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Would you buy HRD Antwerp certified?

Sapphiredreams

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2016
Messages
8
Hey all

Sorry if my questions are a bit novice but I figured it's better to just ask...

I've been interested in purchasing my first solitaire for a while now but only started researching in the past few months.

I've only been sent a few reports, some of them GIA but mostly HRD Antwerp.

The one that stood out the most was a princess cut with the below specifications:

3.00 carat weight, no fluorescence. G and vs1. polish and symmetry are both very good.

measurements are: 8.29 x 8.10 x 5.79 mm
girdle: thin 2.0% polished (I only know that thicker girdles can make diamonds appear smaller?)
Culet: pointed (not exactly sure what it means- is it large or not? I'm guessing it would be preferable for the culet to be on the smaller side?)
total depth: 71.5%
table width: 78% (from my research this depth and table width both seem desirable?)
crown height: 6.5% (I don't understand this very much...but thinking not very desirable?)
pavillion depth: 63%

there seem to be 2 little clouds in the report... one in the very center and the other a bit more to the side (I wish I hadn't seen these prior to actually seeing the diamond in person because it might actually be eye clean?)

should i maybe keep looking? and should i maybe only look at GIA certified diamonds? what do you think?

thank you so much for your time! and if you have any resource suggestions for me please feel free to let me know. i know many terms are so confusing to me!
 

Snowdrop13

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
1,910
Hi, I'm sure most people on here would say stick with GIA and AGS, however HRD are better known in Europe, I think. I have diamond studs graded by HRD (I bought them in the early days of online sales from a London based firm and at that time HRD were the most widely available certified stones). I definitely read some research that showed HRD in "third position" in terms of lab consistency, unfortunately I can't find it at present, will post it if I find it!

To my untutored eye my stones look white and clean and sparkly (G VS2, top level cut), but then I'm not exactly an expert!

Good luck with your search.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Yes. HRD with an ASET (for a princess) would be fine with me.
 

Kim123

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
16
Hello,

Yes HRD certificates are also well accepted. Especially in Europe.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,262
The overwhelming likelihood is that the stone would not grade close to the same way if GIA did the report. For that reason, check out the prices of GIA graded stones of similar size, color, and clarity. You should be looking at at least 30% less to buy a stone like this without the GIA report. But even 30% might not cover the disparity.
Especially on the stone of the size and caliber, your safest bet is to stick with the GIA graded diamond.
 

Sapphiredreams

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2016
Messages
8
Hey all, thank you so much for your comments and your input.

I ended up going for a GIA graded princess cut 3.1 carat, vs1 & I :) i don't have its measurements on me at the moment but according to my research it does look its size and it's not too deep which as a personal preference I don't like. My ring should be here in around 10 days and I'm so excited I can't wait!

Thank you for your help!
 

Kim123

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
16
Congrats!

I have personally seen many GIA and HRD stones (in Europe, Antwerp) and do not have the experience that HRD would grade the stone much higher than GIA. There are actually quite many threads about it in this forum, if you type HRD in the search engine. One of the discussions even concluded that there might be problem with HRD stones in the USA but in Europe (HRD Antwerp lab) there are no such problems.
And ofcourse marketing. Even politics.
Why still today in Antwerp there is no GIA lab? (Only pick up point). And why HRD haven't done better marketing in USA? But they have been successful in Europe, Russia and Asia.

Ofcourse there are some differences but you have to seperate every C and compare these 2 labs in point of that. In some points GiA is more strict and in some points HRD.

And evrybody makes mistakes. I once had GIA stone (it was somewhere 2014/2015) ca 0.30ct G color and I was using it as masterstone one day to compare my uncertified stones from the same size. I was wondering how come all my stones are better color than G but then very quickly realised it is not quite G color it is more as low H. Well, happens even in the best families :angel:
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,563
Kim123|1461833478|4024517 said:
Congrats!

I have personally seen many GIA and HRD stones (in Europe, Antwerp) and do not have the experience that HRD would grade the stone much higher than GIA. There are actually quite many threads about it in this forum, if you type HRD in the search engine. One of the discussions even concluded that there might be problem with HRD stones in the USA but in Europe (HRD Antwerp lab) there are no such problems.
And ofcourse marketing. Even politics.
Why still today in Antwerp there is no GIA lab? (Only pick up point). And why HRD haven't done better marketing in USA? But they have been successful in Europe, Russia and Asia.

Ofcourse there are some differences but you have to seperate every C and compare these 2 labs in point of that. In some points GiA is more strict and in some points HRD.

And evrybody makes mistakes. I once had GIA stone (it was somewhere 2014/2015) ca 0.30ct G color and I was using it as masterstone one day to compare my uncertified stones from the same size. I was wondering how come all my stones are better color than G but then very quickly realised it is not quite G color it is more as low H. Well, happens even in the best families :angel:
Kim's post is spot on. Globalization has created more parity between many major labs, and caused the downfall of others.

Still, there are logical reasons for the average USA shopper to stay with GIA graded options. GIA reports are far more abundant and accepted in this country. If you're in Europe there's greater frequency and acceptance of diamonds graded by HRD, which makes that report a practical choice on that side of the Atlantic.

In that sense, HRD is like Renault or Peugeot, widely sold in Europe but rarely seen here. GIA is like Ford, having a strong presence and reputation worldwide.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,262
With regard to the sentiment that HRD is acceptable in Europe...
How many 2ct+ Diamonds are sold in Europe ( not including the UK) as compared to the US, and Asia?
From my experience, the answer is a tiny percentage.
Others may have more detailed experience with the European market, but my experience is that there's little demand for "major league" diamonds in Western Europe.
If I am correct about the demographics, HRD being more acceptable in Europe is not relevant to anyone buying a 2ct+ diamond- either here in the US, or in Europe.
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,563
Rockdiamond|1461861189|4024643 said:
Others may have more detailed experience with the European market, but my experience is that there's little demand for "major league" diamonds in Western Europe. If I am correct about the demographics, HRD being more acceptable in Europe is not relevant to anyone buying a 2ct+ diamond- either here in the US, or in Europe.
There are thousands of 2ct+ diamonds with HRD reports being bought and sold. Not just in Europe, but in China/India where they have both a presence and policed standards. 2 carats is nothing. For middle and far-east trading HRD is issuing reports for diamonds up to 20 carats. Would that be my choice? No. I'd go GIA. But this is not about me. And it's not about you. It's about globalization and diversity.

I'll support your position in the USA market. But I've regularly been in overseas trade centers since 2009, including Surat, HK, Sh, Bei, Ant & London. GIA is still the authority, but high-value diamonds are being reliably bought and sold with other solutions. Not just 2 carats. Think 10-20 carats.

We tend to disconnect on this topic, I know. And you did stipulate to your experience, above. That causes me to wonder, with respect: Have you personally been boots-down in European, Chinese and Indian diamond centers - and participated in active trading in the last 7 years?
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,262
Hi John,
I agree that this discussion is not about what I prefer when I buy- or what you prefer.
However as a buyer of many diamonds on a weekly basis I do believe my experience -and even my preference are an important addition to this discussion.
I have not been "boots down" in India, however we have massive relationships with major Indian Diamond cutters.
The concerns we're associated with are using GIA exclusively- or at least that's what they show us.
In terms of Western Europe, outside of the UK- we do have a nice audience there, although I have not been to Antwerp buying for at least 10 years. We have sold diamonds in pretty much every county in Western Europe, but the numbers are very limited compared to the US, and UK
Is it your experience that there's great consumer demand for 1ct+ diamonds in Europe outside the UK?

As far as Asian markets, my experience would be limited to English speaking clients, primarily in Singapore, and Hong Kong. There's a good knowledge of GIA and it's benefits from my experience these buyers- but they are all English speaking.
I know you have done a lot of work in China- I will gladly accept your take on it. If you're saying HRD goes over well in mainland China, I will take your word on it.
But truly the bottom line for readers of this forum is that we agree- GIA is the preferred report. If I was spending more any sort of substantial money on a diamond, I'd insist on GIA, which is what I'd advise anyone reading this.

ETA- I would also limit my comments to those considering purchase outside the 10-20carat range. We do not have calls for stones in that size range- although if we do, I'd also suggest ( maybe even more strongly) to stick with GIA
 

John Pollard

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,563
Thanks David. Common ground.

Your instinct is correct. GIA-centric lists are published to the USA. There's little confidence in foreign reports here. This is totally logical, given the historic overgrading we battled. Asia-Pacific markets are younger and grading standards have always been policed. Those retailers never needed to fight EGL. They have no idea how things can be twisted.

Rockdiamond said:
Is it your experience that there's great consumer demand for 1ct+ diamonds in Europe outside the UK?
No. That area of the world remains a <1ct market, with some outliers. The high-value demand and growth in HRD/IGI market share has evolved from middle and far-east. Think Saudi princes and new Chinese millionaires. If you take the 10-20 carat category I mentioned; a glance of Rapnet worldwide shows 90 rounds with IGI reports, 150 with HRD reports and 478 with GIA reports... I'm certain some are dual-certed.
But truly the bottom line for readers of this forum is that we agree- GIA is the preferred report. If I was spending more any sort of substantial money on a diamond, I'd insist on GIA, which is what I'd advise anyone reading this.
Thumbs-up.
 

cinnamonstick

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jun 14, 2009
Messages
572
Sapphiredreams|1461825851|4024509 said:
Hey all, thank you so much for your comments and your input.

I ended up going for a GIA graded princess cut 3.1 carat, vs1 & I :) i don't have its measurements on me at the moment but according to my research it does look its size and it's not too deep which as a personal preference I don't like. My ring should be here in around 10 days and I'm so excited I can't wait!

Thank you for your help!
Sounds stunning! Post pics please!
 
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