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Would you give up privilege to promote equality for all?

Would you give up privilege to promote equality for all?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 26.3%
  • No

    Votes: 22 57.9%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 6 15.8%

  • Total voters
    38

moneymeister

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
1,585
In my understanding, white privilege is the way a white person doesn't encounter extra barriers due to society expectations or stereotypes or racist attitudes. A black person may be followed around a store where as a white person may just get a smile and nod hello. This is a real thing. I also believe black people get more than their share of scrutiny and traffic stops for being in a nice vehicle, in a nice neighbourhood.

Poor white people also get side eye. From society's endless memes about rednecks and good ole boys in Appalachia to a poor single Mom. Us and them.

Poverty equals invisibility. I think that's true for all races.

@SandyinAnaheim I see you, sister :)
 

Volute

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
75
This sounds strikingly like my story. Like you, pulled myself out of poverty and worked my butt off to put a roof over my head and educate myself.

I admire those of you who possess the altruistic intent to help others and am certain that society has always had lots of people with those good intents. But I have to say that when I needed it the most, as a homeless 15yo Catholic schoolgirl with a 9th grade education living in a parked car with only the clothing on her back, I never met a one. I went to the local Goodwill to try and obtain clothing for job interviews and was told I would have to pay for it. I went to MY church, which is tied to to the school I'd attended for 3 years, to ask for assistance and was told there was nothing they could do for me. I tried to get food stamps and wasn't old enough to get them without an adult, but I was old enough to starve to death. Not even my own family helped me. Due to those circumstances, and many hundreds of others over the ensuing years, any such feelings of altruism I may have had are long since dead. I fought tooth and nail for what I have and it would be nigh on impossible for me to gift the hard-won fruits of my labor and perseverance to someone else, regardless of their position in life. So I am with @moneymeister and @yssie on this one.

However, I've been thinking a lot about the subject of privilege since it came up in some heated threads last month and earlier this month. I know the definition of the word, but am having difficulty understanding who it applies to, outside of the obvious. Some posters have bandied the word about, aiming it like an insult at others (on the Karen thread and others). But I'm confused as to who has it, how do you know they have it, and are there things that mitigate it? All of my life, I thought some others had it, but I didn't think I did. Do we assume that all white people have it? Do no black people have it? Is it always bad to have it? Does anyone deserve to have it? Can you have it and be unaware that you have it? If you have it, can you lose it? If you weren't born with it, can you achieve it? I realize these are simplistic questions, but without knowing the particulars of a person's life, how they were raised, or what they've been through, how can we judge who should or shouldn't have it? Or am I missing some other element entirely?
@SandyinAnaheim, none of your posts suggest to me that you are lacking in altruism. Privilege is a complicated subject and I’m not sure if I could do justice to my thoughts here, but I just wanted to let you know that my first thought on reading this was that I find you compassionate and thoughtful.
 

SandyinAnaheim

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,043
Those are some great questions. I'm not sure I understand the concept as other people understand it. Maybe everyone has their own parameters of when they see and when they don't see privilege.

Privilege to me means a very sheltered upbringing, or being in a situation where you reliably expect to get away with stuff that other people wouldn't get away with. By this definition, very few black Americans have it. Their parents don't give them a sheltered upbringing because they're not wealthy enough to do so, or their parents are super aware of racism and don't want their child to grow up naive and hurt.

When I think of privilege, I immediately think of Prince Andrew and how, however disgraced, he has been shielded by his family from even having to testify before the FBI about what he knew about Jeffrey Epstein. I think of the white police officers who invaded Breonna Taylor's home, shot her, failed to get her medical attention, and marked "unforced entry" and "injury: none" on what was a pretty much blank report they filed.
Hmmmm, I think privilege means different things to different people as well. But when people use it as a weapon against others, I'm wondering what they're referring to. I agree with your understanding of the word, and this may be a tough one to nail down because what might be privilege to one person, may not be to another. For instance, I had a very sheltered upbringing because my mother was terrified of sexual predators, but much like @Matata, there was severe abuse in my home towards me at the same time. Does that negate my privilege? Did I have it to start with, being Hispanic and lower middle class? Did I have it because I went to private school, and then lose it when I was homeless? Do I have it now because I made a life for myself without relying on anyone else for support? I find this a very tricky concept and really want to understand how others know who has it. I tried hunting for some in-depth articles that might explain it properly in a psychological context, but only came up with fluff and opinionated nonsense.

In my understanding, white privilege is the way a white person doesn't encounter extra barriers due to society expectations or stereotypes or racist attitudes. A black person may be followed around a store where as a white person may just get a smile and nod hello. This is a real thing. I also believe black people get more than their share of scrutiny and traffic stops for being in a nice vehicle, in a nice neighbourhood.

Poor white people also get side eye. From society's endless memes about rednecks and good ole boys in Appalachia to a poor single Mom. Us and them.

Poverty equals invisibility. I think that's true for all races.

@SandyinAnaheim I see you, sister :)
Thank you! :razz: You just introduced another concept. Is white privilege different than privilege?

@SandyinAnaheim, none of your posts suggest to me that you are lacking in altruism. Privilege is a complicated subject and I’m not sure if I could do justice to my thoughts here, but I just wanted to let you know that my first thought on reading this was that I find you compassionate and thoughtful.
Thank you so much @Volute! That is sweet and I appreciate your saying that. But I think my altruism extends only as far as non-human species. :roll:
 

moneymeister

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
1,585
hank you! :razz: You just introduced another concept. Is white privilege different than privilege?
I really don't know. Is it but one kind? I suspect you and I have a little trauma from what we went through years ago. Having been invisible, I understand rejection and poverty. I understand abuse as well. Obviously it feels terrible. As many years ago by, and my life is comfortable and I don't have that struggle, I am still haunted by feeling potentially invisible, potentially fragile. Does this feel like it feels to be black? Would it have been worse for me if I were black? I don't know. Honest, I wish I did.

Looking at your experience as a Hispanic woman in crisis. You have lived through hard times. Words like privilege are almost a privilege. It assumes that skin color was in the mix of the experiences. I don't know. How do you feel? We're so complicated. We are survivors. I feel a kinship because I know that a life in trauma melts away the pretenses. In that I don't feel any privilege, I feel kinship and affection towards anyone that is a survivor. The skin color stuff feels pretty secondary to humanity, love and fortitude.
 

winnietucker

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,037
This sounds strikingly like my story. Like you, pulled myself out of poverty and worked my butt off to put a roof over my head and educate myself.

I admire those of you who possess the altruistic intent to help others and am certain that society has always had lots of people with those good intents. But I have to say that when I needed it the most, as a homeless 15yo Catholic schoolgirl with a 9th grade education living in a parked car with only the clothing on her back, I never met a one. I went to the local Goodwill to try and obtain clothing for job interviews and was told I would have to pay for it. I went to MY church, which is tied to to the school I'd attended for 3 years, to ask for assistance and was told there was nothing they could do for me. I tried to get food stamps and wasn't old enough to get them without an adult, but I was old enough to starve to death. Not even my own family helped me. Due to those circumstances, and many hundreds of others over the ensuing years, any such feelings of altruism I may have had are long since dead. I fought tooth and nail for what I have and it would be nigh on impossible for me to gift the hard-won fruits of my labor and perseverance to someone else, regardless of their position in life. So I am with @moneymeister and @yssie on this one.

However, I've been thinking a lot about the subject of privilege since it came up in some heated threads last month and earlier this month. I know the definition of the word, but am having difficulty understanding who it applies to, outside of the obvious. Some posters have bandied the word about, aiming it like an insult at others (on the Karen thread and others). But I'm confused as to who has it, how do you know they have it, and are there things that mitigate it? All of my life, I thought some others had it, but I didn't think I did. Do we assume that all white people have it? Do no black people have it? Is it always bad to have it? Does anyone deserve to have it? Can you have it and be unaware that you have it? If you have it, can you lose it? If you weren't born with it, can you achieve it? I realize these are simplistic questions, but without knowing the particulars of a person's life, how they were raised, or what they've been through, how can we judge who should or shouldn't have it? Or am I missing some other element entirely?
What you’ve overcome is amazing. Clearly that should be acknowledged because not everyone could do it.

To me privilege is any advantage one might have over the other. An example being people who can send their kids to college. Someone who has their parents pay for college doesn’t have to work multiple jobs to pay tuition/ books/ general being alive expenses and can spend more time focusing on their grades and doing internships. Their better grades and internship experience might help them land better jobs after graduation. It’s so difficult to work a ton to pay tuition. A full time job does not fully pay state tuition when you consider 1) chances are someone putting themselves through college isn’t likely to have a high paying job and 2) tuition is just part of it - there’s living expenses, textbooks (which have become very expensive thanks to the use of online codes), and supplies. Full stop. We can’t push education but then make it unobtainable. It’s ridiculous that entry level jobs want you to have a bachelors so they can pay you $15/ hour. Generational wealth is a huge privilege!

But back to this topic. I think privilege is also knowing people (through family connections) who can help a person get a better job that others couldn’t/ wouldn’t be offered. Like taking over a family business and automatically having that leg up on people who are building their businesses from the ground.

Privilege is not having someone automatically discredit your intelligence without ever meeting you for whatever reason (you’re brown, you have an ethic name, you’re from an area they look down on, etc). I had a lady comment on my ability to speak English in an interview once. She was just impressed I could speak English... I am not eloquent at all and it was clear what she meant. I only speak English. It was rude.

It’s not having to deal with undeserved sexist/ racist issues at work that take away from your performance (or perceived performance). My husband is dark skinned Filipino with a Latino sounding last name. A former boss of his made a lot of racist comments about Mexicans toward him. It made him so uncomfortable. The boss was kind of hostile as is and my husband tried to make up for it by working long hours/ weekends and would always come home upset. If he messed up they’d make him spend his personal time fixing those errors. But if someone else messed up they’d make my husband spend his personal time fixing those errors. He had a few 15+ hour work days because of that. We think they thought he was Mexican. He finally stopped trying to prove himself, called it quits, and just found a new job. My husband isn’t bad at what he does. He’s moved up very quickly at his current job and has gotten a raise and a promotion/ year so there are no doubts about his intelligence or dedication, but you can’t put someone under a magnifying glass while constantly criticizing them and making racist remarks to then and expect them to flourish.

Obviously there’s lots more but at this point my post is too long.
 

moneymeister

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
1,585
It’s not having to deal with undeserved sexist/ racist issues at work that take away from your performance (or perceived performance). My husband is dark skinned Filipino with a Latino sounding last name. A former boss of his made a lot of racist comments about Mexicans toward him. It made him so uncomfortable. The boss was kind of hostile as is and my husband tried to make up for it by working long hours/ weekends and would always come home upset. If he messed up they’d make him spend his personal time fixing those errors. But if someone else messed up they’d make my husband spend his personal time fixing those errors. He had a few 15+ hour work days because of that. We think they thought he was Mexican. He finally stopped trying to prove himself, called it quits, and just found a new job. My husband isn’t bad at what he does. He’s moved up very quickly at his current job and has gotten a raise and a promotion/ year so there are no doubts about his intelligence or dedication, but you can’t put someone under a magnifying glass while constantly criticizing them and making racist remarks to then and expect them to flourish.
Oh @winnietucker thank you for sharing that experience. It is heart breaking and wrong. Those people who tear down others like that deserve a special place in hell. I want that to stop and I would fight to stop that. No, those types of experiences should not have happened, and it would definitely increase the burden of making a way in life.
 
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winnietucker

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,037
Oh @winnietucker thank you for sharing that experience. It is heart breaking and wrong. Those people who tear down others like that deserve a special place in hell. I want that to stop and I would fight to stop that. No, those types of experiences have not happened, and it would definitely increase the burden of making a way in life.
It seems these experiences aren’t uncommon. People are finally opening up about their experiences and it’s crazy.
 

SandyinAnaheim

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,043
I really don't know. Is it but one kind? I suspect you and I have a little trauma from what we went through years ago. Having been invisible, I understand rejection and poverty. I understand abuse as well. Obviously it feels terrible. As many years ago by, and my life is comfortable and I don't have that struggle, I am still haunted by feeling potentially invisible, potentially fragile. Does this feel like it feels to be black? Would it have been worse for me if I were black? I don't know. Honest, I wish I did.

Looking at your experience as a Hispanic woman in crisis. You have lived through hard times. Words like privilege are almost a privilege. It assumes that skin color was in the mix of the experiences. I don't know. How do you feel? We're so complicated. We are survivors. I feel a kinship because I know that a life in trauma melts away the pretenses. In that I don't feel any privilege, I feel kinship and affection towards anyone that is a survivor. The skin color stuff feels pretty secondary to humanity, love and fortitude.
Yes, trauma indeed...but then again, I know how much worse it could've been. We made it out alive, and that which doesn't kill you....

I suspect there has to be more than one kind of privilege. There's the entitlement I think is being referred to as white privilege that you mentioned before, but then there's the privilege of being born into money (which can be any race/color) like Prince Albert, Dumbo, the kids of professional athletes and superstars, etc. Then there's self-generated privilege by being the best at something, like say Elon Musk. I don't think they're all the same.

Like you, I felt invisible and powerless as a child and teen, but with every hurdle and obstacle I overcame and survived, regardless of the damage, I viewed myself as stronger, smarter, resilient and more confident. I'm sorry you're still haunted by some of those feelings. I wish I could help you eradicate them.

How do I feel? Well, I remember the first instance(s) of racism towards me. I was one of 3 Hispanic children in a white Baptist private school. There were no black, American Indian or any other children of color there. I was the only one on my school bus. There was a small group of teenage boys that would call me "chink", "wetback" or "spic". I had long hair past my waist and my mother would tie it up into a very high tight pony that really exaggerated my eye shape. They would pull my hair, call me names and all the other kids on the bus would laugh. I was VERY sheltered and simply had no response to those kids. The bus driver watched and let it happen. As I grew up and became more sure of my own thoughts, my Dad and I would GO ROUNDS because he was extremely racist towards blacks and I would argue that he, as a minority, should feel kinship with another minority, not hatred! No amount of logic or talk could sway his ignorance. I remembered how I felt back on the bus and really couldn't understand how he could do to others what had been done to me, AND to him! As I got older and learned more about Hispanic cultures, and various other cultures around the world, I came to realize that many peoples have a need to feel superiority over other cultures. The Argentinians think they're better than every other Hispanic culture, the Cubans think they're better than the Columbians and Puerto Ricans, the Nicaraguans think they're better than the El Salvadorians, the Ecuadorians think they're better than the Chileans, the Lebanese think they're better than everyone in their region and the entire region hates the Palestinians. It happens in Asian cultures as well, I just don't know any of those specifics.

As a young legal secretary, I remember the day I found out that another girl hired the same week as I was, with less experience and same educational level, was making $3 more per hour than I was. The difference? My last name and ability to speak other languages. I remember my best friend at work, Yolanda, a super-funny intelligent black girl that I loved dearly and was very close to. One day she was invited to lunch by her sister and some cousins and I happened to be at the same lunch counter ordering my lunch. I said hello and turned back around. A little later, one of them asked Yolanda if I was her "pink-toe" friend and they all laughed. She said we got along and she liked me, but laughed right along with them in calling me racist slurs. Our friendship ended shortly thereafter. I've been on the receiving end of racism, sexism and most recently, ageism. What can you do? It's part of life in this culture. I feel powerless to stop it. The only thing I can do is not engage in it and not perpetuate it.
 

doberman

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Messages
1,835
What you’ve overcome is amazing. Clearly that should be acknowledged because not everyone could do it.

To me privilege is any advantage one might have over the other. An example being people who can send their kids to college. Someone who has their parents pay for college doesn’t have to work multiple jobs to pay tuition/ books/ general being alive expenses and can spend more time focusing on their grades and doing internships. Their better grades and internship experience might help them land better jobs after graduation. It’s so difficult to work a ton to pay tuition. A full time job does not fully pay state tuition when you consider 1) chances are someone putting themselves through college isn’t likely to have a high paying job and 2) tuition is just part of it - there’s living expenses, textbooks (which have become very expensive thanks to the use of online codes), and supplies. Full stop. We can’t push education but then make it unobtainable. It’s ridiculous that entry level jobs want you to have a bachelors so they can pay you $15/ hour. Generational wealth is a huge privilege!

But back to this topic. I think privilege is also knowing people (through family connections) who can help a person get a better job that others couldn’t/ wouldn’t be offered. Like taking over a family business and automatically having that leg up on people who are building their businesses from the ground.

Privilege is not having someone automatically discredit your intelligence without ever meeting you for whatever reason (you’re brown, you have an ethic name, you’re from an area they look down on, etc). I had a lady comment on my ability to speak English in an interview once. She was just impressed I could speak English... I am not eloquent at all and it was clear what she meant. I only speak English. It was rude.

It’s not having to deal with undeserved sexist/ racist issues at work that take away from your performance (or perceived performance). My husband is dark skinned Filipino with a Latino sounding last name. A former boss of his made a lot of racist comments about Mexicans toward him. It made him so uncomfortable. The boss was kind of hostile as is and my husband tried to make up for it by working long hours/ weekends and would always come home upset. If he messed up they’d make him spend his personal time fixing those errors. But if someone else messed up they’d make my husband spend his personal time fixing those errors. He had a few 15+ hour work days because of that. We think they thought he was Mexican. He finally stopped trying to prove himself, called it quits, and just found a new job. My husband isn’t bad at what he does. He’s moved up very quickly at his current job and has gotten a raise and a promotion/ year so there are no doubts about his intelligence or dedication, but you can’t put someone under a magnifying glass while constantly criticizing them and making racist remarks to then and expect them to flourish.

Obviously there’s lots more but at this point my post is too long.
How on earth can someone mistake a Filipino for a Mexican? What an idiot. I worked in health care and we had a ton of Filipino nurses. They look nothing like my brother-in-law who's Mexican. Ignorant people are prejudiced people.
 

winnietucker

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,037
How on earth can someone mistake a Filipino for a Mexican? What an idiot. I worked in health care and we had a ton of Filipino nurses. They look nothing like my brother-in-law who's Mexican. Ignorant people are prejudiced people.
I think it’s the last name. Some people don’t know what either of us are (and have asked).
 

MelloYello8

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2018
Messages
283
How on earth can someone mistake a Filipino for a Mexican? What an idiot. I worked in health care and we had a ton of Filipino nurses. They look nothing like my brother-in-law who's Mexican. Ignorant people are prejudiced people.
Lol pretty easily. Happens a lot, and by Mexicans. Filipinos in scrubs may make up a lot of the nursing population but they don’t make up the entirety of the Filipino population.
 

SandyinAnaheim

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
1,043
What you’ve overcome is amazing. Clearly that should be acknowledged because not everyone could do it.

To me privilege is any advantage one might have over the other. An example being people who can send their kids to college. Someone who has their parents pay for college doesn’t have to work multiple jobs to pay tuition/ books/ general being alive expenses and can spend more time focusing on their grades and doing internships. Their better grades and internship experience might help them land better jobs after graduation. It’s so difficult to work a ton to pay tuition. A full time job does not fully pay state tuition when you consider 1) chances are someone putting themselves through college isn’t likely to have a high paying job and 2) tuition is just part of it - there’s living expenses, textbooks (which have become very expensive thanks to the use of online codes), and supplies. Full stop. We can’t push education but then make it unobtainable. It’s ridiculous that entry level jobs want you to have a bachelors so they can pay you $15/ hour. Generational wealth is a huge privilege!

But back to this topic. I think privilege is also knowing people (through family connections) who can help a person get a better job that others couldn’t/ wouldn’t be offered. Like taking over a family business and automatically having that leg up on people who are building their businesses from the ground.

Privilege is not having someone automatically discredit your intelligence without ever meeting you for whatever reason (you’re brown, you have an ethic name, you’re from an area they look down on, etc). I had a lady comment on my ability to speak English in an interview once. She was just impressed I could speak English... I am not eloquent at all and it was clear what she meant. I only speak English. It was rude.

It’s not having to deal with undeserved sexist/ racist issues at work that take away from your performance (or perceived performance). My husband is dark skinned Filipino with a Latino sounding last name. A former boss of his made a lot of racist comments about Mexicans toward him. It made him so uncomfortable. The boss was kind of hostile as is and my husband tried to make up for it by working long hours/ weekends and would always come home upset. If he messed up they’d make him spend his personal time fixing those errors. But if someone else messed up they’d make my husband spend his personal time fixing those errors. He had a few 15+ hour work days because of that. We think they thought he was Mexican. He finally stopped trying to prove himself, called it quits, and just found a new job. My husband isn’t bad at what he does. He’s moved up very quickly at his current job and has gotten a raise and a promotion/ year so there are no doubts about his intelligence or dedication, but you can’t put someone under a magnifying glass while constantly criticizing them and making racist remarks to then and expect them to flourish.

Obviously there’s lots more but at this point my post is too long.
First, I want to say your post is NOT TOO LONG!! Personally, I really enjoy reading robust posts full of experience and outlook. Second, I thank you for your kind comment, but I wonder if maybe I did have privilege because I was able to overcome? I'm not sure though because imo, I simply refused to be satisfied making $3.35/hr doing menial labor. I knew I could do more, it was simply a matter of putting myself into a position where I COULD do more and prove it. And that's what I did, I made small incremental machinations to put myself into positions where I could make more money until I was in demand for what I knew, not for what I did. I believed in myself. Not everyone does though and I don't think I know why I did. Is that privilege?

That woman at your interview was very rude to you (no need to call her lady, I reserve that term for those who prove they are). Did you end up having to work with her?

Your poor husband....I feel bad for him. I wish he would have moved to another job sooner! There is just NO reason for anyone to have to tolerate that crap! He had the makings of a legal claim against his supervisor/company for that abusive treatment, had he wished to. I think that sort of behavior HAS to be nipped in the bud. Some people will abuse those they think they can abuse and get away with it. That's just one of thousands of reasons why humans aren't my favorite creatures....

ETA: Actually, in retrospect, I do think I know why I believed in myself. I grew up with my dad telling me girls can't do this, girls can't do that, and I f*g hated that! Anything he said I couldn't do I would do better than others. It started off being silly stupid things, but later on became real and more concrete things. He had the nerve to tell me girls couldn't understand numbers and could never be good at math, at least never as good as he was. I overcame that by the time I was 13, by a test he gave us both.
 
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winnietucker

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,037
First, I want to say your post is NOT TOO LONG!! Personally, I really enjoy reading robust posts full of experience and outlook. Second, I thank you for your kind comment, but I wonder if maybe I did have privilege because I was able to overcome? I'm not sure though because imo, I simply refused to be satisfied making $3.35/hr doing menial labor. I knew I could do more, it was simply a matter of putting myself into a position where I COULD do more and prove it. And that's what I did, I made small incremental machinations to put myself into positions where I could make more money until I was in demand for what I knew, not for what I did. I believed in myself. Not everyone does though and I don't think I know why I did. Is that privilege?

That woman at your interview was very rude to you (no need to call her lady, I reserve that term for those who prove they are). Did you end up having to work with her?

Your poor husband....I feel bad for him. I wish he would have moved to another job sooner! There is just NO reason for anyone to have to tolerate that crap! He had the makings of a legal claim against his supervisor/company for that abusive treatment, had he wished to. I think that sort of behavior HAS to be nipped in the bud. Some people will abuse those they think they can abuse and get away with it. That's just one of thousands of reasons why humans aren't my favorite creatures....

ETA: Actually, in retrospect, I do think I know why I believed in myself. I grew up with my dad telling me girls can't do this, girls can't do that, and I f*g hated that! Anything he said I couldn't do I would do better than others. It started off being silly stupid things, but later on became real and more concrete things. He had the nerve to tell me girls couldn't understand numbers and could never be good at math, at least never as good as he was. I overcame that by the time I was 13, by a test he gave us both.
Whatever you did to get to where you are now is admirable. It’s tough to overcome hard situations and I hope you are giving yourself credit for that! I’m sorry about your father. I don’t understand how someone could treat anyone like that... let alone their own kid.

I didn’t take the job. I was a little surprised they offered it to me given how poorly that went. But without a doubt, that would have been awful. I changed industries entirely.

As for my husband - the boss was the owner of the company (small business). My husband was just happy to be out of there. He also said his industry is small enough that he doesn’t want to step on anyone’s toes so he never called the guy out (which I wanted to do many times) or do anything that could come back negatively on him.
 

smitcompton

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
2,638
Hi,

People do not choose their parents. Thus, if you are lucky you have parents that fill many of the values of the society you are born into. You re privileged. If you are unlucky you have parents who are poor, perhaps drug addicted, and uneducated, and, in our society non-white. You are not privileged. Both those children born into privilege and those born into the not privileged camp have done nothing either positive or negative to deserve merit on their own behalf. So, we must have equality of opportunity in our society as each person should compete on an equal footing. I don't know if this is possible as support for the children of privilege far exceeds anything those of the non- privilege can provide. Outcomes have to be better for non-priv, as it is just luck who you parents are.

Now, the Corporation is a different story. The worker produces the goods, what ever they are.. Leadership is important, of course. But for the executives to pay themselves so much more than the worker is a fairly new idea. Executives, IMO, must relinquish their right to these out of the world paychecks and return to the workers, not the shareholders. that portion of their pay that is in excess. Workers deserve decent pay.

Billionaires are different than Co executives. They do need to be taxed. Money to be used for quality of opportunity in the schools.

Money is wasted in our society and is not always the answer to fix things. Defending your personal fiefdom also should be held to a minimum. Change is hard.

Annette
 
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Bayek

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
7,060

this speaks totally to the topic here.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
7,065

this speaks totally to the topic here.
Not just schools. You can see this at any city planning meeting across the country when low income housing building permits are being discussed. Not necessarily just a minority issue either but a "poor" issue.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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20,748

this speaks totally to the topic here.
I hadn't seen or heard of this before, and I live in MD.

I very much hope the resdistribution is planned for incoming students, and the intent is not to yank a small number of students away from their friends, their siblings, their teachers, their support networks, their class plans and goals, their routines... Throw them into unfamiliar environs in the name of politics... At a developmental age that is exceptionally challenging to navigate under the most stable of circumstances...

It's sure not reading that way, though. So yeah, I'll go ahead and state that this will not go well. And I'd most definitely be vehemently opposed to it too. For reasons that are entirely about the kids, and have nothing to do with race, income, or any other "ism". Edit - That said, some of the reasoning given in that article is disgustingly transparently classist - an extra two miles on a bus isn't going to do anyone any harm and everyone knows it.


Edit - Quote from this article:
American schools "remain heavily segregated by race and ethnicity."
It said that less than 13% of White students attend a school where a majority of students are Black, while nearly 70% of Black children attend such schools.
Per the US 2020 Census, the United States populace is 76% white and 13% black. OF COURSE the majority of black students attend schools where the majority of students of white. Where's that eye-rolling emoticon?
 
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redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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7,065
I hadn't seen or heard of this before, and I live in MD.

I very much hope the resdistribution is planned for incoming students, and the intent is not to yank a small number of students away from their friends, their siblings, their teachers, their support networks, their class plans and goals, their routines... Throw them into unfamiliar environs in the name of politics... At a developmental age that is exceptionally challenging to navigate under the most stable of circumstances...

It's sure not reading that way, though. So yeah, I'll go ahead and state that this will not go well. And I'd most definitely be vehemently opposed to it too. For reasons that are entirely about the kids, and have nothing to do with race, income, or any other "ism".
When it doesn't happen organically but is government forced there will only be problems.
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
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May 11, 2013
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7,060
kids are resilient they can handle a longer bus ride. it is not in the name of politics it is rectifying a wrong. my kids went to all kinds of schools and it was always the black kids bused in in Raleigh.

my kids went to a high rated public high school with kids from everywhere and they survived. my kids moved around as we moved around for careers, they lived and made new friends. IBM = I've Been Moved

you sound as though you think kids are little snowflakes that will melt, they won't, i've been through this whole thing


I hadn't seen or heard of this before, and I live in MD.

what it is sayingI very much hope the resdistribution is planned for incoming students, and the intent is not to yank a small number of students away from their friends, their siblings, their teachers, their support networks, their class plans and goals, their routines... Throw them into unfamiliar environs in the name of politics... At a developmental age that is exceptionally challenging to navigate under the most stable of circumstances...

It's sure not reading that way, though. So yeah, I'll go ahead and state that this will not go well. And I'd most definitely be vehemently opposed to it too. For reasons that are entirely about the kids, and have nothing to do with race, income, or any other "ism". Edit - That said, some of the reasoning given in that article is disgustingly transparently classist - an extra two miles on a bus isn't going to do anyone any harm and everyone knows it.


Edit - Quote from this article:

Per the US 2020 Census, the United States populace is 76% white and 13% black. OF COURSE the majority of black students attend schools where the majority of students of white. Where's that eye-rolling emoticon?
 

MelloYello8

Shiny_Rock
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Messages
283
Integration doesn’t happen organically. It would take many more parents who have a choice to intentionally settle down in more socio-economically and racially diverse areas. Even the most well meaning people won’t do that if they thought it out their own children at a disadvantage compared to their peers in more elite public schools. I don’t agree with that thinking but I can sympathize as a mother who wants the best for her kid. For me, I value diversity of experience because I spent 13 years in a very diverse school district and when I got to my overpriced private university I realized how sheltered my classmates were by comparison.

 

redwood66

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Integration doesn’t happen organically. It would take many more parents who have a choice to intentionally settle down in more socio-economically and racially diverse areas. Even the most well meaning people won’t do that if they thought it out their own children at a disadvantage compared to their peers in more elite public schools. I don’t agree with that thinking but I can sympathize as a mother who wants the best for her kid. For me, I value diversity of experience because I spent 13 years in a very diverse school district and when I got to my overpriced private university I realized how sheltered my classmates were by comparison.

Do you mean government should mandate it then?
 

Volute

Rough_Rock
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@yssie, my Census knowledge is fairly outdated so I hope others will chime in, but the data accounts for racial distribution and is fairly granular, though analysis via Census tracts does have its limitations. At any rate, the methodology is fairly transparent. For those who are interested:

Actually what I’m taking away from the data is that segregation has increased despite the growing diversity of the US population.

@redwood66 has an interesting point about organic vs nonorganic desegregation. Imo nothing about segregation is organic given the extraordinary financial incentives for its beneficiaries throughout history, so I don’t know why it would make sense to desegregate organically. But I do agree that top down action can be a very blunt instrument indeed.

Anecdotally, an old professor of mine had attended one of the first few desegregated schools post Brown v. Board of Education as a child. She’s never forgotten the adults throwing things, spitting at kids escorted through the protest lines. Depressingly, she doesn’t believe the narratives around the issues have changed much fundamentally, but more in intensity. One kind of organic change I suppose. I think we must do better. I hope we are.

On a personal note, I live in a neighborhood that was racially restricted until the late 1940s by law. When the covenant expired, neighborhood associations formed to renew them, attempting to raise $3000 for the cause. Inflation calculators aren’t great but that’s around 30 million in current USD. To keep non-white people out. Backlash against government interference? Personally I would call that elite capture. And if anything, it’s worse today. People (some on PS even) keep telling me my city is dying, or that city is dying, but I see no end to the growth of income inequality everywhere. I don’t think we’re going to get out of this organically.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
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@yssie, my Census knowledge is fairly outdated so I hope others will chime in, but the data accounts for racial distribution and is fairly granular, though analysis via Census tracts does have its limitations. At any rate, the methodology is fairly transparent. For those who are interested:

Actually what I’m taking away from the data is that segregation has increased despite the growing diversity of the US population.

@redwood66 has an interesting point about organic vs nonorganic desegregation. Imo nothing about segregation is organic given the extraordinary financial incentives for its beneficiaries throughout history, so I don’t know why it would make sense to desegregate organically. But I do agree that top down action can be a very blunt instrument indeed.

Anecdotally, an old professor of mine had attended one of the first few desegregated schools post Brown v. Board of Education as a child. She’s never forgotten the adults throwing things, spitting at kids escorted through the protest lines. Depressingly, she doesn’t believe the narratives around the issues have changed much fundamentally, but more in intensity. One kind of organic change I suppose. I think we must do better. I hope we are.

On a personal note, I live in a neighborhood that was racially restricted until the late 1940s by law. When the covenant expired, neighborhood associations formed to renew them, attempting to raise $3000 for the cause. Inflation calculators aren’t great but that’s around 30 million in current USD. To keep non-white people out. Backlash against government interference? Personally I would call that elite capture. And if anything, it’s worse today. People (some on PS even) keep telling me my city is dying, or that city is dying, but I see no end to the growth of income inequality everywhere. I don’t think we’re going to get out of this organically.
Thank you for your thoughtful post. IMO organically is the only way as I am vehemently against government mandating anything with regard to where children go to school other than current school districting based on property taxes and location. I would like school choice available but I don't think anyone will ever make that happen.

Edit - if states or local school districts have input from students and parents and want to change their way of districting then by all means do it. But make them all part of the process. It should not be a federal mandate.
 
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MelloYello8

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
283
Thank you for your thoughtful post. IMO organically is the only way as I am vehemently against government mandating anything with regard to where children go to school other than current school districting based on property taxes and location. I would like school choice available but I don't think anyone will ever make that happen.
I don’t know if government regulation is the answer either. It’s just unfortunate that so many people base their housing decisions on average test scores, which tend to be higher in wealthier and less diverse schools, rather than the individual opportunities for their children which may not be easily quantifiable. However there won’t be any organic desegregation while standardized tests and acceptance rate into top colleges are key factors in school rankings.
 
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