Wool Over My Eyes??

[baguettel]

I have been to three different jewellers (one of which is a diamond wholesaler) and every time they show me a loose diamond - it is in a piece of white tissue paper with the clarity and colour written in ink on the front of the paper. These stones that they show me (which are quite large on the richter scale) do not have certificates with the stone (apparently there are GIA certs available but do not come with the stone until you purchase). I''ve been told by other jewellers that these loose diamonds NORMALLY arrive from the supplier in a sealed plastic pouch with the GIA certificate.

One stone I am considering may have an ICI certificate (haven''t got all the details yet). Some experts'' opinions are not so good on ICI? Any comments?

Does anyone out there know anything about how loose diamonds are packaged? You have to be so careful nowadays especially with such a LARGE purchase!
Any advice would be helpful!

 

[moremoremore]

Well, I think it's common to have the little buggers folded away in paper...but that's not the problem...the problem is the ICI cert? Not even IGI? Never heard of em. Also, I"m sorry- but I can't see the cert, I'm not buying....even vendors who get stones in on memo get the certs to go with them..or at least can get copies of the cert. MOVE ON to another vendor.

 

[valeria101]

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On 6/15/2004 10:22:47 AM baguettel wrote:



I've been told by other jewelers that these loose diamonds NORMALLY arrive from the supplier in a sealed plastic pouch with the GIA certificate.

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This is new ! Ok, perhaps an option, but not standard practice at all...

I thought HRD makes such sealed cases as sort of proof that the gem matches the cert (and there is a long trail of abuse using this type of presentation that prevents the buyer test the stone independently

). One can well get a large stone in silk paper with a faxed cert. I can understand why the sellers would not have the original cert until there is more certainty about the sale, but a copy should be easy to get.

What you want is just the certainly that whatever the seller says about the stone (the grades written in ink on the brifke) is backed by a lab, am I right? If so, a copy of the cert and a quick check of the serial number with the lab make a good, costless, step forward. The word of an independent appraiser would make the process bullet proof. It is not unusual (although not default, general practice) for the seller to accept your entering the store with some "help" to advise on the identity of the stone (whether it matches the cert) - especially in the case of a large purchase. This my be a matter of ego (seller insisting to have your trust, regardless) but may work, if you ask.

Just my 0.2, of course.

 

[pqcollectibles]

When I visited diamond brokers and jewelers, they showed me diamonds that were wrapped in folded tissue. The folded tissue packets were stored in little plastic envelopes. Usually, the plastic envelope and the folded tissue both had stickers on the outside with the color, clarity, and carat weight written in pen, along with the Cert Lab name and Cert number. If I wanted to see the original Cert, and the shop owned the diamond, it was no problem. They would just go into the office and pull the original Cert out for me. If the diamond was "On Memo", shops usually had a copy of the Cert that I could look at. If the shop happened to not have a copy, they almost always volunteered to get a copy from the wholesaler that they could fax or email to me later.

The owner of the diamond tends to hold the original copy of the Cert until someone decides to buy the diamond. If the original Cert were to get lost, the diamond would have to be resubmitted to a grading Lab for a new Cert and that costs $$$$. Many Price Scope Vendors list a $200 fee in their Upgrade Policy if the original Cert is not returned with the diamond being traded in.

The most reputable grading Labs in the US are GIA and AGS. EGL USA has made great strides in the last year or so to tighten their grading standards. Accurately graded EGL USA diamonds can be "bargains" for buyers as EGL Certed diamonds tend to trade at a discount compared to GIA and AGS. HRD is very reputable in the European market.

 

[baguettel]

Now that I think of it they may have been saying IGI, not ICI. One jeweller is going to get a faxed copy of the certificate, but obtained the loose stone without it at the start. The stone that I am going to view may be EGL or IGI, I don't think it's GIA. I have called many local appraisers and they DO NOT go to someone else's store to appraise stones. I do not think that the jeweller would let me leave the store with a $20,000 diamond???!! With all the horror stories out there, it's hard NOT to be suspicious. It's not the jeweller, they seem allright, it's the little man they are obtaining the stone from as I do not know where or who he is!

 

[pqcollectibles]

If you want to take the diamond to an appraiser, make your purchase contingent on a satisfactory, Independent Appraisal. If you are not satisfied with the result of the appraisal, you can get a full refund.

Don't just take the diamond to any old jeweler either. You want to find a local, Independent Appraiser who does not sell diamonds and jewelry. A jeweler might give you a fair opinion, but the appraisal result could be suspect. A jeweler appears to have a conflict of interest in that they might want to sell you a diamond. An Independent Appraiser does not sell diamonds and jewelery. They have no vested interest in whether you decide to keep the diamond or not. There's a list of Price Scope approved appraisers from all across the US. You might click the link at the top of the page and see if there's a PS approve appraiser near you.

 

[baguettel]

Thank you for your advice. I am in Canada so I can't use the Pricescope list. I will look in the yellow pages and see what I can find.

 

[chialea]

search around a bit -- you didn't say where you are, but there certainly a lot of Canadians hanging about, and they have reccomendations on places to go.

some have even bought from pricescope vendors and had the diamond shipped across the border. apparently it is really a pain to ship an unset diamond, but pretty easy for a ring.

 

[baguettel]

I am in the Vancouver area. I just looked up the yellow pages and there are only a few independent appraisers and quite far away from where I am located. If anyone has any suggestions out there in Canuckland?

 

[pqcollectibles]

USA Certed is in Canada and they are very reputable. Dunno what part of Canada you live in, but many people have had good experience working the folks at USA Certed. Also, you don't have to worry about shipping into Canada from the States. Just a thought for you.

 

[baguettel]

Well, I just went and viewed the stone. It is a VS2 J colour (was told it was H, but turned out to be J). It looked "okay" - could see a small inclusion through the 10X loupe (which I was told you're not supposed to see in VS2...). The stats showed ideal to premium cut, allow the depth was very shallow. Anyway, asked if I could get an independent appraisal and was told yes, after I buy it. When I asked if they could put in writing if the appraisal didn't match up with the EGL (yes, could be another potential problem) then could I have a full refund. THE ANSWER WAS NO AND THAT THEY WOULD GET AN APPRAISAL FROM SOMEONE THEY KNOW. They said that whatever the EGL cert. said was gospel (and of course, the stone wasn't labelled and was in tissue paper). It is a really good deal, but I conclude that I might have to RUN FOR THE HILLS! Any opinions, as I am very new at this.

 

[baguettel]

Hi Rough Rock,

Thank you very much for the info. When looking at U.S. diamond prices on the net, I find them to be a lot higher with the excise tax and then the two taxes and not to mention the exchange. I will check out that website though and see if they have what I am looking for. I would be very interested to know who your designer was (you can private message me if you want).

Look forward to hearing from you!

 

[canuk-gal]

Hey there:

A fellow PS member gave me the name of an appraiser in Vancouver, who did an independant appraisal of the stone he bought from Britton Jewellers, also in Vancouver.
The appraisers' name is: Michael L. Toole, Fellow of the Gemmological Association of GB, Suite 621-470 Granville St. Van. B.C.

Have you checked out Vancouver Jewellers, who has a B & M establishment in West Van., as well as an Internet diamond broker business (Davidson Jewellers/Diamonds)? Fairly good website. anyway

cheers

Sharon

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 6/15/2004 2:27:33 PM baguettel wrote:

Well, I just went and viewed the stone. It is a VS2 J colour (was told it was H, but turned out to be J). It looked 'okay' - could see a small inclusion through the 10X loupe (which I was told you're not supposed to see in VS2...). The stats showed ideal to premium cut, allow the depth was very shallow. Anyway, asked if I could get an independent appraisal and was told yes, after I buy it. When I asked if they could put in writing if the appraisal didn't match up with the EGL (yes, could be another potential problem) then could I have a full refund. THE ANSWER WAS NO AND THAT THEY WOULD GET AN APPRAISAL FROM SOMEONE THEY KNOW. They said that whatever the EGL cert. said was gospel (and of course, the stone wasn't labelled and was in tissue paper). It is a really good deal, but I conclude that I might have to RUN FOR THE HILLS! Any opinions, as I am very new at this.----------------

VS means Very Slightly Included graded with a 10X loupe. So it is quite possible that you might see small inclusions with magnification while the diamond will appear eye clean in normal viewing. Diamonds are graded for clarity in the "face up" position, thru the table. Sometimes, larger carat weight VS diamonds will have eye visible inclusions that can be seen thru the pavillion (side view).

An EGL Cert is by no means gospel. A diamond could be graded I color by GIA and H color by AGS, or visa versa. An independent appraiser could even disagree with the grading lab by a color grade. EGL does have a reputation for being on the lenient side, so that J, VS2 might well be graded by another lab as K, SI1, depending on the inclusions you saw. Hard to say without physically seeing the diamond, but both color and clarity impact price.

If the Vendor won't allow you a reasonable return period to get the diamond professionally appraised, I, personally would look for another Vendor. Just my humble opinion. There are plenty of Vendors who will give you a grace period to learn if the diamond is as graded and appropriately priced. There are lots of Vendors who have life-time upgrade policies. You trade-in this diamond, and full amount you paid is credited toward the purchase of another diamond. You don't have to spend double or triple the original purchase price amount either. Just buy a more expensive diamond and you've upgraded.

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[baguettel]

PQ,

Thanks for your opinion - I totally agree. I cannot do business with people like that. My search continues...