diamondsbylauren
Brilliant_Rock
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Why is Diamond Talk discussion so critical of the HCA?
- Thread starter noobie
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OK, this thing is not going to die.
I was kicked off DT because I called Brad out for posting missinformation on an example of a stone (the only one ever) where HCA did not work.
I have already said that a good HCA result does not mean that a stone is definetly beautiful. That is clearly stated on the site.
The service is free and promotes no ones stones. It makes me a tiny amount from the search by cut quality, enough to pay for coffee.
David and all you lurkers from DT, please find a stone that scores poorly on HCA, that is a truly beautiful diamond, that you are prepared to submit to Dave Atlas or Rich Sherwood or some other impartial 3rd party.
Put up or shut up.
I was kicked off DT because I called Brad out for posting missinformation on an example of a stone (the only one ever) where HCA did not work.
I have already said that a good HCA result does not mean that a stone is definetly beautiful. That is clearly stated on the site.
The service is free and promotes no ones stones. It makes me a tiny amount from the search by cut quality, enough to pay for coffee.
David and all you lurkers from DT, please find a stone that scores poorly on HCA, that is a truly beautiful diamond, that you are prepared to submit to Dave Atlas or Rich Sherwood or some other impartial 3rd party.
Put up or shut up.
----------------
On 3/23/2004 4:49:18 PM dberg wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong - David - but I believe that Fire&Ice said that she would use the Sarin report to weed out stones she was not interested in personally viewing - then she would view the ones she was interested in. Perhaps I have inferred to much into that statement. I get so easily confused when talking diamonds.----------------
Yep, that's what *I* said and what *David* failed to get.
Yep, I can call myself dopey & stupid all day long. How uncivilized of me. But, then, I don't know no better. I'm a confused consumer.
To quote Kamuelamom. Sometimes you say well & sometimes you say oh well.
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On 3/23/2004 4:59:48 PM aljdewey wrote:
p]
----------------[/p]
I can only infer that this must be a deficiency in your reading comprehension skills, because you keep ignoring this. Everyone has said - REPEATEDLY - that they would use this information to 'narrow the field', but would not BUY from the reports alone.
Look at her repsonse - IF it checked out nice by the numbers, THEN I'D TAKE A LOOK AT THE DIAMOND (that means PRE-PURCHASE, David.) And from that, you respond 'You'd buy a diamond without seeing it?'
quote]
Yep, but - you know I'm just dopey & stupid; so, I forgot that I wrote that.
----------------
On 3/23/2004 6:30:47 PM Trinity wrote:
This thread kinda reminds me of that e-bay horror thread. Not sure why.----------------
Because of the inability to comprehend what *everyone* is saying? Like "return the money" is akin to "HCA is a tool to weed out possible poor performers for call in stones that you want to see".
diamondsbylauren
Brilliant_Rock
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Who needs the HCA?- I'm sending all my diamonds to the real expert here- Fire and Ice!
I get the poiint of the conversation- use the HCA to eliminate stones.
BUT DO YOU ALL GET MY POINT? If you don't have the right person to buy from ( NO I'm NOT TALKING ABOPUT ME-PICK YOUR OWN DARN DEALER) then the HCA means NOTHJING.
I get the poiint of the conversation- use the HCA to eliminate stones.
BUT DO YOU ALL GET MY POINT? If you don't have the right person to buy from ( NO I'm NOT TALKING ABOPUT ME-PICK YOUR OWN DARN DEALER) then the HCA means NOTHJING.
pricescope
Ideal_Rock
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noobie
Brilliant_Rock
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David,
I don’t know you at all.I can only assume that you are a decent person, but I don’t appreciate you hijacking my thread and turning into something that was never intended.I just wanted to understand more about diamond grading tools and their limitations.I have personally found the HCA very useful as a screening tool as well as the many others that I have found and used, including AGS certifications, firescope and brilliancescope.Yes, in the end I let my eyes and the judgment of a vendor influence my final decision.
However, this discussion is so far off the original intent and has outlived its usefulness.
AS THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS THREAD, I’M MAKING A PUBLIC AND PRIVATE APPEAL TO LEONID TO DELETE IT!
Thanks
diamondsbylauren
Brilliant_Rock
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hoorray
Ideal_Rock
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pricescope
Ideal_Rock
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----------------
On 3/23/2004 6:47:15 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:
Who needs the HCA?- I'm sending all my diamonds to the real expert here- Fire and Ice!
quote]
Yippee!! I can supply my name and address. No self addressed return envelope necessary.
BTW, because we have an informed opinion based on numerous diamond searches doesn't mean we consider ourselves an expert; nor, does it mean that we don't respect experience. I take issue with someone who simply can not understand that someone may have an opinion other than *your* opinion. Or buy, only the way *you* say to buy. And, that said opinion is arrived at *not* because we think we are expert know it alls. It's just the way someone prefers to buy; or, for that matter, what someone prefers.
And, perhaps I am different. I learn more from my collectors than anyone else. I see their preference leanings. They may have a tidbit from an outsider's view that I didn't consider. While they learn from me, I learn far more about many facets of specifics & life from them. I never dictate anything as absolute.
R/A?
diamondsbylauren
Brilliant_Rock
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Noobie, back to your question- Why is DT critical of HCA?
1) it's creator got on the wrong side of a few suppliers
2) of course personal feelings are likely to influence any of us- especially if you feel you've been wronged
3) In spite of this, I and many sellers, feel that such tools as the HCA do not really accomplish any meaningful goal.
It has been pointed out here, that HCA will allow you to eliminate stones. I've found that to be useless- what people need is to find the RIGHT diamond.
Obviously there are a lot of folks that want the opportunity to eliminate bad stones using HCA- more power to them. Ultimately they will be faced with what I'm talking about anyway. ( that being finding the right diamond)
Now, as an expert, my opinion may or may not be welcomed here.
Since many people have had less than stellar experiences with diamond sellers in the past, everything I say is looked at as a bald faced attempt to sell something.
That's quite insulting to someone like me- but there are those who understand where I'm coming from too.
I can only hope that whatever I'm putting out there- an honest attempt to use my knowledge to assist others- finds some open ears and eyes.
1) it's creator got on the wrong side of a few suppliers
2) of course personal feelings are likely to influence any of us- especially if you feel you've been wronged
3) In spite of this, I and many sellers, feel that such tools as the HCA do not really accomplish any meaningful goal.
It has been pointed out here, that HCA will allow you to eliminate stones. I've found that to be useless- what people need is to find the RIGHT diamond.
Obviously there are a lot of folks that want the opportunity to eliminate bad stones using HCA- more power to them. Ultimately they will be faced with what I'm talking about anyway. ( that being finding the right diamond)
Now, as an expert, my opinion may or may not be welcomed here.
Since many people have had less than stellar experiences with diamond sellers in the past, everything I say is looked at as a bald faced attempt to sell something.
That's quite insulting to someone like me- but there are those who understand where I'm coming from too.
I can only hope that whatever I'm putting out there- an honest attempt to use my knowledge to assist others- finds some open ears and eyes.
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Yes, David......we all get that point, and in fact, no one ever contested that.
However, your comments have a tone that implies having a trusted dealer and using the HCA are mutually exclusive of one another.....and they are not.
In fact, when folks come here and have narrowed down to a few choices and are looking for help in final selections, the regulars here nearly *always* recommend "talk to your vendor - get his input." or "have Brian look at both stones and tell you which he thinks performs better".
When new folks come here, several folks chime in with advice to identify reputable dealers to begin their search......right out of the gate.
No one here is trashing the usefulness of dealers, and if you spent any appreciable amount of time here and got to KNOW the flavor of this board, you'd already know that. Some of you "infrequent visitors" have a nasty habit of falling into the "sound bite" syndrome. You hear ONE comment - usually taken out of context - and run with that comment with no idea what ELSE was said.
Instead of popping in here infrequently when something hits your hot button and blasting everyone the first time you *think* someone is bashing dealers, you should try frequenting here are *listening* to what happens. Maybe then you'd stop putting effort into trying to preach to the choir, so to speak.
In an optimal situation, a customer can use the HCA to weed out potentially bad performers, and then rely on his own eyes AND his trusted vendor to help him in his final selection.
No one is saying "replace the trusted vendor with the HCA", and nor should vendors be suggesting that customers rely "solely" on *their* definition of beauty to select diamonds.
-[/quote]
"Now, as an expert, my opinion may or may not be welcomed here."
David, now I know the disconnect here. I would never ever call myself an expert in my trade. Others have called me an expert. I never consider myself one because *that* is when one (IMHO) stops learning. I have so much to learn. I don't have the answers. I believe markets are in constant state of flux. I don't buy into the way it *should* be; but, the way it can be. I embrace new ideas. The market (diamonds included) is revolving and changing. I find that when people call themselves "experts" they tend to idenify with what was as absolute & not what is. This is a generalized thought not specifically aimed at you.
That said, I don't doubt you have years of experience. I don't doubt you know your way of business & industry. An expert, don't know? Not the way I view it. And, please don't spin this to say that I called into question your expertise - which is quite different than "expert". But, then I view very very very very few people as experts. I don't even use the term.
Edited because I am no expert at the computer & lost half of what I wanted to quote.
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This is a copy and apste of the old DT thread where things got nasty and led to my expulsion. This as much for you David as anyone else.
You will note that I never actually accused Brad of being dishonest - I gave him the choice to admit to an honest mistake. He choose to get upset and use his advertisers weight.
this is the offending comment:
"It seems to me that you have made a big deal over many years about a stone that is an out and out fraud.
Looking at real diamonds has nothing to do with what appears to be mistaken identity at best and blatant misrepresentation at worst."
Jan just refferred to that old thread and I had another look at it.
There is something wrong with the proportions.....
1.11ct SI1 I
6.58-6.64
Table 62
Depth 62.2
crown height 13.2
crown angle 35
pavilion angle 41.6
pavilion depth 44
girdle thin to medium
culet none
The DiamCalc image and proportions here show that it is not possible to have that total depth or the pavilion depth. Also the weight of this stone would be much less.
Regards Garry Holloway
I put the images around the wrong way
The first picture shows that this is not the same diamond.
Maybe they made an honest mistake and slod the customer a better stone?
Regards Garry Holloway
reality
Didn`t sell the wrong stone. laser inscribed with G.I.A lab report number by G.I.A., and was viewed under the microscope with consumer in store
Brad
Maybe Brad "anything is possible" (the thread title)
Can you explain it?
Regards Garry Holloway
reality versus virtual.
when you punch in a single numeral(average) (crown or pavilion) this is assuming that all eight are identical. Very seldom is this the case. Don`t expect the averages to add up.
a simple answer would be to *look* at some real diamonds
Brad
I will step up and say something because I think I am one of the inspirations for this thread. My diamond is 63.2% depth and 62% table. When looking at it in indoor lighting, the stone looks like the pictures Brad posted above. It's got a white circle (forvige my non-professional wording) around the bottom then dark light leakage around. This can be seen by looking at the diamond straight on but it's definitely darker inside. Also the crown angles are very steep so it has the appearance that the prongs aren't sitting correctly. Also if the light catches it good, my diamond looks deformed (or warped as the DG would say) and it looks like there is a big chip in the diamond...like the side is gone.
It definitely doesn't have the overall sparkle that the 2 ideal diamonds I had have had. However, I will say that being a F diamond, it looks much better than any diamond I've seen up here in the cornfields of Indiana. It has lots of white light reflecting but it would probably get a Medium in the color light department unless I replace all the lighting in my house with Halogen like at Lowe's.
My big gripe was the cost of this diamond versus a better performing ideal. I know there are great performing diamonds out there without the perfect numbers but since my honey bought the stone sight unseen, having the numbers there is just reassurance. I think some people on the net need the perfect numbers because they know it will be a nice performing stone and since they can't look at it compared to many others, that is their only choice.
(Consumer)
Brad and Jan will you not respond?
It seems to me that you have made a big deal over many years about a stone that is an out and out fraud.
Looking at real diamonds has nothing to do with what appears to be mistaken identity at best and blatant misrepresentation at worst.
Regards Garry Holloway
You better watch your step there, those accusation are disparaging and false and out of hand !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can`t help it your system doesn`t work half the time, but my character is not to be used as a punching bag on here.
I`ll attach the g.i.a report and sarin as well.
Brad
Poof – Garry disappears forever from DT
So it seems that the only stone they have ever shown that got a bad HCA and was supposedly a good stone was never supported by any facts.
That is why I open the challenge for anyone to submit such stones to a third party respected appraiser so we do not have this possability of fabricated reports (if this was a deliberate fabrication and not an honest mistake on brad's behalf - which I believe is the likely case).
You will note that I never actually accused Brad of being dishonest - I gave him the choice to admit to an honest mistake. He choose to get upset and use his advertisers weight.
this is the offending comment:
"It seems to me that you have made a big deal over many years about a stone that is an out and out fraud.
Looking at real diamonds has nothing to do with what appears to be mistaken identity at best and blatant misrepresentation at worst."
Jan just refferred to that old thread and I had another look at it.
There is something wrong with the proportions.....
1.11ct SI1 I
6.58-6.64
Table 62
Depth 62.2
crown height 13.2
crown angle 35
pavilion angle 41.6
pavilion depth 44
girdle thin to medium
culet none
The DiamCalc image and proportions here show that it is not possible to have that total depth or the pavilion depth. Also the weight of this stone would be much less.
Regards Garry Holloway
I put the images around the wrong way
The first picture shows that this is not the same diamond.
Maybe they made an honest mistake and slod the customer a better stone?
Regards Garry Holloway
reality
Didn`t sell the wrong stone. laser inscribed with G.I.A lab report number by G.I.A., and was viewed under the microscope with consumer in store
Brad
Maybe Brad "anything is possible" (the thread title)
Can you explain it?
Regards Garry Holloway
reality versus virtual.
when you punch in a single numeral(average) (crown or pavilion) this is assuming that all eight are identical. Very seldom is this the case. Don`t expect the averages to add up.
a simple answer would be to *look* at some real diamonds
Brad
I will step up and say something because I think I am one of the inspirations for this thread. My diamond is 63.2% depth and 62% table. When looking at it in indoor lighting, the stone looks like the pictures Brad posted above. It's got a white circle (forvige my non-professional wording) around the bottom then dark light leakage around. This can be seen by looking at the diamond straight on but it's definitely darker inside. Also the crown angles are very steep so it has the appearance that the prongs aren't sitting correctly. Also if the light catches it good, my diamond looks deformed (or warped as the DG would say) and it looks like there is a big chip in the diamond...like the side is gone.
It definitely doesn't have the overall sparkle that the 2 ideal diamonds I had have had. However, I will say that being a F diamond, it looks much better than any diamond I've seen up here in the cornfields of Indiana. It has lots of white light reflecting but it would probably get a Medium in the color light department unless I replace all the lighting in my house with Halogen like at Lowe's.
My big gripe was the cost of this diamond versus a better performing ideal. I know there are great performing diamonds out there without the perfect numbers but since my honey bought the stone sight unseen, having the numbers there is just reassurance. I think some people on the net need the perfect numbers because they know it will be a nice performing stone and since they can't look at it compared to many others, that is their only choice.
(Consumer)
Brad and Jan will you not respond?
It seems to me that you have made a big deal over many years about a stone that is an out and out fraud.
Looking at real diamonds has nothing to do with what appears to be mistaken identity at best and blatant misrepresentation at worst.
Regards Garry Holloway
You better watch your step there, those accusation are disparaging and false and out of hand !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can`t help it your system doesn`t work half the time, but my character is not to be used as a punching bag on here.
I`ll attach the g.i.a report and sarin as well.
Brad
Poof – Garry disappears forever from DT
So it seems that the only stone they have ever shown that got a bad HCA and was supposedly a good stone was never supported by any facts.
That is why I open the challenge for anyone to submit such stones to a third party respected appraiser so we do not have this possability of fabricated reports (if this was a deliberate fabrication and not an honest mistake on brad's behalf - which I believe is the likely case).
diamondsbylauren
Brilliant_Rock
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GREAT point F&I.!
My old teacher used to remind me the definition of expert:
EX- is someting that was
SPURT- is a drip
If being an "expert" does not allow one to learn- well that brings to mind another old expression
"Only a fool knows everything"
I have a lot of confidence in my abilites to buy diamonds- still, I find that I constantly rely on those who taught me, and others I respect - I have a lot to lean
I do think that taking a stand is the right thing to do- and I also realize that at times, such a stance makes an error all that much worse. It also makes me an easy target.
Still, I stand by my position, and respect yours.
"Use the HCA to eliminate diamonds."
Since most of the diamonds I buy don't even have Sarin reports, I couldn't even plug them in to HCA.
I don't think anyone would suggest a competant dealer buying diamonds would ultimately rely on anything but thier own eyes.
That is not to say that the same competant dealer would not use ALL the tools available before making such a decision- such as Sarin, or Brilliancescope.
But here again the HCA looses.
I don't know of any ( although I'll bet someone here might find one) dealers using HCA in thier buying. As a consumer, you'd probably want to go with a proven method.
Bottom line- My opinion on this issue is strictly acedemic. You have to hand it to Gary and HCA- the guy put in a lot of work and a lot of people respect what he's doing.
I take my hat off to him fpr all he's accomplished. EDITED after I read Gary's Post above-
I have come in peace- Gary and I have had our differences- But please do not involve me with whatever happened with ANYONE else- I wasn't there and I don't care to go back in time.
BTW- As an example of a stone that defies HCA or any machine- what do you guys think of this cushion?- bear in mind the comment on the GIA report
"Crown Angles Greater than 40 Degrees.
This thing would not score well on ANY machine- except the human eye. Just a point
My old teacher used to remind me the definition of expert:
EX- is someting that was
SPURT- is a drip
If being an "expert" does not allow one to learn- well that brings to mind another old expression
"Only a fool knows everything"
I have a lot of confidence in my abilites to buy diamonds- still, I find that I constantly rely on those who taught me, and others I respect - I have a lot to lean
I do think that taking a stand is the right thing to do- and I also realize that at times, such a stance makes an error all that much worse. It also makes me an easy target.
Still, I stand by my position, and respect yours.
"Use the HCA to eliminate diamonds."
Since most of the diamonds I buy don't even have Sarin reports, I couldn't even plug them in to HCA.
I don't think anyone would suggest a competant dealer buying diamonds would ultimately rely on anything but thier own eyes.
That is not to say that the same competant dealer would not use ALL the tools available before making such a decision- such as Sarin, or Brilliancescope.
But here again the HCA looses.
I don't know of any ( although I'll bet someone here might find one) dealers using HCA in thier buying. As a consumer, you'd probably want to go with a proven method.
Bottom line- My opinion on this issue is strictly acedemic. You have to hand it to Gary and HCA- the guy put in a lot of work and a lot of people respect what he's doing.
I take my hat off to him fpr all he's accomplished. EDITED after I read Gary's Post above-
I have come in peace- Gary and I have had our differences- But please do not involve me with whatever happened with ANYONE else- I wasn't there and I don't care to go back in time.
BTW- As an example of a stone that defies HCA or any machine- what do you guys think of this cushion?- bear in mind the comment on the GIA report
"Crown Angles Greater than 40 Degrees.
This thing would not score well on ANY machine- except the human eye. Just a point
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