Why is Diamond Talk discussion so critical of the HCA?

[phoenixgirl]

OK, so here goes, maybe I am just stirring up the muck here . . .

But I was curious about this response by some rival gang, er, forum, so I went a-lookin for what the fuss could be all about. And I found it, and skimmed it . . .

And somebody who sells diamonds for a living actually said that watching people trust the HCA is like watching the Titanic sink without doing anything about it.

Yeah, uh huh, exactly the same. Theorizing about the interplay between crown and pavilion angles, what does that remind me of again? Oh yeah, the tragic deaths of a thousand innocent people! My god, somebody stop the HCA massacre before it's too late!

Ew, ew, ew. Get a little perspective people. Maybe, (gasp, dare I say it?) maybe the HCA might be wrong on occasion, or even often. But it's not like we're worshipping the thing. Is this what civilization has become? Really, doesn't it seem like we invent reasons to argue, because maybe all our needs are being met by the hard work already done by our forebearers, and now we have to struggle to come up with something that might resemble an intellectual exercise just to keep from brain-death?

If we're going to jump into the icy waters to save somebody from a terrible plight, let it be the plight of intellectual laziness, or the plight of valuing the inane, and not the plight of using a little calculator in the pursuit of a hobby.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

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On 3/22/2004 9:49:05 PM phoenixgirl wrote:






If we're going to jump into the icy waters to save somebody from a terrible plight, let it be the plight of intellectual laziness, or the plight of valuing the inane, and not the plight of using a little calculator in the pursuit of a hobby.
----------------

Oh no - Do I really have to give up the......inane??????/

Great post!

 

[aljdewey]

I got a PM tonight from someone containing the following excerpts of vitriol from the "other network".....




"A diamond must been seen and can't be opined on by a formula."


"Only someone who sees MILLIONS of diamonds can help guide you to picking a good stone"....


"Blah, blah, blah".




As far as I'm concerned, the above arguments are POINTLESS.




ANY of the tools out there have their limitations.....and those limitations are NO better or worse than the limitation of having to rely on the "word" of someone who stands to "profit" from your blind trust.




Because the originator of the above tripe is completely narrow-minded, he hasn't considered the following: the best person a consumer can put his trust/faith in is his independent appraiser.




The appraiser: 1) sees volumes of diamonds in person, 2) has appropriate training, and 3) has NO vested interest in the outcome. It's not his job to define beauty for us; just to make sure that we are indeed getting what we pay for.

 

[pqcollectibles]

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On 3/22/2004 9:02:28 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:


OK- maybe I am dense.

What exactly is the point?

The assistance of an 'expert appraiser' is reccomended. So you'd need to find an'expert appraiser' who uses or reccomends the HCA.- there's not a lot of those.


Now, everyone remember, this is a conspiracy. I work for Debeeeers and I'm singlehandedly trying to brainwash the world ( heheheh)


The truth is, I'm very passionate about diamonds- they've been my life and livelyhood.

I apologize to those who felt insulted because I gave my opinion. We actually all agree- because the HCA itself reccomends you find the proper expert.


When someone calls me asking for advice, I give it to the best of my ability.

Sure I want to sell diamonds, that's what I do for a living.


Of course the numbers mean something.

Before I see a diamond I might ask about the table and depth to get some idea. Yes, there are combinations which are bound to look horrible. But I've seen very nice stones with 80% depth.


If a radiant is cut well, and it's got an 80% depth, it might look very nice- I've seen stones with 80% depth that were quite attractive in terms of sparkle and life- albeit small for it's weight.


But say the buyer understands that they can actually own a 1.00 for the price of an .90, or even a .80's price, well that might make someone very happy. It look like an .80 costs like an .80, but it actually weighs 1.00carat- for some people that's a very important consideration.


I'm not in this thread for any other reason than I am saying what I believe. I honestly do not find value in the HCA.

Clearly, based on this argument, others find merit with it.

Can we simply agree to disagree about this particular subject?


I sincerly wish EVEYONE here on PS only the best.
----------------

I have worked very hard to stay outa this one, but cannot abide silence any longer.

You know, David, you are absolutely correct. There are buyers out there that will take a poorly cut 1 carat priced like a .8 or .9, that looks like a .8 or a .9, just to say their diamond is a 1 carat. For some people that is a very important consideration. Other people are into color and clarity. After all, to them, color and clarity is where it's at. Doesn't matter to them that the diamond does not sparkle and fire across the room for others to see. To those buyers all that matters is that they got their E, VVS1, or their precious D, IF. To each his own. For some of us consumers, CUT is all that and a bag of chips!

You say the GIA Cert provides all the necessary information to make an informed choice to screen a diamond. Table and depth %'s, girdle measurement, and an assessment of symmetry and polish are the only tools the consumer needs to use in screening diamonds. I can't believe, especially in light of the upcoming changes the GIA is making, that you feel knowing the table and depth %'s is all the information that is required. Didn't the GIA just complete an extensive study and release the news of changes to come in their Grading process??!! If the GIA will be using crown and pavillion information in the NEW Grading process, doesn't that give credibility to the importance of the information that the Sarin and the AGS is already providing, and the HCA uses??!!

The HCA isn't the only Cut grading tool available to consumers on the internet. There are others. If the idea of diamond screening programs that utilizie the same information is so ludicrous, why are software designers all around the world producing similar programs??!! And, what about the DiamCalc?? It's a sophisticated software program used by professionals for modeling diamonds based on angles and facets alignment in addition to table, depth and girdle information. Is the DiamCalc useless as well??!!

 

[Mara]

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On 3/23/2004 12:01:43 AM aljdewey wrote:







I got a PM tonight from someone containing the following excerpts of vitriol from the 'other network'.....

----------------

Damn. No one sends me vitriolic PM's. What am I doing wrong?

 

[Mara]

Speaking on the ....




"Only someone who sees MILLIONS of diamonds can help guide you to picking a good stone"....




Oh my...that is seriously laughable. That's funny. I haven't seen TWENTY stones in person and I help people daily on finding good stones. Stones that they see and fall in love with. Stones that appraise for almost twice what they paid online. Oh and I help them for free. Imagine that! I don't have any sort of vested interest in Pscope or touting the HCA or a promoting a vendor, or SELLING STONES...or anything. I don't bash the other forum, I don't bash other tools that I am just bitter I didn't come up with first...I only bash Tiffany and only then on Friday's.




It's very sad that those vocal detractors of a very good tool can't respect another colleague's work enough to leave it the hell alone. No one is saying the HCA is perfect. So get off the soap box already. However, someone is saying that ONLY people who have seen millions of diamonds can choose good ones. I have never heard a more ridiculous and ludicrous statetment in my entire life. Okay maybe I have. But that's a close second.




This sounds so good, I want to quote it again.




"Only someone who sees MILLIONS of diamonds can help guide you to picking a good stone...."




Does that sound like a VENDOR saying that? Oh no, could it be? Wait, a vendor would have maybe seen millions of diamonds (wow that is alot actually, do you get eye-strain?), so are they saying THEY could help you find a good stone? Wait, in THEIR inventory? Imagine that!! And they PM'd you!? Hey this is getting more familiar all the time. It was Colonel Mustard in the lavatory with a magazine!




Honestly, this is a droll argument. The bottom line is that people on Pscope go away happy for a reason. That happiness can NEVER be disputed by those who are only upset they didn't get the business. The fact is that numbers do help many people daily, the HCA does help people, as do BScopes, LScope,FScope,IScope, etc etc. Every tool has it's happy place in the Pscope family.




Those who are serious detractors of the HCA don't hang out here and spread their poison, and for a good reason. Lack of self-gratification?

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
.I only bash Tiffany and only then on Friday's. ---------------

Mara, I must take issue with this. You are an equal opportunity day of the week Tiffany basher. I want full discloser here.

If you have turned over a new leaf then you must wait til Friday to respond.

 

[fire&ice]

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On 3/22/2004 7:30:42 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:


p]But what would YOU do with a Sarin report? It's pretty much useless to a consumer unless they see the stone that goes with it--

What would *I*, a dopey stupid confused consumer, do with a Sarin report?

Well, first I would look at the table & depth % to see if they are in line with what I am looking for. Then I would look at the mm & the tightness of such. I would look at the girdle to make sure it is not too thin or too thick. I would look at the relationship between the crown & pavillion angles. I would gleen what the symmetry & polish is.

Then, if I like what I see, I'd take a look. Gee, silly consumer, why wouldn't I just look at the stones that a particular jeweler has guaranteed me is great. And, never look at any comparision stones.

Am I still confused David? Gee, all along I thought this was a logically approach.

 

[mike04456]

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On 3/23/2004 12:01:43 AM aljdewey wrote:







'Only someone who sees MILLIONS of diamonds can help guide you to picking a good stone'....

----------------

Doing a lot of business, in the end, says little or nothing about trustworthiness. "Someone who sees millions in diamonds" includes people like Fred Cuellar and Moti Weisbrot (the guy who got busted selling fracture-filled diamonds with fake GIA certs last year). People who trade illicit and conflict diamonds move millions every year too.

I respect David's opinions, but as he's already stated several times in several places that he prefers diamonds with 60:60 proportions (a perfectly valid preference), it's clear he's outside the current thinking on cut quality. So it's understandable that he rejects the HCA, which likely rejects the sorts of diamonds he prefers.

 

[Nicrez]

I have to admit, this is sort of silly, and of course I am now adding to it. Not a fan of other "diamond chat sites" as they are quite biased and their freedom of speech is very greatly limited. Oh, and the credit card thing.




That said, the HCA is just as useful to me as the AGA charts for the Radiant I have. I didn't use the HCA for my own use, but many times for a person looking at round stones. I HAVE seen many stones, maybe not as many as some jewelers, definately not as many as some gemologist, etc...




I trust NO ONE who stands to benefit from my purchasing their stones. If they are selling, they are suspect. They are even more suspect when they are secretive about reports, tests, etc. That may just be me...These jewelers (evan Tiffany'etc) carry all types of good/bad stones. That's the way it works. Almost no one with a tie to cutters and dealers gets only the "good stones" (some exceptions of course), and so you have to sell the dogs with the stars...How best to make money on a stone that you may have trouble selling? Create your own sales pitch, make this stone the end all be all...




I have used everything from the H&A viewer, the HCA, the AGAs, the I-Scope, Sarins, etc to see stones and compare various shapes. I think each tool built was built for a reason, and no one would go to the trouble of creating it just because it's a tool, but because it shows a measurable or visibile property of the diamond. The HCA is no different. It gives you numbers and data. It is up to the BUYER to determine what that means. Let's not demonize it as the end-all-be-all, or evil, just because it gives numbers. Many people bought outside the parameters of the HCA and are happy.




David, I understand that sometimes the buyer gets so confused that it's dangerous. I have seen that. IMHO, I know someone who got a princess with limited sparkle, but he knew the 4 C's. amd got an IF...Go him. IMO, you can never know enough to make the perfect decision, but you CAN know enough to make the best decision for yourself. Some people just want as much data to analyze themselves and determine their priorities. In the end, the happiest man with whatever diamond he chose is the winner right? I am not a fan of some shapes, but hey, if my friend got a Lozenge cut e-ring and thought that was the best thing since sliced bread, who cares what facts she determined to be the most important, or which cut, as long as she was happy.




The same argument is made for the RAP sheets, as a trap and all, but it seems to be so popular, because in this information age, people want to know MORE about cut and all the relevant factors before making such a huge purchase. In an age of growing dishonesty, people can only trust the information that is measured and proven, so if so many happy people have HCA approved stones, wouldn't that then be a positive trend?

 

[derekinla]

Nicrez,

I think you bring up a very good point. Unless a vendor were to specialize exclusively in super ideals, most vendors who sell a large volume of diamonds will have to sell the “stars” along with the “dogs.” The HCA is therefore a potential threat to most diamond vendors (both online and B&M’s) and their overall business. Imagine if Zales, Tiffany’s or Bluenile were to provide an HCA scores for all of their RB diamonds? Can you imagine the impact that would have on their sales? Remember, someone has to buy that “lovely” diamond with the 68% depth percentage. Vendors that participate in diamond discussion forums do so for a variety of reasons. Let’s not dilute ourselves here, “lending a helpful hand to the consumer” invariably intersects with self promotion and subtle sales tactics. It’s all business, plain and simple. In the world of medicine, we see similar problems: When the Pfizer sales rep advertises for the free “educational” seminar on erectile dysfunction at Spago’s in Beverly Hills, we all know which *blue pill* is going to be mentioned during the talk right? Levitra? Cialis? I don’t think so! That being said, I don’t think “educating the consumer” and making a sale are mutually exclusive. It’s just a delicate balancing act and consumers who participate or lurk on DT and PS need to be highly critical of the information being presented to them.

 

[angela]

"Sometimes it's OK to throw rocks at girls...as long as they sparkle! "



Nicrez - LOVE the new quote.

I'm a beginner. I've only been researching and learning about diamonds for about 5-6 months now, and I've been to quite a few websites in that amount of time.

In my search I took my little notepads to jewelers and wrote down all of the aspects of the stones I was looking at. I compared the data with what I was seeing and tried to determine what was most important to me in a stone because I didn't want to be pressured into buying something because it was "only a 1 day sale" or "someone else was in looking at this stone just before you," etc. Plus, I had the opportunity to get a stone from a family member, and wanted to do some more homework to see what my options were. After seeing these stones and making notes I plugged the numbers into the different programs out there to see what the results would be.

Bottom line for me, a consumer, was that as a tool the HCA did a pretty good job at weeding out the stones that I had seen that didn't perform quite as well in my eyes. I decided to buy online after dealing with some jewelers that I didn't find very appealing. Also, after the research I had done, I felt pretty confident about being able to get a beautiful stone online (and felt comfortable with the return policy if not!) I ended up with a stone that scored a 2.1 on the HCA, and the HCA was one tool of many that helped in narrowing down my decision. The ultimate deciding factor was how I felt about it when I saw it and went to compare it to other stones (knocked their socks off!) My $.02, in my limited experience, the numbers are one way for consumers to sort out what they do and do not prefer, and the more tools to aid in that area, the merrier.

I lurked around on both forums for a few months before ever posting, and I made my choice on where to post based on the climates I had been observing. To each his own, but I'd rather read a forum full of constructive and honest criticism rather than one where members belittle and attack others opinions. This thread (and the corresponding elsewhere) are a prime example of why I made the choice I did.

 

[Mara]

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On 3/23/2004 8:31:38 AM fire&ice wrote:

----------------
.I only bash Tiffany and only then on Friday's. ---------------

Mara, I must take issue with this. You are an equal opportunity day of the week Tiffany basher. I want full discloser here.

If you have turned over a new leaf then you must wait til Friday to respond.

----------------

It's only Tuesday!

 

[diamondsbylauren]

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On 3/23/2004 8:39:25 AM fire&ice wrote:

----------------
On 3/22/2004 7:30:42 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

But what would YOU do with a Sarin report? It's pretty much useless to a consumer unless they see the stone that goes with it--

What would *I*, a dopey stupid confused consumer, do with a Sarin report?

Well, first I would look at the table & depth % to see if they are in line with what I am looking for. Then I would look at the mm & the tightness of such. I would look at the girdle to make sure it is not too thin or too thick. I would look at the relationship between the crown & pavillion angles. I would gleen what the symmetry & polish is.

Then, if I like what I see, I'd take a look. Gee, silly consumer, why wouldn't I just look at the stones that a particular jeweler has guaranteed me is great. And, never look at any comparision stones.

Am I still confused David? Gee, all along I thought this was a logically approach.

----------------

So let me get this straight- You buy diamonds simply by looking at a Sarin report- never having seen the diamond? You are claiming that you can judge the beauty of a diamond by looking at a report, and NOT the diamond. My statement was- "It's pretty much useless to a consumer unless they see the stone that goes with it--"

I am attmepting to conduct a discussion in a civil courteous manner.

Calling yourself "dopey and stupid" seems far outside common courtesy.

 

[Nicrez]

David, I know you sell stones of all types. You guys were actually VERY courteous and helpful in my radiant search, so I give you credit all the way for that one!!! But I think when it came to shaped stones, you NEED to see the stones, regardless of Sarins.




I had a few radiants with Sarins, and although the numbers worked, the stone either had a fisheye or someother glaringly obvious mark or cut flaw we couldn't tolerate. Our visual standards were discriminating, and Sarins didn't cut it.




That in mind, how could we see EVERY radiant out there from Juno Alaska to Jupiter Florida? We seriously had to rely on the AGA charts and grading tools to WEED out the uglies. We did test the charts by looking at uglies and they truly did fall within the ranges. We also ended up getting a stone that solidly made it in the International Fine Cut section, and it's quite a dazzler!




Round stones are not AS tricky as shaped, because they have the most precision. That to me has been an undisputed fact. I think everyone will agree that is why the RB's have the best performance. That said, if the cuts and angles are well done and complimentary, the likelihood of the cut being excellent or even good is much higher. If the numbers are too far to one side or another, you can rule it out. A diamond is based on it's unique properties and the best way to extract those qualities visually is to have the stone cut within the most infantessimal amount of error on angles, etc. Sarins can help rule out obvious cutting errors or misproportions as quickly as a brief glance.




People here are smart enough to discern when something is off. There will be badly cut stones, even if they are cut round. I've seen them. I have even seen super achievers, next to the dogs and it's obvious. Oddly the dazzlers scored quite well on HCA. What I am saying is that this tool is just that, a tool, not a determinant. I would rather a G VS2 with a HCA score at 2.1, than a L I2 with an HCA of 1.0 anyday. Again, just because it scores well in HCA doesn't mean that that decides which one will be bought. A stone for every consumer dictates that even the "unattractively cut" stones will find homes, but for those purists who want tools to weed out the wastes of time, there are SO MANY RBs out there to see, that this truly helps.




I personally would love to make it my job to evaluate stones just on my eyes (for a living, so if anyone is hiring here), but reality dictates that NO ONE can see EVERY RB out there! Also, trusting the jeweler to find you the right stone, is like asking your mother-in-law to plan and create your whole wedding, sight unseen. Even being family, even most people I know would never venture THAT kind of trust for something that personal! (but God bless those who do!!!

)




Like LawGem, I am not sure of the exact principles at work in HCA, but I know it shows the best performers according to the mathematical proportions best suited for reflection and refraction, and I don't think it guarantees only the best stones, but I am sure that it saves the consumer time to see all the 40 "ugly" stones, when they are in a rush to get a well cut stone in less than 1 year of searching or less...

 

[diamondsbylauren]

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On 3/23/2004 11:53:19 AM LawGem wrote:

----------------
On 3/23/2004 12:01:43 AM aljdewey wrote:






----------------

I respect David's opinions, but as he's already stated several times in several places that he prefers diamonds with 60:60 proportions (a perfectly valid preference), it's clear he's outside the current thinking on cut quality. So it's understandable that he rejects the HCA, which likely rejects the sorts of diamonds he prefers.

----------------

This statement makes the INCORRECT assumption that all people in the diamond business feel that "ideal cut" is somehow "better" than 60/60.

Someone else wrote that anything put in black and white terms bears scrutiny. Calling "ideal cut" superior to a "perfect cut"- (60/60) is a perfect example of black and white thinking that does not work..

I know plenty of diamond dealers I respect who prefer 60/60- purely because we like the way it looks better than 57/61.

No one thinks it's at all funny that a nice 60/60 stone can be 20% LESS than an H&A?- could this have SOMETHING to do with this controversy?

Of course if you trust a machine more than your eyes, go blindly with an ideal cut and pay the difference.

PS- I would like to thank you aljdewey - for responding in a civil manner although we disagree.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

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On 3/23/2004 12:22:34 PM Nicrez wrote:







I trust NO ONE who stands to benefit from my purchasing their stones. If they are selling, they are suspect.



----------------

I'm very sorry if experinece in life has led you to such an extreme position.

Just becasue someone is in business, you somehow feel that by nature, they are trying to rip you off.

I prefer to find sellers I feel comfortable with.

If I approached every seller with your attitude, I don't think I'd find a lot of cooperative people.

 

[dberg]

Correct me if I'm wrong - David - but I believe that Fire&Ice said that she would use the Sarin report to weed out stones she was not interested in personally viewing - then she would view the ones she was interested in. Perhaps I have inferred to much into that statement. I get so easily confused when talking diamonds.

 

[Nicrez]

My father always said something I hold to this day very true.




"Trust is not something that is given to you automatically. Trust is something you earn."




That's in regards to those you don't know. If i have never dealt with someone before I will not take their word on a good stone, just because they said so. Today I went shopping for a camera battery charger from Canon. The man at a camera store near me said it was $99, and that's the price for it ANYWHERE I go. I logged onto Canon and they sell it for $45. Their authorized retailer sells it in their store for $39. Should I have trusted this man? Now mangify that purchase by at least 10X and that is a very similar scenario for SO many consumers out there buying diamonds.




Diamonds are a luxury that most people will spend lots of money on, but few people know the "value" of. It's a complex science to know what makes a good diamond cut, that even few seller of diamonds know themselves. Therefore, I am NOT sad that I adopt the trust is to be earned policy when it comes to my money. Everytime I "trust" someone, it's because they earn it.




I trust some vendors on PS, and some I don't. That's jjst MY personal experience, but just because they are on PS doesn't make me trust them. Just because you sell something doesn't mean you know enough about it to recommend it. At least 8 jewlers I met with knew LESS than I did regarding stones or radiants. Three offered me a job. Four others aksed if I was a GG. I would never trust these guys unless they proved they knew what they were talking about. If i was shopping for a H&A or RB, there are certain people and vndors on this forum I would trust implicitly to "choose the stone for me". Some of them have seen no more than 20 stones, but they have still gained my trust. But they have earned that trust.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 3/23/2004 4:40:53 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

PS- I would like to thank you aljdewey - for responding in a civil manner although we disagree.

----------------

David, don't thank me yet........you're about ready to push me over the edge into insanity.

For reasons that are beyond my comprehension, you seem to be WILLFULLY IGNORING the part of the post that you don't want to see....and I'd like to know why.

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On 3/23/2004 4:24:50 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

----------------
On 3/23/2004 8:39:25 AM fire&ice wrote:





Then, if I like what I see, I'd take a look----------------

So let me get this straight- You buy diamonds simply by looking at a Sarin report- never having seen the diamond?

----------------

I can only infer that this must be a deficiency in your reading comprehension skills, because you keep ignoring this. Everyone has said - REPEATEDLY - that they would use this information to "narrow the field", but would not BUY from the reports alone.

Look at her repsonse - IF it checked out nice by the numbers, THEN I'D TAKE A LOOK AT THE DIAMOND (that means PRE-PURCHASE, David.) And from that, you respond "You'd buy a diamond without seeing it?"

C'mon, David......I know you're a bright guy, so I don't really think you don't understand what's being written. That leaves me with the conclusion that you keep ignoring this part of it because it doesn't fit your argument.

What gives?

 

[diamondsbylauren]

My statement regarding a Sarin report was


It's pretty much useless to a consumer unless they see the stone that goes with it--

Fireand ice goes on to infer I somehow felt that she was stupid! Huh? A sarin report is useless to ANYONE needing to make a decision to buy a diamond UNLESS they see the diamond.

Yes, if you wanted to weed thru hundreds of stones, using the Sarin numbers would help you to eliminate dogs-

But from my experience, if I'm looking to buy a diamond and have to look at too many, Il get confused.

Now before anyone feels I'm calling them feeble or anything elese- I"M TALKING ABOUT MY EXPERIENCE. When I need to buy a diamond, and I'm forced to wade thru 100, I am not able to make an easy and comfortable decision.

Someone wrote it's preferable to buy from someone who buys millions of dollars worth of diamonds a year. This statement is met here by torrid argument- HOW DARE SHE SAY THAT?

Yet, another persopn who's seen barely 20 stones gives out "free advice" and help people get the stone of thier dreams.

If you look at it objectively, the person that has integrity and experience is going to offer more sound advice than someone who's diamond studies go as far as Pricescope, no?

 

[Nicrez]

Not if the experienced person's choices are motivated by their stock inventory and the PriceScope member has absolutely NO vested interest.




Another gem from good old dad, "Advice is as profitable as the motives behind it."




I believe in Confuscian it would be "He with something to sell, always have something to say."

 

[diamondsbylauren]

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On 3/23/2004 4:59:48 PM aljdewey wrote:

----------------
On 3/23/2004 4:40:53 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

PS- I would like to thank you aljdewey - for responding in a civil manner although we disagree.

----------------

David, don't thank me yet........you're about ready to push me over the edge into insanity.

For reasons that are beyond my comprehension, you seem to be WILLFULLY IGNORING the part of the post that you don't want to see....and I'd like to know why.

----------------
On 3/23/2004 4:24:50 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

----------------
On 3/23/2004 8:39:25 AM fire&ice wrote:





Then, if I like what I see, I'd take a look----------------

So let me get this straight- You buy diamonds simply by looking at a Sarin report- never having seen the diamond?

----------------

I can only infer that this must be a deficiency in your reading comprehension skills, because you keep ignoring this. Everyone has said - REPEATEDLY - that they would use this information to 'narrow the field', but would not BUY from the reports alone.

Look at her repsonse - IF it checked out nice by the numbers, THEN I'D TAKE A LOOK AT THE DIAMOND (that means PRE-PURCHASE, David.) And from that, you respond 'You'd buy a diamond without seeing it?'

C'mon, David......I know you're a bright guy, so I don't really think you don't understand what's being written. That leaves me with the conclusion that you keep ignoring this part of it because it doesn't fit your argument.

What gives?

----------------

I guess we're all just focusing on different issues here.

I guess I overlooked the usefulness of a Sarin to eliminate stones-

But what would YOU do with a Sarin report? It's pretty much useless to a consumer unless they see the stone that goes with it--

Fireand ice seemed to willfullyognore the last part of my statement.

We all agree that IF YOU WANT TO BUY ( not eliminate) a diamond, the report only has real value if one actually sees the diamond along with the Sarin- we all agree on this one.

In my opinion, a consumer is better served if they look at the report and the diamond with the help of a trusted dealer.

I'm not saying that "blind faith" is the answer.

As Nicrez says- trust must be earned- I agree 100%.

 

[Rank Amateur]

Pride and Prejudice.

 

[Mara]

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On 3/23/2004 5:02:25 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

Someone wrote it's preferable to buy from someone who buys millions of dollars worth of diamonds a year. This statement is met here by torrid argument- HOW DARE SHE SAY THAT?

Yet, another persopn who's seen barely 20 stones gives out 'free advice' and help people get the stone of thier dreams.

If you look at it objectively, the person that has integrity and experience is going to offer more sound advice than someone who's diamond studies go as far as Pricescope, no?

----------------

Spoken like a true vendor with stones to sell. That person who has integrity and experience wouldn't by chance be YOU now would it David?

People like you are people I would NEVER do business with. There is a reason why I left my offline jeweler who we have worked with for years and now SHIP my diamonds around the US in order to work with online vendors that I know and have earned my trust. Because I don't appreciate the supercilious and smug attitude that one who has been around the jewelry block a few times thinks that they have the right to affect when it comes to newly gained knowledge.

Because people like you and my offline jeweler don't treat my knowledge with respect, then I have no use for you. Because I have no use for anyone in my life, especially not someone I would ever spend a large amount of money with, who thinks that I am going to be too easily confused, or that a 'Pricescope education' isn't worth beans. I may not have a GG degree nor played with alot of stones through the years (sorry, let me run out and buy a store and then I'll get back to you, will I be qualified then?), but I know enough about numbers to be dangerous to vendors like you. And you hate it. You will NEVER see or respect my point of view because you are AFRAID. You and others know that the change is coming. You can't stop it. Find a way to accept it, and welcome it and figure out how to keep your higher margins and still play with the big boys. Good luck.

 

[glitterata]

David, for what seems like the fiftieth time:

The sarin report--or, better yet, the HCA--helps the consumer decide which stones NOT TO BOTHER LOOKING AT. Thus, if the numbers are bad, the sarin/hca score is helpful to the consumer WITHOUT HER NEEDING TO LOOK AT THE STONE IN QUESTION.

So, no. You're wrong. It's NOT the case that the Sarin is ONLY USEFUL IF SHE ALSO LOOKS AT THE STONE. The Sarin can help her decide NOT TO LOOK AT THE STONE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Forgive me for yelling. But you seem to be acting deaf.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

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On 3/23/2004 5:10:08 PM Nicrez wrote:







Not if the experienced person's choices are motivated by their stock inventory and the PriceScope member has absolutely NO vested interest.




Another gem from good old dad, 'Advice is as profitable as the motives behind it.'




I believe in Confuscian it would be 'He with something to sell, always have something to say.'

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With all due respect: I have feelings too- NEVER do I try to sell someone a diamond because it suits me.

I run my business to aid my clients.

Your statement would sem to indicate NO faith in the ability of people to sense whether a seller has integrity, or is just somene trying to "get rid if a piece of junk"

My whole point here is that folks will be better served using their judgment about human nature, then trying to be able to usefully interpret a Sarin report.

Learn , learn, learn- this is great for the consumer- and the honest seller- but don't make the mistake of believe you can become a diamond expert by participating in a forum

You also imply that someone selling from a list somehow has more integrity that a seller who's taken the investment to actually have the diamonds on hand- sorry, but that's just not the case.

Having the diamonds ( or not having them) does not remove a person's integrity.

 

[mike04456]

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On 3/23/2004 4:40:53 PM diamondsbylauren wrote:

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On 3/23/2004 11:53:19 AM LawGem wrote:

I respect David's opinions, but as he's already stated several times in several places that he prefers diamonds with 60:60 proportions (a perfectly valid preference), it's clear he's outside the current thinking on cut quality. So it's understandable that he rejects the HCA, which likely rejects the sorts of diamonds he prefers.

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This statement makes the INCORRECT assumption that all people in the diamond business feel that 'ideal cut' is somehow 'better' than 60/60.

I made no such assumption. Show me where it says "all" in that post. I only said the "current thinking," i.e., the people who are thinking about and studying cut quality. Most of this thinking is indeed confined to the realm of ideal proportions.

Someone else wrote that anything put in black and white terms bears scrutiny. Calling 'ideal cut' superior to a 'perfect cut'- (60/60) is a perfect example of black and white thinking that does not work..

I know plenty of diamond dealers I respect who prefer 60/60- purely because we like the way it looks better than 57/61.

So do I--which is why I said, if you will re-read my post, that 60:60 is a "perfectly valid preference."

No one thinks it's at all funny that a nice 60/60 stone can be 20% LESS than an H&A?- could this have SOMETHING to do with this controversy?

Of course if you trust a machine more than your eyes, go blindly with an ideal cut and pay the difference.

---------------

Again, please show me where I--or anyone else--is advocating blind purchases and trusting a machine more than the eye.

NO ONE is saying this. NO ONE. Not even Garry, who invented the HCA, suggests doing this. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

 

[glitterata]

And just to annoy you further, David, allow me to point out that the HCA doesn't automatically eliminate 60/60 stones.

It's picky about them, sure--it insists on your having good angles to go with them.

But for example, here's a set of measurements that gives a 1.2, all EXCELLENT score on the HCA:

Depth: 60 %
Table: 60 %
Crown angle: 34
Pavilion angle: 40.5
Culet: 0 %

 

[diamondsbylauren]

gee mara,


I guess I need to give away the a 10 carat D/Flawless I was going to give you! ( hehehe)


I'm sorry you don't like me. I try very hard to do the right thing by everyone we deal with.


Folks will choose whoever they want. If one expects everyone to like them, they are bound for dissapointent.








For people who wants to choose a diamond dealer educated here on PS , well, here you guys are!