with college tuitions on the rise every year...

[ksinger]

College is, and always will be, worth the investment in my eyes. No one can convince me otherwise.

But if it saddles a person with crushing debt that can't be discharged with the job you "trained" for (say Karl's social worker for example - the cost of that masters is the same as the cost of the masters in a field that might be more lucrative), I'm at a loss as to how anyone could call that a good "investment", at least from a purely economic standpoint.

What a pity that you feel "at a loss." Hope your Saturday gets better!

As I stated previously, no one can convince me otherwise. I don't have the same background as most on this forum do so it is difficult to explain/quantify what being a college graduate means to someone with my background/upbringing. That is why I included the words "worth the investment
to me. I don't expect anyone else to feel the same, understand, or agree. But if someone asks whether it is my opinion that college is worth it, I will always answer yes.

I honestly wasn't trying to start anything by replying, nor was I trying to convince you of anything, although you certainly seem to think that a snarky "have an nice day" type comment is warranted. Whatever.

 

[ksinger]

I have, not only a fine arts degree, but a performing arts degree. Did I think I was really going to be able to make a living as an actor? Um, yes-not very many people get famous, but there are commericals, films, and stage work a-plenty. And a large majority of my classmates are making ends meet as actors, so its very possible. Personally, I chose to go back and get a Masters in Arts Administration and now I manage an arts center. There's no denying I am lucky to have a steady job in my fine arts field- but what strikes me most about this thread is the implied definition of 'success' or that a return on a investment must be monetary.

I don't make a huge amount of money- I run a small non profit arts center!-but I LOVE what I do, I BELIEVE in what I do, and going to work every day makes me HAPPY. Would it have been easier if what I loved to do paid me hundreds of thousands of dollars? Yes. But I get to go to work every day and be a part of something that's important to me and important to my community.

My SO is in the same boat-even together we make around or just below the average housedold income in the states. But we live simply, within our means, and we are happy.

What good is making a lot of money if you are miserable doing it?

All that said, I do feel that the quest for a college degree has narrowed our field of vision too much, that trade schools and apprenticeships are really great options that aren't utilized enough. And nothing prepares you for working in the field better than working in the field!

However you prepare for your career, I do think that it is money and time well spent if it helps you lead a life you are content to lead.

Actually, I'm sure there are quite a few in here who are sad about how college has turned into glorified vo-tech. I know I am. And I have absolutely nothing against the fine arts. If I had felt I could have made a living at it, I might have tried myself. I know I'd give my left arm to have the money to do that TODAY, but that's another story. Back when I was going to college, getting a fine art degree I couldn't use might not have been such a big deal (and to be honest, I don't use the degree I DO have!), but nowadays, as others have noted, you have to choose very carefully, because you are going to pay dearly for the first shot, and likely won't be able to swing a re-do. I just know that I was not ready mentally for mortgage level debt at 24, I can't imagine incurring it so young and having to struggle out from under it. It's hard to be happy with the awareness of debt or if you're not making ENOUGH money too.

I'm glad you've been able to make a decent living at least near what you went to school for. I have so many friends with degrees in either vocal performance or general music, who are working as engineers and IT guys. I know they'd like to be doing music (and do on the side when they can), but it's hard to do when you have a family.....

 

[suchende]

Depends on what you study.

FI and I both went to medical school. We are both still training so we only earn about $80k each we hope to be earning a lot more in a few more years (ok, 3 years for me, 14 months for him where's the jealous icon?)

that is good money compared to my wife's niece whom only makes about $50k while in training.

Whether it's better or not depends a lot on COL and tax rate. I would rather make $50k in Madison, WI than $80k in NYC.

 

[megumic]

College is, and always will be, worth the investment in my eyes. No one can convince me otherwise.

I agree. I'll qualify my agreement by saying that everyone who goes to college should be considerate of the expenses involved and whether an equal education is available for a smaller price tag.

Right now my parents are getting divorced. My father has a masters, my mom has no college education. While she worked for more than 30 years at a well-known corporation (as more than an administrative individual), I have a lot of respect for her and what she achieved. That said, she has zero earning power without a college degree. Compared to what my father can earn, he'll be sitting pretty for the rest of his life and she will struggle to make ends meet. For this very basic real-life common scenario, I sincerely think college education is very important.

 

[fieryred33143]

Sorry ksinger. I recognize that was an unnecessary comment.

 

[rosetta]

Depends on what you study.

FI and I both went to medical school. We are both still training so we only earn about $80k each we hope to be earning a lot more in a few more years (ok, 3 years for me, 14 months for him where's the jealous icon?)

that is good money compared to my wife's niece whom only makes about $50k while in training.

It's certainly enough to live on! My friends in the private sector earn a lot more, but we are government employees in the UK. I will never earn as much here as I could in the US but I believe in healthcare for all, even with the numerous problems with the NHS.

 

[ksinger]

College is, and always will be, worth the investment in my eyes. No one can convince me otherwise.

I agree. I'll qualify my agreement by saying that everyone who goes to college should be considerate of the expenses involved and whether an equal education is available for a smaller price tag.

Right now my parents are getting divorced. My father has a masters, my mom has no college education. While she worked for more than 30 years at a well-known corporation (as more than an administrative individual), I have a lot of respect for her and what she achieved. That said, she has zero earning power without a college degree. Compared to what my father can earn, he'll be sitting pretty for the rest of his life and she will struggle to make ends meet. For this very basic real-life common scenario, I sincerely think college education is very important.

And isn't that just sad, and kind of wrong? She may have even had oodles of formal training for her job, and certainly OTJ experience, yet she is deemed without worth after 30 years of proving it, simply because she doesn't have that piece of paper. And therein lies a problem with what education is supposed to do, and a question about whether that credential alone should be the thing to indicate whether you have worth (economic) or not. Of course, after 30 years her "worth" is down simply because she is considered "old".

Messed up system for sure....

 

[Tacori E-ring]

This is interesting. I can make more with my BFA (almost double) than I will with my MA. Many may see my return to grad school as a waste, but I don't. I think you gotta love what you do. I did not like my previous career. It didn't fulfill me like I needed. When you work for money that's all you ever will have. Sometimes that is not enough.

 

[zoebartlett]

This is an interesting thread. I firmly believe in getting as much education as one can but I know that others may feel differently. So my short answer is, yes, I think college is worth it. I hate knowing that I'll be paying off my student loans from my masters for years and years, but it will happen. I'm much happier with my degree and I earn more money than I would have if I didn't have it.

 

[megumic]

College is, and always will be, worth the investment in my eyes. No one can convince me otherwise.

I agree. I'll qualify my agreement by saying that everyone who goes to college should be considerate of the expenses involved and whether an equal education is available for a smaller price tag.

Right now my parents are getting divorced. My father has a masters, my mom has no college education. While she worked for more than 30 years at a well-known corporation (as more than an administrative individual), I have a lot of respect for her and what she achieved. That said, she has zero earning power without a college degree. Compared to what my father can earn, he'll be sitting pretty for the rest of his life and she will struggle to make ends meet. For this very basic real-life common scenario, I sincerely think college education is very important.

And isn't that just sad, and kind of wrong? She may have even had oodles of formal training for her job, and certainly OTJ experience, yet she is deemed without worth after 30 years of proving it, simply because she doesn't have that piece of paper. And therein lies a problem with what education is supposed to do, and a question about whether that credential alone should be the thing to indicate whether you have worth (economic) or not. Of course, after 30 years her "worth" is down simply because she is considered "old".

Messed up system for sure....

In this economy, why would anyone hire her over someone with the same experience AND a college degree or possibly more education?? It's a perfect case on point of why a degree is valuable and important.

 

[ksinger]

College is, and always will be, worth the investment in my eyes. No one can convince me otherwise.

I agree. I'll qualify my agreement by saying that everyone who goes to college should be considerate of the expenses involved and whether an equal education is available for a smaller price tag.

Right now my parents are getting divorced. My father has a masters, my mom has no college education. While she worked for more than 30 years at a well-known corporation (as more than an administrative individual), I have a lot of respect for her and what she achieved. That said, she has zero earning power without a college degree. Compared to what my father can earn, he'll be sitting pretty for the rest of his life and she will struggle to make ends meet. For this very basic real-life common scenario, I sincerely think college education is very important.

And isn't that just sad, and kind of wrong? She may have even had oodles of formal training for her job, and certainly OTJ experience, yet she is deemed without worth after 30 years of proving it, simply because she doesn't have that piece of paper. And therein lies a problem with what education is supposed to do, and a question about whether that credential alone should be the thing to indicate whether you have worth (economic) or not. Of course, after 30 years her "worth" is down simply because she is considered "old".

Messed up system for sure....

In this economy, why would anyone hire her over someone with the same experience AND a college degree or possibly more education?? It's a perfect case on point of why a degree is valuable and important.

I'm not arguing that it isn't important, and I don't know what your mother does for a living. I just foresee the day when Wal-Mart greeter requires a degree, not because it is required to do the job, but just because times are so gawd-awful tight that employers can demand it. And I keep wondering (I know, it's a bit off topic) what those people who aren't suited to college are supposed to do going forward into this brave new economy of ours...

For the record, I AM degreed, if I had kids they would be expected to go for a minimum of a bachelors. However, I would think long and hard before I encouraged my child (and maybe myself) to take on massive debt for a particular school, if something cheaper was available. Depending on many factors of course, I'm not convinced that a so-called "better" school confers that much more earning power over a lifetime, and most of my real education has been obtained after college, without a carrot/stick through my own choice and effort. Sadly, I know plenty of people who have pretty much chosen to never pick up a truly challenging or substantive book since they got that degree, and I have little respect for that.

And actually, this thread is more interesting to me because no one even discusses the relevance or quality of the actual "education" received, just potential earning power because of a piece of paper. I can't say my view is much different, sadly. But it IS interesting, and for me, points to the "vo-techization" (yes, I just invented that word...I can do that: I have a degree!) of college.

 

[suchende]

I'm not arguing that it isn't important, and I don't know what your mother does for a living. I just foresee the day when Wal-Mart greeter requires a degree, not because it is required to do the job, but just because times are so gawd-awful tight that employers can demand it. And I keep wondering (I know, it's a bit off topic) what those people who aren't suited to college are supposed to do going forward into this brave new economy of ours...

For the record, I AM degreed, if I had kids they would be expected to go for a minimum of a bachelors. However, I would think long and hard before I encouraged my child (and maybe myself) to take on massive debt for a particular school, if something cheaper was available. Depending on many factors of course, I'm not convinced that a so-called "better" school confers that much more earning power over a lifetime, and most of my real education has been obtained after college, without a carrot/stick through my own choice and effort. Sadly, I know plenty of people who have pretty much chosen to never pick up a truly challenging or substantive book since they got that degree, and I have little respect for that.

And actually, this thread is more interesting to me because no one even discusses the relevance or quality of the actual "education" received, just potential earning power because of a piece of paper. I can't say my view is much different, sadly. But it IS interesting, and for me, points to the "vo-techization" (yes, I just invented that word...I can do that: I have a degree!) of college.

The focus on the education rather than career prospects is what I resent most about my undergrad experience, frankly. I felt that my high school career counselor, undergrad career advisor and professors were at best out of touch and at word dishonest about the realities of a liberal arts education. All I ever heard was "you can do anything with a liberal arts degree!" but then when I headed over to the career services office, most employers were only accepting resumes from certain majors. The quality of my education is cold comfort if it qualifies me for Starbucks.

 

[katamari]

The focus on the education rather than career prospects is what I resent most about my undergrad experience, frankly.

This is honestly heartbreaking.

 

[katamari]

The data suggest that the mean lifetime earning advantages for college graduates is between $500,000 and $1,000,000 depending on data and methodology, which is still considerably more than cost. This gap is also growing, so, from an investment perspective, it still seems to be "worth it."

With Peter Theil making the media circuit and being in the biz myself, I have been thinking a lot about the notion of the education bubble. I think that opting out of education is not a solution for a large number of individuals. In fact, it appears that, since colleges continue to raise prices and have record enrollments and applications, we are nowhere near a price that will push students away, unfortunately.

I do believe that using a loans-based financing structure is not sustainable and is a mess waiting to happen. But, I also don't think it will be expressed in admissions. I think it will be more similar to the housing market where more and more people will default on their education loans. It does make me queasy to know how much debt students are leaving school with, but I don't think the better alternative is to not go. And, especially not to drop out once they already have loans.

What I cannot believe is that people still continue going to public 4-year unis in droves. Publics cost almost as much as privates these days. Combined with better job prospects, ridiculously lower class size, a 4-year time-to-degree, higher matriculation, and (if you consider lost income with later graduation as part of cost) a lower overall cost, I just don't see how any traditional college student is choosing public these days unless they are entering in honors programs.

---

And, since I cannot edit my previous post, re: liberal arts educations. I have not heard anything about employers only accepting resumes from people with specific degrees unless it is actually a profession seeking someone with a matching professional degree. I find that, if anything, students only struggle finding work with liberal arts degrees when they don't properly highlight (or search based on) the skills they have due to their liberal arts education.

 

[suchende]

When I was looking for my first job out of college, IIRC only two of the dozens of employers recruiting from my Big 10 would accept resumes from liberal arts degrees. An Econ or Business major fared much better.

What amazes me is how few high school seniors are open to spending a year or two at community college. I was lucky enough to take night classes at the local community college in high school and it gave me a big head start once I got to college. As far as private schools go, I suppose the job prospects are better for the more prestigious schools, but not for the go-to private schools my high school classmates chose.

 

[katamari]

When I was looking for my first job out of college, IIRC only two of the dozens of employers recruiting from my Big 10 would accept resumes from liberal arts degrees. An Econ or Business major fared much better.

What amazes me is how few high school seniors are open to spending a year or two at community college. I was lucky enough to take night classes at the local community college in high school and it gave me a big head start once I got to college. As far as private schools go, I suppose the job prospects are better for the more prestigious schools, but not for the go-to private schools my high school classmates chose.

That is terrible (especially since econ is a social science/LA major). I graduated from a Big 10 myself (grad school) and our school would not invite an employer to a non-specific job fair who had such a rule. (DH is a mathematician and he went to tons of engineering/CS job fairs, but these were sponsored by the major, not the uni). Of course, we are also clearly the best school in the Big 10 That, though, is a failure on the part of your advising system, not the job market. My Big 10, my public UG alma matter, and my current uni, give great advise to our LA grads and get them jobs. It doesn't make it suck any less or any less wrong, of course.

I am with you on the community college front, particularly for students who aren't sure what they want to major in or even go to college. It seems like that path should be advised more in high school (or if it is, more students should listen). The public 4-year, because it really becomes the public 6-year, is an increasingly bad idea.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

I am extremely satisfied with the education I received at my state school. It was a large school with a huge freshman class (close to 10,000?), but the large number of freshman made it possible for the university to offer a wider variety of classes than would have been available to me at a smaller school. There were more professors, meaning more fields of study and more opportunities for learning new skills. I could choose from several elective courses in the sciences, including many specialized courses. I attended graduate school at a private school (free tuition + stipend), and I do not think the undergraduates there received a "better" or "worse" education than mine, just different. They did have smaller classes, but they also didn't have as many choices as I had in undergrad. I think I could have had an even better undergraduate education if I had taken advantage of the opportunities that were available. At the time, I didn't know I would be going into research or education though. I pursued a B.S. in a topic that I found extremely interesting (molecular and cell biology) with little thought about career possibilities. If I had known then what I know now, I may have taken advantage of some of the undergraduate research opportunities.

I see both side of the coin. An education for education's sake is a noble pursuit, but in reality, gone are the days where only gentlemen landowners or the truly genius attended college to broaden their minds. The value of an education for education's sake must be balanced with financial prudence and the necessity of supporting yourself after college.

 

[suchende]

When I was looking for my first job out of college, IIRC only two of the dozens of employers recruiting from my Big 10 would accept resumes from liberal arts degrees. An Econ or Business major fared much better.

What amazes me is how few high school seniors are open to spending a year or two at community college. I was lucky enough to take night classes at the local community college in high school and it gave me a big head start once I got to college. As far as private schools go, I suppose the job prospects are better for the more prestigious schools, but not for the go-to private schools my high school classmates chose.

That is terrible (especially since econ is a social science/LA major). I graduated from a Big 10 myself (grad school) and our school would not invite an employer to a non-specific job fair who had such a rule. (DH is a mathematician and he went to tons of engineering/CS job fairs, but these were sponsored by the major, not the uni). Of course, we are also clearly the best school in the Big 10 That, though, is a failure on the part of your advising system, not the job market. My Big 10, my public UG alma matter, and my current uni, give great advise to our LA grads and get them jobs. It doesn't make it suck any less or any less wrong, of course.

I am with you on the community college front, particularly for students who aren't sure what they want to major in or even go to college. It seems like that path should be advised more in high school (or if it is, more students should listen). The public 4-year, because it really becomes the public 6-year, is an increasingly bad idea.

I totally agree that it was my UG's failure to let employers "pre select" like that. It worked out fine for me, but this was 2006 and jobs were practically growing on trees, I had 2 $50k job offers with my Language degree. But I chose my law school based largely on the OCS's reputation for being student advocates (incidentally, another Big Ten )

 

[rosetta]

Depends on what you study.

FI and I both went to medical school. We are both still training so we only earn about $80k each we hope to be earning a lot more in a few more years (ok, 3 years for me, 14 months for him where's the jealous icon?)

that is good money compared to my wife's niece whom only makes about $50k while in training.

Whether it's better or not depends a lot on COL and tax rate. I would rather make $50k in Madison, WI than $80k in NYC.

Well, in living in London costs a lot, my salary doesn't go that far, and we won't have cash to burn until our salaries triple.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I am extremely satisfied with the education I received at my state school.

Me too! I am surprised people hate state schools. I am also going to a state school for grad school and it is ranked #8 for my program in the *entire* country. Sounds good to me! Great program and CHEAP.

 

[elrohwen]

I am extremely satisfied with the education I received at my state school.

Me too! I am surprised people hate state schools. I am also going to a state school for grad school and it is ranked #8 for my program in the *entire* country. Sounds good to me! Great program and CHEAP.

Plenty of state schools are ranked very highly for engineering as well. Virginia Tech was my second choice school (thank goodness I didn't go there, since I would've been graduating the year of the shooting since it's a 5 year program). Anyway, UT-Austin is one of the top grad schools for chemical engineering and I know a ton of people who have gone there. I can see why going to a state school and coasting along for undergrad might not be a good thing, but it's not good to coast along at the bottom of the class at a small private school either.

 

[zoebartlett]

Suchende -- I completely agree with your post about going to career services and what advice they had to offer in college. I was there all the time, it felt like, and as many times as I told the guy I worked with that I didn't want to go into sales, I kept getting recruitment interviews for those positions. It was so frustrating. If I wasn't going into accounting, business, or sales, it was pointless to work with career services. I didn't go to a business school. My school was/is a small, private school that had plenty of liberal arts and social services majors, yet all career services helped place people in were jobs that had a different focus.

 

[missy]

College is, and always will be, worth the investment in my eyes. No one can convince me otherwise.

But if it saddles a person with crushing debt that can't be discharged with the job you "trained" for (say Karl's social worker for example - the cost of that masters is the same as the cost of the masters in a field that might be more lucrative), I'm at a loss as to how anyone could call that a good "investment", at least from a purely economic standpoint.

I haven't read the whole thread through yet but just want to add that college (and further education) is worth the investment for sure if we look at it in other terms vs a purely economic one. I just wrote about this in another thread- when we were little my dad (and my mom) always emphasized how important education is and not just for how far it can get you career wise (though it does help for most). Education is something that no one can ever take from you. What you gain from a good education is priceless and what it can teach you invaluable. Of course so is life experience and a good balance of the two is critical for success in life for most people. I am not speaking for everyone please don't misunderstand. I am just speaking from my own personal experience. I do not think that formal education is for everyone but I do think it is important for most.

I also think it is a shame at how much education can cost now. And I do think it is important to go to a school where you can get the most from your education. I visited a few colleges when I was deciding which one to go to and I chose one that I knew would be right for me. I liked the small student/faculty ratio there was/is at my college and the personal attention I got there. I thrive in that type of environment and would have been overwhelmed at a larger school with less personal attention. The quality of the education you obtain is critical to your success so it is not just a matter of getting an education but of getting the right one for you.

 

[zoebartlett]

I went to a small, private, Catholic college in a large city. At the time I entered college ('92), my state schools were known as party schools, and they were big. I wasn't interested in either of those things, so I chose to go to a smaller school that had more of what I needed (individual attention from professors). I did go to my state school for my grad. degree and I'm glad I did. It made me wonder if I had made the right choice for my undergrad after all.

 

[kittybean]

I think a lot depends on the major choice, though. I've always been amazed at one of my BF's who majored in Spanish; what did she think she was going to do with THAT? Ultimately, she had to go back to school and get an MBA (she had to really scramble to get accepted to a grad program).

I am really suprised that your friend had a hard time getting into a graduate program with a Spanish degree. I have a BA in Spanish, and being fluent in Spanish has been an incredible asset in my career. I had no issues getting into law school, and I now work in a position where I use Spanish every single day--reading, writing, and speaking--and I likely wouldn't have gotten this job without that skill set. While I was waiting for my bar results, I did some work as a Spanish interpreter. I am very happy with my choice of major, and I think it gave me a valuable real-life skill as well as an education in literature, which something I really love.

 

[SapphireLover]

Hey, come to the UK - even with the student fees going up it's still a bargain!

I graduated with a £1k overdraft and having spent a total of £10k on maintenance (tuition was free).

UK education is not cheap. Most university fees are going to be £9000 a year in September 2012. That means a three year degree will be £27000 ($44000) and five year degrees $73000. There will be no scholarships, everybody will pay on graduating. Those on modest incomes will pay off for the rest of their lives and will pay off more than double, up to triple their debt, yet never clear it. They will still pay for books and accommodation, which is going up to cover costs that unis are losing in funding. DH has taught inner city high school and the majority of his low income kids who should go to Uni are now not going as they can't afford living costs or face the thought of the debt. Education is the key indicator of escaping poverty and attaining good health and these children will no longer be able to access it.

Rosetta- $80,000 a year is about £50k, about the top 10% of UK salaries. Your household has an average income of £100k and the average UK household income is £30k. It's really not that much of a bad wage.

 

[ksinger]

Hey, come to the UK - even with the student fees going up it's still a bargain!

I graduated with a £1k overdraft and having spent a total of £10k on maintenance (tuition was free).

UK education is not cheap. Most university fees are going to be £9000 a year in September 2012. That means a three year degree will be £27000 ($44000) and five year degrees $73000. There will be no scholarships, everybody will pay on graduating. Those on modest incomes will pay off for the rest of their lives and will pay off more than double, up to triple their debt, yet never clear it. They will still pay for books and accommodation, which is going up to cover costs that unis are losing in funding. DH has taught inner city high school and the majority of his low income kids who should go to Uni are now not going as they can't afford living costs or face the thought of the debt. Education is the key indicator of escaping poverty and attaining good health and these children will no longer be able to access it.

Rosetta- $80,000 a year is about £50k, about the top 10% of UK salaries. Your household has an average income of £100k and the average UK household income is £30k. It's really not that much of a bad wage.

Ditto to this here in the US. DH, inner city high school, too much debt, all of it. Only it's been like that here for quite a while and is only becoming more the norm now. And these kids understand it quite well, even if they can't always articulate it. It's why the dropout rate is so incredibly high. Too many of these kids' default response is to give up BEFORE they try. It's very sad.

And yes, $80,000 a year for one person is pretty plush, and also very much the top of the US wage heap. We were having this discussion in the office the other day over lunch - one guy was ranting(tax rate rant) that 250,000 household income "wasn't rich" (he and his wife together are approaching that). I pointed out a few stats to him and he was actually stunned. He had no idea. Then he said "well, I don't FEEL rich". I replied, "Well, that doesn't change the fact that next to the vast majority of people in this country, you ARE." He admitted the truth of my subsequent statement that it was less a comment on his wealth, than the struggle and the real poverty of the bottom 50-80%. People who work in places where everyone is educated (I work in IT) and at the very least, middle class, and who don't ever socialize, work with, talk to, or otherwise deal with people who are not, tend to forget they exist, and think everyone is like them - degreed and getting by.

 

[missy]

And yes, $80,000 a year for one person is pretty plush, and also very much the top of the US wage heap. We were having this discussion in the office the other day over lunch - one guy was ranting(tax rate rant) that 250,000 household income "wasn't rich" (he and his wife together are approaching that). I pointed out a few stats to him and he was actually stunned. He had no idea. Then he said "well, I don't FEEL rich". I replied, "Well, that doesn't change the fact that next to the vast majority of people in this country, you ARE."

Yes by comparison someone making this kind of money can be considered rich however how rich you are practically speaking does depend very much on where you live. If you are making 250K in South Dakota you will be living high on the hog. If you are making 250K in NYC not so much. Anyway this is how I see it and whether or not you agree it is a fact that while compared to others if you make this much money you are making a lot of money but you may not be living a rich lifestyle depending where you actually live.

 

[ksinger]

And yes, $80,000 a year for one person is pretty plush, and also very much the top of the US wage heap. We were having this discussion in the office the other day over lunch - one guy was ranting(tax rate rant) that 250,000 household income "wasn't rich" (he and his wife together are approaching that). I pointed out a few stats to him and he was actually stunned. He had no idea. Then he said "well, I don't FEEL rich". I replied, "Well, that doesn't change the fact that next to the vast majority of people in this country, you ARE."

Yes by comparison someone making this kind of money can be considered rich however how rich you are practically speaking does depend very much on where you live. If you are making 250K in South Dakota you will be living high on the hog. If you are making 250K in NYC not so much. Anyway this is how I see it and whether or not you agree it is a fact that while compared to others if you make this much money you are making a lot of money but you may not be living a rich lifestyle depending where you actually live.

Well, statistics doesn't take into account how a person "feels" about their income level or lifestyle, it merely looks at income levels relative to other income levels, and by that measure, 250,000 is pretty much top of the pyramid, also a fact, whether or not you agree. Heck, by Oklahoma standards I'M living quite large, and I live in a tiny house and work every day. By national standards, my husband and I are doing much better than any average you care to trot out. But we both know that one good illness or job loss, could end that in a heartbeat. The reason that most of us are in the "middle class" now rather than lower down the totem pole, is not because wages have kept up, but because both partners in a household work. If we hewed to the traditional model, most of us wouldn't be doing so well.

Here's an interesting article, by a former student of my husband's father no less... Don't know that I agree with all of it, but her take on why middle-class (or even the top, from what I hear here) doesn't FEEL middle-class, is interesting.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/10.30/19-bankruptcy.html


Excerpt:
Blame it on good schools, safe neighborhoods

How did being middle class get so expensive? The answers run contrary to popular wisdom as well as to Warren's own assumptions. Today's family is spending 21 percent less on clothing, 22 percent less on food - including eating out - and 44 percent less on appliances than they did a generation ago. Warren notes that a combination of lowered production costs and changing lifestyles are at work. Discount stores, meals that include less red meat and are more likely to have been purchased in bulk from wholesalers like Costco, and casual dressing at all ages have spelled savings for families.

Nor are warehouse-sized McMansions to blame; this type of housing is generally not going to middle-class families. Although housing costs have skyrocketed nationwide in the past generation, the size of average homes has grown far more modestly, by less than one room between 1975 and the late 1990s, Warren found.

Instead, Warren points the finger at two concepts dear to the hearts of almost all Americans: safety and education. Both are perceived to be more elusive now than a generation ago, when families bought a house they could afford and sent their children to the school down the street without a second thought. Now, she says, middle-class families are stretching themselves to the breaking point to afford homes in safe neighborhoods and "better" school districts.