What''s a Pad Sapphire ?

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

hey Mogok and Dick, welcome to Pricescope. I think you have been around all year Mogok? Dick, I think we met when you were downunder at the GAA once?

BTW my take on a Pad is that it should be Orangsh Red more than Reddish Orange, and its tone should be 4-6 out of 10, and saturation at least 3 with 6 about the end of the scale.

Mr F tried to define it with Cr levels I think?

 

[rubydick]

Wow,

I'm feeling a bit like I should start running for office. Thanks to all of you for your kind words.

Regarding Burma vs. America, Vincent, all I can say to your students is that the world is not nearly as nasty a place as my govt. tries to make us believe. I am always amused that we Americans tell each other we are so free, and yet we are blind to the serious restrictions our govt. places on where we can and cannot go and what we can and cannot do.

My first passport actually had a list of places I could not go. North Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba and Albania, as I recall. I kinda understand some of them – we lost wars to North Korea, Cambodia, etc., but how the hell did Albania get on the list? Frankly, the only other passports I've seen restricted in that way are owned by Burmese. Sumthin' to think about... and if you like such discussions, see my Dog Skin Report. But this is strictly for the open-minded.

So my advice to your Yankee students is to go and see for themselves. I find our planet a wonderful place, full of twists and turns, something new around every bend. For a govt. to say certain parts are off-limits is in my opinion the antithesis of freedom and democracy, a flat-earth view of this wonderful circular world.

That said, Vincent, to answer your other question, US law currently does not forbid Americans from visiting Burma or even from purchasing gems and reselling them. It only forbids importation of Burmese products into the US. For more on this, see:

Banned! Burmese Gems in the Crossfire

I visit Burma as often as possible. My problem is the world is so big and Burma is not the only part I enjoy. Nepal is another place I continue to be drawn to:

Trek to Everest

But weren't we discussing padparadscha?

While this was not always the case in my more dogmatic youth, my opinion today is that such terms are a wonderful part of our industry. Seriously, wouldn't you rather own a padparadscha than a p/R 3.2 aluminum oxide? Describing a gem in that way is akin to describing a beautiful woman as a dual-x chromasome reproductive unit.

That said, I would use a wide-body definition for terms like padparadscha. Hopefully this would force the potential buyer to use that programmable random-access organic memory unit which sits behind their ocular organs.

 

[mhread]

Richard Sherwood - Thanks for the encouragement, and I do look forward to posting more.

Richard W. Hughes - you made me almost fall off my chair laughing with your last comment - it is very true what you say. However - no matter how beautiful she may appear - some times you just really need to know that she really is a dual-x chromasome reproductive unit.

 

[bettyann]

Just stumbled across this site and was thrilled to see posts by Richard Hughes.

Ruby and Sapphire is not just a great gemology book, but great reading as well.

I have a padparadsha question. Is their fluorescence apricot, as with yellow and orange sapphires, or is it red as with rubies? Or does it even matter?

Thanks in advance for any light shed on my question.

Bettyann

 

[rubydick]

Betty Ann,

For Sri Lankan stones, the fluorescence is typically apricot to red.

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/1/2004 4:36:56 PM bettyann wrote:



Or does it even matter?

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(add salt grain here)

Fluorescenece of the same color with the gem (red for ruby & spinel, the apricot? or orange or light red - whatever name for the said roze) seems to be a blessing, when mentioned at all. The logic behind this is that whatever makes the color appear more intense and saturated can only be good.

Same logic applies to blue fluorescence for near colorless diamonds. And I keep hearing the same about red fluorescence of pink sapphire and red spinel.

I wish I knew a web-based source for the topic, but this is not the case. This thread is becoming one - if it goes on

 

[rubydick]

Richard S. Sorry, but I will not touch that statement

And as for Ana, my my, but you do cut to the quick. Not that I'm complainin', for your point is so well made. What difference does fluorescence really make?

In my misspent youth, I once assumed that fluorescence was everything to ruby. But the analytical animal inside my pea-sized brain suggested I do some tests. I found that the ruby-cum-pink-sapphires that showed the strongest fluorescence to LW UV were stones of a medium pink color. Get a stronger red and the LW fluorescence dropped off. Ditto for spinel.

My conclusion? Fluorescence to LW UV was not the holy grail of ruby grading, but a decidedly unsteady peg to hang an evaluation on.

That said, I include the following graphic courtesy of Don Hoover that does an excellent job of explaining fluorescence in ruby. Note that certain wavelengths of visible light can excite much fluorescence.

Like a good wine, certain ideas need a bit of aging. And having aged a bit myself, I'm now understanding how my elders used to gently lecture me: judging color is a personal matter -- it defies definition.

Of course, I came of gemological age when all was possible, when colored stone grading was in its infancy, when we all expected a machine to take over the grading job.

I should have listened to my elders. They told me that a machine could never replace the human eye, that color preferences were an individual choice, that it was a reckless idea to suggest that one person's aesthetic would necessarily agree with another's.

But back to fluorescence. It certainly is a plus when it comes to ruby, since the emissions are so narrow and thus spectrally pure.

I feel it's a bit silly to grade diamonds in an environment that eliminates UV light that would otherwise cause certain stones to fluoresce, but then I never did claim any expertise on diamond grading. If a diamond naturally fluoresces under many common viewing conditions, then why cut that out of the grading environment? After all, a grading report is a means of quantifying the appearance of a gem.

So what is the impact on fluorescene on a pad? Good question. But in the end, it's the final color that's important, not the factors that influence or produce it.

You know what? I'm beginning to enjoy this forum.

Why? Because people are asking the questions that we so-called experts have learned to believe that we are too smart to answer.

We kid ourselves that we know it all. In reality, we know so little.

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/2/2004 12:59:37 PM rubydick wrote:



What difference does fluorescence really make?

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Perhaps my sense of humor is asleep today, but it feels oh-so nice to hear back. That silly post of mine took shortcut to assume your explanation known.

Given the naked eye is diamonds' worst friend, than remote shopping must be the anathema to all gems. Only words and grades show on the other side of the screen: no grading - no words - no gem. Courtesy of diamond database.

Something final happened to "trust your eyes" between D-IF and E-VVS1.

Down this alley, fluorescence matters just because the word is there and the Ginny is out of the bottle. As much harm this devil can do, gems are not even his main assignment - it just keeps giving me more research assignments.

With three posts and one chart to go, of course fluorescence will be under the magnifying glass henceforth courtesy of grapevine. This unless I have it all wrong and one-word grades are not faster to spread than common sense courtesy of Pricescope, of course.

 

[yowahking]

Again, hats off to Richard. While I don't create charts, my revelation was my first buying trip where I pride myself on shades of color. Got home and some stones just do not look the same in AZ as they do in Thailand. Some better, some worse. Your books, and others taught me why, just did not think about it till it happened.

 

[mogok]

----------------
I should have listened to my elders. They told me that a machine could never replace the human eye, that color preferences were an individual choice, that it was a reckless idea to suggest that one person's aesthetic would necessarily agree with another's----------------

Well once again I cannot agree more with Richard on this topic.

In the last few days I had the possibility to see side by side 2 beautiful stone: one 9 carat burmese spinel red with a tint of orange and a 10 carats songea orangy red stone that was heated using beryllium. The 2 stones had very close color and similar clarity. They were beautiful while I was looking at them under Bangkok north sky... The songea stone fluorescence was stronger and this fact, added to stone dichoism (quite visible for such a large piece), was giving the gem a slightly hazy or fuzzy looking. Very nice gem with its Halloween beryllium taste. In comparison the spinel had the same hue and saturation but was heaven of purity showing very sharp pavillon facet edges!
Glowing surnatural beauty or hot purity? Difficult choice.
Then in the afternoon I had to see a very fine Thai ruby with its typical black corners on the pavillon facet. Here no fluorescence to make the stone glow... but some pure and sharper red without brownish overtone... Different beauty, but stunning beauty!

Which stone was the best? The beautiful Thai ruby without fluorescence, the spinel with a medium strong one or the songea gem and its "Halloween" look?
Well it was difficult to say... Probably somewhere the spinel anyway as it was the cheaper gem for an equivalent "beauty of the day" but I guess that it would depend of our mood and taste. One is best today but tomorrow? Who knows...

But one thing was sounding clear: Fluorescence is not all... even if I have a real weakness for these candy-fluorescent spinels from Namya!

 

[bettyann]

Orange Red Thai Ruby

I recently saw a beautiful Thai ruby that is so orange that I would not have recognized it as a ruby.

It is a very lively stone, certed no heat. Looks somewhat padparadsha-like, but much more saturated than the padpadradsha of my mind's eye.

Betty

 

[rubydick]

Sounds like a beryllium-treated stone, probably from Songea. But impossible to say without actually seeing it. Who did the cert?

 

[bettyann]

Cert on orange ruby.

I did not see it, but will find out later this week and report.

Bettyann

 

[mogok]

Orange ruby? Sounds weird... I'm not really dogmatic but... thats unusual. I know that some labs in Bangkok used to say "red sapphire" for songea gemstones heated using beryllium additive, but "orange ruby" thats a new one!
"Orangy red" ruby is fine like "purplish red" but ruby without red sounds like an elephant without a trunk!

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/4/2004 8:43:37 PM mogok wrote:

Orange ruby? ... ruby without red sounds like an elephant without a trunk!

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Not a zoo vet, but here's one such elephant: "Faceted Natural Orange Ruby (AGTA)".

Maybe the name just got sucessfully coined ?

 

[bettyann]

Orange RED ruby

The ruby is not pure orange at all, but much more orangey than any other ruby I have ever seen. It is very beautiful. Unfortunately I have not seen as many gem rubies as I would like to and do not consider myself to any extent an expert.

Ever since I read Richard Hughes article, "Give me Burma, or give me death," I have REALLY looked down on Thai rubies. This ruby is an exception. ( Wonder if it has any fluorescence?) Hoping the owner will produce the cert.

Bettyann

 

[mogok]

Ana,
I think there is a problem with your link: I cannot access.
All the best,

 

[valeria101]

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On 10/5/2004 8:59:00 PM mogok wrote:

Ana,
I think there is a problem with your link

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Oups! ... LINK

Not that there is any shortage of expensive gems with the certs looking better then their indecisive selves. I found it surprising to read these exanples in the rather rarefied company of this www venue. There are a few more on the site with proper mention of the paper-versus-reality mix and match. (here's another labeled 'just over the finish line').

 

[mogok]

Hello Ana,
Thanks to repair the link,
Well I feel better: "Orange ruby" is just the commercial termonology Cherrypicked use to try to make their stones more selling. Its a kind of romancing the stone to make it more attractive.
The certificate from AGTA does not say "orange ruby" but "Color: Red", and "Result: Natural ruby".
I'm breathing again...

All the best,

 

[valeria101]

Lesson learned... what was I thinking

Thanks

 

[elmo]

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On 10/4/2004 1:58:34 PM mogok wrote:

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Very nice gem with its Halloween beryllium taste.
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That's great, Mogok...I love it. More than one meaning too - trick or treat!