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Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hearts

M

mian

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
9
Hi there,

This is the first time i'm shopping for a diamond, I've been reading up on the 4C, HCA, different retailers etc, and I'm kinda torn between these 4 options (1 from whiteflash and 3 from JA). They all seem to have pretty similar price and specs. Will be great if someone can offer up an advise which of the 4 is the most 'ideal'.

1. Between JA True Hearts vs Whiteflash ES, which has the more stringent criteria? (considering that True Hearts is JA's best cut, while ES is Whiteflash's 2nd best cut). Is a JA True Heart always better than a Whiteflash ES?

2. Is Diamond 1 (whiteflash) or Diamond 2/3/4 (James Allen) the most ideal?

Diamond 1: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2599718.htm
Grading: Whiteflash ES
color:I
clarity: VVS1
Cut: AGS Triple 0
depth: 61.8
table : 54.4
crown angle: 34.8
pavilion angle: 40.7
lower girdle facet length: 79
star facet length: 53
Measurement: 5.96x5.99x3.69
girdle: thin to medium
carat : 0.8
HCA: 1.2 EX ex-ex-ex-vg
$: $3,493.30


Diamond 2: http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1346480.asp
color:I
clarity: VS1
Cut: AGS Triple 0
depth: 61.6
table : 55
crown angle: 34.8
pavilion angle: 40.6
lower girdle facet length:
star facet length:
Measurement: 5.95*6.01*3.69
girdle: thin to medium
carat : 0.81
HCA: 0.8 EX ex-ex-ex-vg
$: $3,290


Diamond 3: http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1354960.asp
color:I
clarity: VS1
Cut: AGS Triple 0
depth: 61.2
table : 55.5
crown angle: 34.4
pavilion angle: 41
lower girdle facet length:
star facet length:
Measurement: 5.95*6.01*3.69
girdle: thin to medium
carat : 0.82
HCA: 6.02*6.07*3.70
$: $3,520


Diamond 4: http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1360533.asp
color:I
clarity: VS1
Cut: AGS Triple 0
depth: 61.7
table : 56.3
crown angle: 34.4
pavilion angle: 41
lower girdle facet length:
star facet length:
Measurement: 6.03*6.09*3.74
girdle: thin to slightly thick
carat : 0.84
HCA: 1.7 EX ex-vg-vg-vg
$: $3,610

Thanks so much for helping a stranger :)
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Whiteflash ES just missed ACA for some reason or another. I'd be curious to know what that reason is, so I'd probably ask them. A few months back I remember someone got a hearts image from WF for one of the ES stones... it wasn't posted on the website since they only post hearts images for ACA. Nevertheless, you can be sure the ES will be really well cut. This is also a VVS1 stone whereas the JAs are VS1.

Are you just buying the loose stone or will you have the vendor set it? If so, I'd probably pick the vendor that has the setting I like most.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Funny thing is that I had requested to put all 3 of those diamonds on hold from JamesAllen about a week and a half ago. They were the best I could find in that range. I've also posted those diamonds for some feedback from the PS community and most of the responses were that the 0.82 I VS1 is the most preferred. You can just check my topics and see what people have said about those JA diamonds. I ended up going with 0.79 I VS1 diamond from JA that is similar to the ones you posted and I just got it today and it's stunning. You can't go wrong with either the 0.81 or 0.82 from JA.

Here is the lab report for the Whiteflash diamond.
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104049674037-PLDQR.PDF
It looks very good from what I can tell.

The question is whether H&A is important to you. If it is, go with either of the 2 JA diamonds. If H&A doesn't matter, go with Whiteflash. You should talk to Whiteflash to see why it didn't make the ACA grade and ask for a H&A image to see if you like it. Like most people have said to me, you really can't go wrong with these diamonds, but I do understand the feeling of wanting the absolute best diamond whether it is 1% or 0.01% better than the others.

Here is the link to the thread for opinions on the JA diamonds.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/need-help-deciding-between-these-2-diamonds.157715/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/need-help-deciding-between-these-2-diamonds.157715/[/URL]
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

I has looked at the WF stone some myself, and it looks to be a beauty. You won't find anything not to like about it.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

do you plan on upgrading? both vendors also have different upgrade policies, so that is something to consider.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Cyclic|1301945712|2887608 said:
The question is whether H&A is important to you. If it is, go with either of the 2 JA diamonds. If H&A doesn't matter, go with Whiteflash. You should talk to Whiteflash to see why it didn't make the ACA grade and ask for a H&A image to see if you like it. Like most people have said to me, you really can't go wrong with these diamonds, but I do understand the feeling of wanting the absolute best diamond whether it is 1% or 0.01% better than the others.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to go off-topic but I was curious, when the ES stone is referred to as NOT being H&A, is that simply referring to not earning Whiteflash's H&A designation (ACA) or is it referring to something else? Because to me, the ES, even though no hearts image is provided, will be an H&A cut, just not an "ACA" which is purely a Whiteflash designation (whereas H&A is a more general cut designation that ACA's fall under). I'm just curious so that I have my terminology straight and understand the usage. (Thanks)
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

I've spoken to Whiteflash a few times when I was searching for diamonds and from what I understand with my chats, the ES diamonds just missed their "ideal" H&A selection by one reason or another. So I'd assume that diamonds in their ES don't have ideal H&A patterns. So there may be diamonds that do show H&A patterns within the ES category, but they may not be the best choices if H&A is what people are looking for in diamonds.

http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/grading-hearts-and-arrows-diamonds.htm
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

I bought an ES recently and was told the only thing that kept if from being an ACA is a real tiny scratch on the table that I can't even see under 10x. the hearts, arrows, etc are perfect. You can always ask them what knocked that stone out of ACA contention.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Hi kaufee1, yes i did actually ask them through online chat, and they said the hearts is slightly off...I will also be setting the stone as the center stone of a three-stone ring - so both vendors have this same setting.

Hi Cyclic - that's so interesting, i guess we must have very similar screening criteria and budget considerations, wanting the most ideal cut but willing to let go a bit in terms of color :) Thanks also for searching the ags lab report for me! Didn't know it's actually available on their website.

On whether a Whiteflash ES is a H&A, I've read on their website it actually is as well, but because it probably missed one of the 35 criterias which they set for ACA, that's why it's been downgraded.

Like you said it, I would really like the best cut out of the 3 :) - I've officially dropped diamond 4 out of the consideration since it's optical symmetry from the idealscope seems a little bit off. I also managed to get the hearts photo from the whiteflash consultant.

Hi slg47 - probably not upgrading at this point, but who knows in the future :). Yes, thanks for letting me know that whiteflash actually has a more flexible upgrading scheme.

To all, if possible, I've actually pulled all numbers side by side, as well as the crown photo, ideal scope, aset, hearts photo.

May I seek your help again to take a look at this side-by-side comparison, and let me know which has the best cut (overall considering optical symmetry, brilliance etc). is there a clear winner, or I can't go wrong with any. In your comparison, appreciate if you can also ignore the in-house grading system, since Whiteflash probably has very different sets of criteria from James Allen.

Please use this image link instead of the thumbnail below to see the comparison image (the forum keeps resizing it smaller):http://sites.google.com/site/wenmian02/home/compare.jpg

compare_1.jpg

Thanks so much!
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

they all look good unless you want to get nitpicky about hearts images. Is H&A important to you?

also I would not pay for VVS1 clarity, I would keep looking (but that is personal preference, some prefer VVS clarity)

what about this one? it is higher color, larger, and same price (you would have to ask for hearts image as it is not posted)

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/diamond-detail/?product_id=AGS-104049771012
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Hi sig47 - appreciate your reply :) i picked the 3 because they displayed a certain form of optical symmetry (H&A), HCA scores, AGS Triple 0, and are all very much similar in pricing.I saw the link you posted, but I'm concern there might be a bit of girdle painting as shown in the idealscope, which I'm trying to avoid.

Do you think that it doesn't actually matter much whether the choice is #1 or #3, and maybe the perception of mind-clean and the vendor (JA vs Whiteflash) in this case probably should matter more?

But if you were to choose either #1 and #3 based on the ASET + Idealscope + H&A, which would you actually go for?
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

are the settings totally identical? I would want to see the settings first.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

You brought out a good point there :) I would like this to be the center stone of a three-stone ring. Both vendors actually have the same style:

http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/three-stone/3-stone-diamond-engagement-ring-632.htm
PT950

http://www.jamesallen.com/design-your-three-stone-ring/platinum-three-stone-diamond-rings.html
PT900

The alloy composition aside (950 vs 900 - does that matter?), upfront, WF does seem to provide the flexibility of choosing my own sidestones, whereas JA seems to only have the option of prescribing sidestones of 1.0 ctw, which imo might be too much for a center of only 0.8 ctw.

Seems like Diamond 1 might be my preferred choice because of the flexibility in sidestones. Having said that, should I be concerned with the following which might prevent #1 from being mindclean?
1) only has a table size of 54.4%, when Blue Nile requires it's signature to be in the range of 55-57%
2) that Diamond 1 is a ES instead of a ACA. (however, my own observation seems to point to me that WF has a more stringent ACA than JA's TrueHearts, such that some of WF ES might still be a JA TrueHeart - not sure if that's actually true?)
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

I would rather have flexibility in choosing side stone size. Did you ask WF why that one is an ES instead of ACA? I would not worry about the table size, nothing wrong with 54%, and the hearts image looks pretty good. You have to decide what mind-clean means to you, though!

ETA have you considered other 3-stone settings? I rather like these

http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/three-stone/3-stone-trois-brillant-diamond-engagement-ring-1426.htm (comes with side stones)
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/three-stone/butterflies-3-stone-engagement-ring-230.htm (says need 1 ct center but you could ask about a smaller center?)
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/three-stone/3-stone-trellis-diamond-engagement-ring-1025.htm (love the trellis settings, I think they are much more fluid looking)
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

slg47|1302021190|2888305 said:
I would rather have flexibility in choosing side stone size. Did you ask WF why that one is an ES instead of ACA? I would not worry about the table size, nothing wrong with 54%, and the hearts image looks pretty good. You have to decide what mind-clean means to you, though!

ETA have you considered other 3-stone settings? I rather like these

http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/three-stone/3-stone-trois-brillant-diamond-engagement-ring-1426.htm (comes with side stones)
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/three-stone/butterflies-3-stone-engagement-ring-230.htm (says need 1 ct center but you could ask about a smaller center?)
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/three-stone/3-stone-trellis-diamond-engagement-ring-1025.htm (love the trellis settings, I think they are much more fluid looking)
Click to expand...

Good to know that 54% is not bad. I did ask the consultant why it didn't make ACA, and the reason was that the hearts are slightly off - not exactly visible to me though - could u tell?

Good suggestions on the settings :) I'm worried about whether the 3-prongs on the side will hold the diamond well enough, but having said that, the trellis is still a 4-prong side. Time to relook at the setting before i make the order confirmation !:)

THanks so much sig47 - you have been such a great help :)
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

some of the Vs look larger on one side than the other? 3-prong should be totally safe but I understand mind-clean (I tried on some settings where the side stones were tension set...it just scared me even though I know they were totally safe!)
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

I would agree that it would be far better to have the ring made so that appropriate size side stones can be ordered to go with the .8 center stone. I think less than .5 on each side would be fine.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

i asked JA if they can quote me on just the setting without sidestones, but they wouldnt. oh well...
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

I really don't think you'll see the minor differences with your eyes between these diamonds. It really comes down to what is "mind clean" to you. You have to decide what is the minimum of each category that you can live with. When I was doing my search, I was obsessing over everything. I just wanted everything to be perfect without needlessly paying for something I won't be able to see. Like for me, H&A matters, and the H&A image for the WS stone would bother me. However it might not bother you. So you have to decide whether something like that matters to you. In the end it's whatever you decide is acceptable.

Also you have to factor in your future plans. Will you upgrade in the future? What kind of upgrade do you expect to do? WS has a better upgrade policy, but if you plan on buying a diamond that will cost double of what you're paying now, the upgrade policy doesn't matter much. For example, I plan to get her a 1ct down the road and diamonds in that range will be double the amount of what I paid for the current diamond. So the difference in the upgrade policies don't matter much. Stuff like that should also be considered when choosing which stone to buy and where to buy it.

One more thing. Diamond #3 was the one I was going to buy till I found another diamond last minute. I wanted to stay in the 0.8 range, but found a great 0.79 diamond when I broadened my search criteria.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Interesting. Could you or anyone with an eye for H&A advise me on whether diAmond 1 or 3 has better H&A pattern. I got a feel that Cyclic might have spotted something un-ideal about Diamond 1, and if u can share your insights. Now that I'm more aware of what h&a is, it's starting to matter more :)
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

There is no hearts image posted on ES stones from WF, so it is impossible to compare. But what I will tell you with certainty is, you will not be able to look at either of these diamonds and be able to tell that one has less perfect hearts than the other. The WF stone is ideal in light performance, polish, and symmetry, so it is a very fine stone. I would choose it because I would want to choose my sidestones and I think smaller than .5 is better for sides next to a .80 stone.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Hi diamondseeker2006, I actually did manage to get hold of the image and posted it at http://sites.google.com/site/wenmian02/home/compare.jpg could u perhaps take a look at them and let me know how diamond 1 and 3 fares. Thanks so much!
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Did WF not request that you not post that ES hearts pic? I was under the impression that they would provide hearts photos of non-H&A stones when requested but asked that those customers not publicise those "hearts" pictures.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Mian, like slg said, the Vs in the H&A image of the WF stone are different sizes and thus not symmetrical. Though none of us would be able to see that with our eyes, it would be something that is not "mind clean" to me. However it might be "mind clean" to you. Also for me, I wouldn't go as high as VVS1, that extra cost could go to color or carat weight. Again, it's up to you whether you are fine with that fact.

All of the top quality stones will perform brilliantly. It then comes down to which setting you want from which vendor, what type of policies you like and whether you want to buy a stone and setting from the same vendor etc. Either #1 and #3 is going to be a good diamond and you won't be able to see the difference in specs.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

JA hearts also seem slightly uneven in Vs (but not sure if this is due to photography or stone?)--just depends on how nitpicky you want to get wrt H&A. I personally would pick the WF diamond even though it is a little overkill in clarity for me because they have the setting you want and the price is the same as JA.
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

mian|1302002642|2888120 said:
Hi kaufee1, yes i did actually ask them through online chat, and they said the hearts is slightly off.
Click to expand...
That is correct, it would not qualify as H&A by many peoples standards.
It has a small heart and the uniformity of the rest is not the best.
It was hard to see in the small picture so I enlarged it here:

largerimageHearts.jpg
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

Wow. It's amazing that you guys have such eye for details. I couldnt have seen it if u did'nt mention the issue with symmetry.

Now is it fair to say that on a made up grading scale for H&A, if diamond 1 was a 7 out of 10, diamond 3 would be a 9 out of 10?
 
Re: Your advise pls - Whiteflash ES or James Allen True Hear

mian|1302092972|2889074 said:
Wow. It's amazing that you guys have such eye for details. I couldnt have seen it if u did'nt mention the issue with symmetry.

Now is it fair to say that on a made up grading scale for H&A, if diamond 1 was a 7 out of 10, diamond 3 would be a 9 out of 10?
Click to expand...
H&A to many is pass/fail it is or it is isn't.
If it just misses it then it is near-h&a which is where I would put that one.
2 and 3 would qualify for h&a by anyone's standards that I have seen published.
 
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