ask you to sign a paper that would make you responsible for the cost of their care, which you obviously will not want to sign!! A moment of inattention when doing paperwork could cost you enormously.
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CJ, I don't think there is anything you can do. It's their money and they are free to manage it or mismanage it however they like.
This must be a fairly common problem when dealing with elderly parents. My husband recently attending a speaking engagement our financial planner had said was interesting. They spoke for a few moments about setting banking and checking accounts up for elderly parents so an outside person's signature (a person the elderly person assigned) would also be required to sign on checks or withdrawl's over an agreed amount of money. The reasoning was it may prevent an older person from being taken advantage of. A set up like this may help in instances like what you described.
We never broached the subject of setting up an account that required another signature with my parents. They are extremely stubborn. The older they get, the more difficult it is to get them to look at things logically (my parents are the same age as your parents). I hear similar stories from my friends with elderly parents.
I'm sorry you are dealing with this CJ.
This must be a fairly common problem when dealing with elderly parents. My husband recently attending a speaking engagement our financial planner had said was interesting. They spoke for a few moments about setting banking and checking accounts up for elderly parents so an outside person's signature (a person the elderly person assigned) would also be required to sign on checks or withdrawl's over an agreed amount of money. The reasoning was it may prevent an older person from being taken advantage of. A set up like this may help in instances like what you described.
We never broached the subject of setting up an account that required another signature with my parents. They are extremely stubborn. The older they get, the more difficult it is to get them to look at things logically (my parents are the same age as your parents). I hear similar stories from my friends with elderly parents.
I'm sorry you are dealing with this CJ.
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Thank you so much for your advice and perspective.
What makes this harder is that I don't have a horrible history with my parents so I can't point to anything terrible they've done to me. It makes it harder that they're nice. And my personality - not a people person - doesn't help either.
They did ask to borrow money a few years ago and I lent it but I wasn't happy about it and they did pay it back quickly. I am not a generous person with money, maybe from having seen them give it away all their lives.
And they certainly would let me borrow money in heartbeat.
So all that makes it harder.
But nothing is in a vacuum. Bad decisions they make now will affect me and my DH at some point. Will I be willing to lose everything to help them? No. But at the same time I also know the guilt of not helping will cause me to do *something* and that something will surely have an impact on DH and I.
It's funny I don't think of them as irresponsible with money but more like...yeah, like they don't care about money. Like they're so nice they don't care about money and if someone needs it they give it to them. Even though lately especially not having any has put them in situations where especially my mother has been emotionally down and worried which is not her nature.
What I am also concerned about in this situation is that these people have no intention of paying that money and that they're taking advantage of my parents' generous nature. Maybe they're going to keep borrowing. Maybe they'll con them out of more. I don't know. When I didn't know who the person was that borrowed the $ it DID cross my mind to send someone over there to aggressively ask them to give back their money. Seriously like at the very least people in their circle should know that these people are CAPABLE of taking money from people everyone knows don't have it to give away. Like they're taking from the elderly. Like maybe they're not nice people at all.
Does any of this make any difference or does it bottom line out to the same exact thing.
What makes this harder is that I don't have a horrible history with my parents so I can't point to anything terrible they've done to me. It makes it harder that they're nice. And my personality - not a people person - doesn't help either.
They did ask to borrow money a few years ago and I lent it but I wasn't happy about it and they did pay it back quickly. I am not a generous person with money, maybe from having seen them give it away all their lives.
And they certainly would let me borrow money in heartbeat.
So all that makes it harder.
But nothing is in a vacuum. Bad decisions they make now will affect me and my DH at some point. Will I be willing to lose everything to help them? No. But at the same time I also know the guilt of not helping will cause me to do *something* and that something will surely have an impact on DH and I.
It's funny I don't think of them as irresponsible with money but more like...yeah, like they don't care about money. Like they're so nice they don't care about money and if someone needs it they give it to them. Even though lately especially not having any has put them in situations where especially my mother has been emotionally down and worried which is not her nature.
What I am also concerned about in this situation is that these people have no intention of paying that money and that they're taking advantage of my parents' generous nature. Maybe they're going to keep borrowing. Maybe they'll con them out of more. I don't know. When I didn't know who the person was that borrowed the $ it DID cross my mind to send someone over there to aggressively ask them to give back their money. Seriously like at the very least people in their circle should know that these people are CAPABLE of taking money from people everyone knows don't have it to give away. Like they're taking from the elderly. Like maybe they're not nice people at all.
Does any of this make any difference or does it bottom line out to the same exact thing.
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Callie I just saw your post...
At one time I would have asked my parents to do something like that (either require my signature or let me manage their $ or at least some of it).
But now I don't know that I want to be that involved so that I get to see all the stuff they want to do. I'm better off not knowing. I never thought I would say that.
The one piece of advice the financial advisor had given us that was easy to remember and carry out and that I've repeated over and over to them they did not do and they did the exact opposite.
It's hard.
Sorry that you guys are dealing with these things too.
Thank you to each of you Kristie, whitewave, pearls, callie - for your answers I really appreciate them and will go back and reread them as I know you've given me some specific tips too. Thank you.
(BTW all the stuff about Medicare, the lookback period, etc. I had done so much research now I forget most of it but yes I had told them all kinds of things we needed to be careful with...and THANKS for the warning about the nursing home papers. I will not forget that.)
At one time I would have asked my parents to do something like that (either require my signature or let me manage their $ or at least some of it).
But now I don't know that I want to be that involved so that I get to see all the stuff they want to do. I'm better off not knowing. I never thought I would say that.
The one piece of advice the financial advisor had given us that was easy to remember and carry out and that I've repeated over and over to them they did not do and they did the exact opposite.
It's hard.
Sorry that you guys are dealing with these things too.
Thank you to each of you Kristie, whitewave, pearls, callie - for your answers I really appreciate them and will go back and reread them as I know you've given me some specific tips too. Thank you.
(BTW all the stuff about Medicare, the lookback period, etc. I had done so much research now I forget most of it but yes I had told them all kinds of things we needed to be careful with...and THANKS for the warning about the nursing home papers. I will not forget that.)
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My mother expected me to cash in a retirement account (30% penalty, etc) in order to give it to her so she need not touch $1.5M in penalty-free savings
Wow.
Just wow to both of these.
Azstonie - enmeshed is the right word. I think that's why lately I've been not asking questions.
The ________ mindF, I know it well! Sistah
I get you!!!!Have you ever been on outofthefog.net? The site is great, the forum is mindblowing. Check out the Elderly PD Relatives thread among others.
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Just have been thinking about this part for some reason, how similar it is to what whitewave described...
"She worries incessantly about money, is constantly in a bind and yet she won't change. I don't talk to her about money any more."
That is my mother too, at least lately.
Then the minute they get a little extra, she lends some of it.
I don't get it.
And what were these people doing? Waiting like vultures until they sold their apartment?
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The ________ mindF, I know it well! Sistah
Have you ever been on outofthefog.net? The site is great, the forum is mindblowing. Check out the Elderly PD Relatives thread among others.
I'll go check it out. I learned about FOG and JADE on the BPD boards.
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CJ, I really don’t have much to contribute, just wanted to say I’m sorry you’re dealing with this - your parents sound like nice and generous people who are just trying to help others. Unfortunately , that also makes them targets so I get why you’re concerned. How long ago was the money lent? You’re assuming they’re not going to pay it back but you don’t know for sure. I’m not sure you can force these people to pay it back anyway, I don’t know the legalities. If all of this was done verbally, there’s no proof it was a loan and these people could say it was a gift. You could talk to these people, or have a lawyer send a letter, but it depends on how involved you want to get. I don’t like the idea of older people being taken advantage of so I’d probably have a conversation with these people, if only to let them know you are aware of the situation. Who knows, maybe they’ll pay it back out of embarrassment. Your parents are the ones who should follow up but it doesn’t sound like they will.
I don’t think there’s much you can do to stop them from lending people money. They’re not mentally incompetent and it’s their money. You could try talking to them and stress that they will eventually need some savings for an emergency. Tell them it’s causing you a lot of worry and stress and life would be easier for everyone if they stopped doing it.
These are just random thoughts...again, sorry about all of this, this family stuff is hard. I understand not wanting to get involved but it sounds like you would have peace of mind if your parents agreed to stop giving their money away.
I don’t think there’s much you can do to stop them from lending people money. They’re not mentally incompetent and it’s their money. You could try talking to them and stress that they will eventually need some savings for an emergency. Tell them it’s causing you a lot of worry and stress and life would be easier for everyone if they stopped doing it.
These are just random thoughts...again, sorry about all of this, this family stuff is hard. I understand not wanting to get involved but it sounds like you would have peace of mind if your parents agreed to stop giving their money away.
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I have a question related to elders (hope its ok if I post). My friend said he and his father went to see a lawyer and sign some papers to
move his Dad's money into a trust to make it easier to get his mother into a medicaid nursing home when it was time. She is not doing well.
My friends father/mother are not poor and have savings/retirement but it doesnt sound like they want to spend it on the nursing home.
They want to pass it down to their kids. Is this a normal thing to do? I must be naive because I was a little surprised by this.
move his Dad's money into a trust to make it easier to get his mother into a medicaid nursing home when it was time. She is not doing well.
My friends father/mother are not poor and have savings/retirement but it doesnt sound like they want to spend it on the nursing home.
They want to pass it down to their kids. Is this a normal thing to do? I must be naive because I was a little surprised by this.
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There are legal asset-protection strategies that some use; others choose not to. There is a lot written about this on the Web, and at least one book I know of:
How to Protect Your Family's Assets From Devastating Nursing Home Costs by K. Gabriel Heiser, attorney.
https://www.amazon.com/Protect-Familys-Assets-Devastating-Nursing/dp/1941123058/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511892611&sr=1-1
How to Protect Your Family's Assets From Devastating Nursing Home Costs by K. Gabriel Heiser, attorney.
https://www.amazon.com/Protect-Familys-Assets-Devastating-Nursing/dp/1941123058/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511892611&sr=1-1
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I think you friends will have to tread carefully, be sure they cover every base, so to speak. Honestly, I don't' know what every base would be, and it may vary from state to state. I do know that just a couple years ago, when we moved my aunt, who has nothing to her name, from NY to NJ, she was already qualified for Medicaid in NY, but NJ made her go through the entire process again, including requiring two years of banking records, to be sure no money had been transferred out of her accounts in that time period.
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I guess thats why they are seeing a lawyer...but I thought medicaid was for those who truly had nothing to their name. Didnt know that a husband could
move all the money into a trust so the wife than truly has nothing to her name. Sounds like its gaming the system. So who ends up with the money in
the end...the kids and grandkids? That doesnt sound right to me.
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Her husband is keeping the assests in the family so he can continue living in his home while she is in the nursing home.
All our assets are in a trust and a will ----> we 'needed' the wills in order to disinherit my parents specifically by name. I'm 58. No kids.
The guardians of our dogs, should both DH and I die at the same time, or when the last one dies, will be set up nicely.
The guardians of our dogs, should both DH and I die at the same time, or when the last one dies, will be set up nicely.
All states have laws about filial responsibility. Google your state and filial responsibility to check your situation. Important to note that most states who have them, have not in the recent past, enforced them. Example from CA:
My grandmother died at 93 after being in AL/nursing-memory unit for 12 years total. She outlived all her money except for SS and my grandpa's pension (which of course didn't cover the cost of her care). The State of CA took over all assets except for her house, which my mom inherited/sold. CA could have taken the house.
If you are asked to be your parents POA or any other legally recognized entity, think twice because serving as such may make you, in some minds, *responsible* for them. Same thing if you move a sick, elderly relative into your home and that becomes unsustainable.
My grandmother died at 93 after being in AL/nursing-memory unit for 12 years total. She outlived all her money except for SS and my grandpa's pension (which of course didn't cover the cost of her care). The State of CA took over all assets except for her house, which my mom inherited/sold. CA could have taken the house.
If you are asked to be your parents POA or any other legally recognized entity, think twice because serving as such may make you, in some minds, *responsible* for them. Same thing if you move a sick, elderly relative into your home and that becomes unsustainable.
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