Why...

[AprilBaby]

Are not all diamonds by default not cut to ideal specifications? Is it the skill of the cutter? The fault somehow of the rough? Why not have cut perfect and just vary clarity and color?

 

[GemFever]

But then we wouldn't have so much fun hunting for perfection at PS...

I think it's a combination of the things you mention -- nature of the rough, skill of the cutter... as well as desire to retain as much weight as possible.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

But then we wouldn't have so much fun hunting for perfection at PS...

I think it's a combination of the things you mention -- nature of the rough, skill of the cutter... as well as desire to retain as much weight as possible.

That would probably top the list of reasons, I would think.

 

[kenny]

Are not all diamonds by default not cut to ideal specifications? Is it the skill of the cutter? The fault somehow of the rough? Why not have cut perfect and just vary clarity and color?

Money.
The diamond business is not art or charity.
It's business.

Usually more rough has to be polished away for a diamond to have good light performance.
Few customers understand good cut, but every buyer understands carat weight.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Great question April Baby.
Skill of the cutter is a big factor.
Limited market is another.
If 1000 people are looking for a round brilliant diamond today, what percentage is going to shop to the type of stone we can define as "super ideal" here on PS?
Even if the consumer is looking for really well cut and they're educated enough to understand that GIA is the way t go ( putting AGS aside for a moment)- a "regular GIA triple EX will probably satisfy them.
DS is correct that a typical GIA triple EX is not cut to the level of a "super ideal"- and that weight is one reason.
If we were going to have two hypothetical diamonds to compare, say they were close in price, which would most people buy?
1) 2.30ct GIA triple EX H/SI1 HCA=5 which spreads 8.6mm
2) 2.00ct H/SI1 AGSL 0 Cut grade HCA=1.5 which spreads 8.2mm

 

[AprilBaby]

Limited market is because we have choice. Assuming all diamonds COULD be cut ideal, choice would be purely color and clarity for which you could pay way different prices. Why would anyone cut a poor performing stone on purpose? Again, it must come down to cutter experience and/or rough potential? Maybe I'm missing something here...
Thanks for your replies!

 

[kenny]

Limited market is because we have choice. Assuming all diamonds COULD be cut ideal, choice would be purely color and clarity for which you could pay way different prices. Why would anyone cut a poor performing stone on purpose? Again, it must come down to cutter experience and/or rough potential? Maybe I'm missing something here...
Thanks for your replies!

MONEY!!!.

The diamond business is not art or charity.
It's business.

Usually more rough has to be polished away for a diamond to have good light performance.
Few customers understand good cut, but every buyer understands carat weight.

 

[Rockdiamond]

The term "poor performing" does not really apply if we're using my hypothetical example. A GIA triple EX scoring 5 on HCA will most likely will be a stone that looks great to most people.
No obvious deficiencies- but compared to a stone scoring 1.5 they will see a difference. My point is, of those that understand and see the difference some will still choose to use the money for the extra weight and spread, forgoing the difference between GIA triple EX and AGS 0 cut grade super ideal.
Of course more people in the actual market buy the 2.30ct in my example, because not that many even know about "super ideal"
But even for those who do, some will consider the less well cut ( although still very well cut) stone a "better performer" simply because it looks bigger.

So there's a market for both- and a bigger market ( currently) for the more garden variety well cut stones. The super ideal stones go for premium prices based on cost and difficulty to cut them, they are well worth it to the people who buy them. But not worth it for everyone. So cutters meet demand.
If more buyers are looking for the super ideal stones, more will be cut.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Usually, cutting rough to ideal proportions means a smaller final stone. More waste.

 

[AprilBaby]

Got it Kenny!
Money!

Thanks for your great answers!!!

 

[decodelighted]

Why aren't all cars Bentleys? Some folks value shallow & large-facing vs. ideal proportions & better light performance. Some like chunky facets and large culets -- some like pin-prick glittery Princesses or Radiants. Cutters cut a range of options based on demand basically. As Kenny said - the ultimate goal is profitability, not one person's particular view of "perfection".

 

[denverappraiser]

I'm going to go with Kenny here. It's about the money.

The job of the miner is to get whatever God put there.
The job of the cutter is to turn that into something that the dealers can sell for as much as possible, as quickly as possible.
Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Bear in mind that all a cutter can do is subtract, and they can never go back.

Some stones are better suited to be cut for size, some are best cut for optics, some are cut for different shapes, some are submitted to different labs. All of these things have the same objective in mind. Money.

Size, in particular, is what confuses people here. There ARE customers who want heavy makes. There ARE customers who want spready makes. Heavy stones come with bragging rights and spready stones face up bigger. They may not sell well to the folks who post here but they DO sell and they sell for a premium even if there's an offsetting discount for the optics. If the weight premium is going to be more than the optics discount, expect it to be cut for weight.

 

[Karl_K]

The fundamental reason is price of rough is based on expected polished yield.
You can't buy a piece of rough that is sold based on expecting a 2ct steep/deep and cut a 1.75 ideal cut out of it and stay in business.

 

[Laila619]

Limited market is because we have choice. Assuming all diamonds COULD be cut ideal, choice would be purely color and clarity for which you could pay way different prices. Why would anyone cut a poor performing stone on purpose? Again, it must come down to cutter experience and/or rough potential? Maybe I'm missing something here...
Thanks for your replies!

MONEY!!!.

The diamond business is not art or charity.
It's business.

Usually more rough has to be polished away for a diamond to have good light performance.
Few customers understand good cut, but every buyer understands carat weight.

Yep. It's all about money. You cut for excellent light performance, you lose more of the material.

 

[AprilBaby]

Excellent posts everyone!! All makes sense!

 

[GreenBling]

I think how they are cut is really driven by the market. PS is not the norm. No one in my circle, not even the jewelers would talk about diamonds the same way PSers do... Angles combination, table, crown height etc... The market is not educated on what makes a diamond beautiful. it would not surprise me if majority consumers are happy to buy VG cut as honestly, pre-PS, I thought Ex Ex Ex was already the 'ideal' so VG must be not bad. And of course there are ppl who want size so gladly buy a poorly cut one for the X carat mark and right price.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Limited market is because we have choice. Assuming all diamonds COULD be cut ideal, choice would be purely color and clarity for which you could pay way different prices. Why would anyone cut a poor performing stone on purpose? Again, it must come down to cutter experience and/or rough potential? Maybe I'm missing something here...
Thanks for your replies!

Yield. Retain more weight based on rough shape = more carat = more money.

 

[KaeKae]

From the amateur point of view: weight is the one factor that is most easily understood. As someone else said, it gives bragging rights, even if it faces up small and doesn't perform as PSers know a stone can.

Next comes color, again for bragging rights, I think in most cases. Some people are somewhat color sensitive, outside PS, but I think most don't see it until a stone is way down the scale. (It's actually the only thing other than weight that I've heard people discuss outside of PS.) Clarity is hard to discern to the naked and uneducated eye and cut perfomance is most difficult to see without a good deal of diamond education.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Why do I see most cars riding at 75 mph when the speed-limit is 65?
Why do runners in the 200 meters not run in the center of their lane, but at the inside?

The reason for this has two sides, I think:
- On the one hand, it pays to cut corners.
- And if you do, you know that it will only become a problem (a fine for the car-driver or disqualification for the runner) if the corner-cutting becomes exaggerated.

Especially in the car-speed-example, cutting corners as a group has an effect on the reaction. With the majority of drivers going 10 miles over the speed-limit, that becomes the 'unofficial' norm. One can even wonder if over-time, this 'unofficial' norm gets bumped up.

In the case of diamonds, a few of the posters have given the example of how it pays to cut corners (pun intended). In almost all cases, the weight-retention is higher, thus the final weight is higher.

The second reason is important too, however. As long as the level of corner-cutting does not pass some treshold, it is accepted. And if that corner-cutting is group-behavior, the acceptable level of corner-cutting also becomes the norm, as it will dictate the price that is readily acceptable.

There are various consumer-markets for diamonds, both geographically and in level of consumer-education. Thus, what is acceptable with regards to cut varies a lot. Hence the ability for cutters to produce various levels of cut-quality, while aiming to maximize the return.

But even, if we would live in the perfect world with all consumers being as educated as the PS-crowd, still the majority of production would be at the acceptable level of cut-quality, not at the level that could be achieved. Group-behavior would make that the norm, and decide upon the expected price-level. Cutting anything better than that not only reduces the final weight, with the stone being visually slightly more expensive than the 'acceptable' norm, the likelihood of it selling slower increases, which can only be compensated by a premium-price.

In today's world, GIA has contributed in reducing the norm of what is acceptable. The number of diamonds currently traded based on the grading-report only, without the professional buyer ever checking the actual stone, is huge and still growing. It is a danger for all concerned about cut-quality. If selling 'paper' as in reports becomes easier than selling actual diamonds, the customer actually wanting a diamond might become too fussy to serve.

LIve long,

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Paul!
I was going to also point out that some cutters , while subtracting from weight, can still add value by producing a better cut diamond that sells for a higher net price than before they touched it. Of course it's still about the money, bottom line, but it shows that it's more complex.
I was wondering, and Paul, you can probably answer this: If every factory cutting "regular" triple EX GIA rounds wanted to convert to cutting AGS 0 cut grade stones - what we can call "Super Ideal" how difficult to make such a change, and how many could do it?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Hi Paul!
I was going to also point out that some cutters , while subtracting from weight, can still add value by producing a better cut diamond that sells for a higher net price than before they touched it. Of course it's still about the money, bottom line, but it shows that it's more complex.
I was wondering, and Paul, you can probably answer this: If every factory cutting "regular" triple EX GIA rounds wanted to convert to cutting AGS 0 cut grade stones - what we can call "Super Ideal" how difficult to make such a change, and how many could do it?

David, you are asking multiple questions in one sentence, which makes replying less simple.

First, if you are asking, if a factory could do it, it concerns the technical ability. Technically, switching from producing GIA-3EX to AGS-0 is not a huge leap. "Regular" AGS-0 implies somewhat stricter angles, a small technical challenge, and possibly a slight adaptation to the grading of Polish. Any factory currently active in GIA-3EX is capable of that switch, if they want to and if they take the time to understand AGS-grading.

Super-ideal is another story, as it goes further than just the simple lab-grade. It implies a philosophy to consistently produce something better than the bottom-level of the lab-grade. It also implies understanding light-performance beyond the level currently understood and proven by scientists. Finally, it requires personality, to go beyond the lab-requirements.

Live long,

 

[Rockdiamond]

Thanks Paul.
My point is that in answer to the original question- why aren't all diamonds cut to ideal specification, the answer isn't a simple "weight retention"
The last part of your answer is what I was referring to.
Not all cutters have the vision to take risks by cutting smaller, exceptionally cut diamonds as compared to really well cut diamonds, still cut well, yet done with more emphasis placed on yield.
Or as has been described, corner cutting and placing yield at the top of the list.
So part of the reason such a small percentage of stones is cut to ideal specifications has to do with the skill ( and mind) of the cutter.
Basically not everyone can cut them that well. Even if they tried.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thanks Paul.
My point is that in answer to the original question- why aren't all diamonds cut to ideal specification, the answer isn't a simple "weight retention"
The last part of your answer is what I was referring to.
Not all cutters have the vision to take risks by cutting smaller, exceptionally cut diamonds as compared to really well cut diamonds, still cut well, yet done with more emphasis placed on yield.
Or as has been described, corner cutting and placing yield at the top of the list.
So part of the reason such a small percentage of stones is cut to ideal specifications has to do with the skill ( and mind) of the cutter.
Basically not everyone can cut them that well. Even if they tried.

IMO...b/c the dealer can make more profit by selling lower quality cut stones based on its weight not its cut.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Thanks Paul.
My point is that in answer to the original question- why aren't all diamonds cut to ideal specification, the answer isn't a simple "weight retention"
The last part of your answer is what I was referring to.
Not all cutters have the vision to take risks by cutting smaller, exceptionally cut diamonds as compared to really well cut diamonds, still cut well, yet done with more emphasis placed on yield.
Or as has been described, corner cutting and placing yield at the top of the list.
So part of the reason such a small percentage of stones is cut to ideal specifications has to do with the skill ( and mind) of the cutter.
Basically not everyone can cut them that well. Even if they tried.

Hi David,

I think that you are simplifying the matter too far. Let me try to give some more insight.

I too simplified it by only mentioning mindset, understanding and personality as necessary attributes for the cutter producing super-ideals. It goes farther than this.

Cutting super-ideals, the cutter cannot simply produce them and sell them through his regular wholesale-channels. The wholesaler will only want these diamonds if he understands the quality (beyond minimum lab-criteria). Aside from understanding, he will only buy them if his customers (retailers) understand and want the same. In the end, the retailer needs to be well-educated to finalize the sales to consumers. All in all, for the retailer, it is a tough act (mainly educational) explaining cut-quality to the average customer going from store to store.

In essence, for the cutter wanting to produce such quality, it means an extra investment is necessary in training and education of everyone in the pipeline towards the final consumer, ranging from the wholesaler to the sales-clerk in the store. That is a major hurdle for most cutters.

Live long,

 

[Rockdiamond]

We're in total agreement Paul- its not only the cutter, but an entire network of assets built on education, consumer and dealer awareness.

DF- you know I love you....really, we even have the same initials.
But I think that generalizations will always paint some with too broad a brush.
Are there greedy sellers of diamonds that are ready to tell people anything to sell a diamond? YES
They use all kinds of tricks- labs that issue grades they know to be contrary to gemological practice- bait and switch- all kinds of bad stuff.
I think in large part that sellers engaging in such behavior are not really "diamond people"- as such.
The bad sellers, by in large, know very little about the type of fine points we're discussing here. If a store takes the time and effort to educate consumers about GIA EX cut grade- and never even gets to the level of discussion we are having here- that's heads and shoulders above the average. Stores like that should be commended- even if we can knock certain GIA triple EX stones for being too deep.

What Paul is referring to- and I agree, is that the goal really needs to be a network of sellers that is not focused specially on the "cheapest price"- rather taking the time and effort to create an environment that fosters the educational aspects.

 

[distracts]

Paul and David, thank you for chiming in on this thread, it is always interesting to hear about this from those in the trade!