"Why I Was Wrong About Welfare Reform"

[ruby59]

I think a number of intelligent articulate people here do get it
_______________________________

Yes, intelligent people do get it. We know from the experience of living that merely handing things to people does nothing but make their lives stagnant which is then repeated by the next generation.

Your children observe what you do. If they see when adversity strikes you work even harder they will do the same to improve their lives and the lives of their children.

But if they see you are not going to lift a finger to improve your life and theirs, then .........

 

[Elizabeth35]

This is clearly a volatile subject about which people have passionate opinions---on both sides.

As a landlord who rents to many Section 8 (subsidized) tenants, I have seen firsthand what their lives are like. Many also get Medicaid and food stamps. It's not pretty. Almost all single mothers with anywhere from 2-8 children. Some are 2nd/3rd generation welfare/subsidized housing recipients. They are virtually all disadvantaged educationally, some are practically unemployable.

What I do see in most of them is that they sincerely want to better the odds for their children. They may not be doing a great job at it and they may have too many kids. But many have moved from inner city Chicago to the suburbs to try to get their kids a better education and away from the gangs and violence of the city. Most of them want a better life for their kids and themselves. Most are trying to improve their job training so they can earn more. Some have succeeded and left the Section 8 program when they earn enough.


How would you or I do if we were raised in poverty (and violence) by a single parent, with a subpar education and perhaps no HS diploma?
How about if your only parent had a drug/drinking/abuse issue?
How would we do if we had absolutely no examples of work ethic, no father figure and no example of financial responsibility?

Are some of them gaming the system? Yep, probably.
Sure--we see Grey Goose bottles, lots of purchased movies and other examples of bad spending habits. But you probably don't learn much about financial planning where these people were raised. And maybe that vodka or delivered pizza is the only bright spot in an otherwise bleak existence. Who am I to judge?

I don't think there is any solution that will guarantee that nobody takes advantage.
I accept that. Don't like it as a taxpayer but it will probably never be perfect.

But---every child should have access to a good education and enough food and medical care in this country.
We need to do a better job helping these people get out of the cycle and that means birth control/abortions need to free/accessible.
I think many of these people would benefit from some consumer/financial/budgeting help.

It's time to stop the us vs. them mindset---let's focus on solutions (including those that will reduce fraud) rather than demonizing someone who is disadvantaged.


End of rant

 

[ruby59]

How would you or I do if we were raised in poverty (and violence) by a single parent, with a subpar education and perhaps no HS diploma?
How about if your only parent had a drug/drinking/abuse issue?
How would we do if we had absolutely no examples of work ethic, no father figure and no example of financial responsibility?
_______________________________________________________

Many come from poverty and dysfunctional homes, but they manage to work hard and make it out of that life.

As far as a good education for all, I absolutely agree. But what do you do when some come to school and refuse to take that education seriously or others that are constantly truant? You can only offer something, but you need someone on the other end willing to receive it.

 

[AGBF]

As far as your last comment about children, after 1 it is not a mistake. It is an attitude that many on welfare take.

There is no welfare. I've been saying this in Pricescope threads since 1996. Or at least since I joined!

 

[Calliecake]

Thank you for your post Elizabeth.

Ruby, Can you understand any of what Elizabeth stated in her post? The lack of compassion and empathy in your post really bothers me. Yes some people do a better job of turning there life around than others. I will give you that but can you understand how difficult it would be for someone who has been brought up in the environment Elizabeth described to turn their life around? Can you even imagine how difficult everyday would be?

 

[Elizabeth35]

How would you or I do if we were raised in poverty (and violence) by a single parent, with a subpar education and perhaps no HS diploma?
How about if your only parent had a drug/drinking/abuse issue?
How would we do if we had absolutely no examples of work ethic, no father figure and no example of financial responsibility?
_______________________________________________________

Many come from poverty and dysfunctional homes, but they manage to work hard and make it out of that life.

As far as a good education for all, I absolutely agree. But what do you do when some come to school and refuse to take that education seriously or others that are constantly truant? You can only offer something, but you need someone on the other end willing to receive it.

I thought we were discussing entitlement programs, not truancy among economically disadvantaged youths.
Truancy is handled by the school districts in my area, along with Police Department cooperation.

But yes, economically disadvantaged students have higher truancy rates. That is a separate complex issue.
I would challenge you to live in a poor neighborhood in Chicago and attend school for a few weeks. See how safe and motivated you feel to better yourself. I am not being flip---I am serious. The world is a pretty scary place in some areas. Don't judge these kids for their truancy now.

I don't like how are entitlement programs are working now, but consistently pointing the finger at all entitlement recipients and demonizing them is not constructive.

 

[ruby59]

The lack of compassion and empathy in your post really bothers me.
_______________________________________

I have plenty of compassion for the sick and the disabled and the elderly.

And for the woman who Elizabeth is referencing.

And yes some do a better job than others. But some refuse to even try.

Those are the ones that should bother you, not that middle class tax payers are getting tired of it.

 

[ruby59]

I thought we were discussing entitlement programs, not truancy among economically disadvantaged youths.
Truancy is handled by the school districts in my area, along with Police Department cooperation.
______________________________________________________

Who do you think are tomorrow's welfare recipients?

And I was referencing another posters comment that all youth are entitled to a good education, which I totally agreed with.
But I saw it in my own school system when my children attended. Some refuse to take school seriously. Make it almost impossible for others to learn. Then the teachers are blamed. And then I am supposed to feel bad for them when they cannot support themselves later in life.

And I am not talking about those with learning disabilities.

 

[Elizabeth35]

I'm glad you have compassion for the elderly, sick and disabled. Some of my Section 8 tenants have all of those disadvantages.

“When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself.” ~ Wayne Dyer

 

[ruby59]

Aren't you judging me right now for my views?

 

[Elizabeth35]

Not at all--I honestly think it is unfortunate that you have not been exposed to a cross-section of entitlement recipients.
Because while there are some bad apples--there are also many people struggling to better themselves, or who are simply the victim of bad luck, job loss, health issues, etc.
They are not all the same. Just like we aren't.

And to categorize them as all the same and blame them for not bettering themselves (or trying harder) is judgmental.


You are free to have your opinion. That is the beauty of the US.

I hope you or a loved one is never in the unfortunate position of needing help.
If you do, I will not look at you and resent you as a lesser person. You will simply be someone who needs help.

I am very interested in what you think the solution is?
How would you improve our entitlement programs and reduce fraud?

 

[ruby59]

Not at all--I honestly think it is unfortunate that you have not been exposed to a cross-section of entitlement recipients.
Because while there are some bad apples--there are also many people struggling to better themselves, or who are simply the victim of bad luck, job loss, health issues, etc.
They are not all the same. Just like we aren't.

And to categorize them as all the same and blame them for not bettering themselves (or trying harder) is judgmental.

___________________________________________________________

I am doing nothing of the sort. Someone even criticized me for being racist because the typical welfare recipient is SUPPOSED to be black.

This all started because I criticized the woman in the article who had 4 children (the woman was white by the way) and people were suggesting that we should feel sorry for her. According to them, apparently, having 4 children when she did not have a stable life was out of her control.

As far as not being exposed to a cross section of people, I worked in a city School Department for years. Believe me, I saw it all.

 

[Elizabeth35]

I guess I have accepted that as human beings, some people are responsible, and some people make incredibly poor decisions.
So we agree on this. We have a tenant who just had her 7th child.
Why? God only knows.
I know we cannot legislate common sense and fiscal responsibility.

So what is the answer?
How do you propose we reform entitlement programs?
How do we ensure these children being born have the best possible chance of becoming employed, tax paying citizens?

 

[ruby59]

So what is the answer?
How do you propose we reform entitlement programs?
How do we ensure these children being born have the best possible chance of becoming employed, tax paying citizens?

________________________________________________

If there were an easy answer I am sure someone would have come up with it a long time ago.

And all I can say is the only way I know of to reform entitlement programs is to be ever vigilant and act immediately when people are abusing it.

As I said part of my husband's job as a CPA is to audit some of these programs to make sure the money is going where it is needed.
For years, he told superiors that EBT cards were being used in liquor stores, at porno shops, and casinos. Well it took years, for the government of my state to finally do something about it. Why the need for all the legislation to finally stop it. How much of our tax dollars were wasted in the meantime?

http://turnto10.com/i-team/nbc-10-i-team-ri-welfare-recipients-withdraw-cash-at-liquor-stores-bars-casinos

 

[Dancing Fire]

How would you or I do if we were raised in poverty (and violence) by a single parent, with a subpar education and perhaps no HS diploma?
How about if your only parent had a drug/drinking/abuse issue?
How would we do if we had absolutely no examples of work ethic, no father figure and no example of financial responsibility?

It's time to stop the us vs. them mindset---let's focus on solutions (including those that will reduce fraud) rather than demonizing someone who is disadvantaged.

So it is the society's fault that these people are living in poverty generation after generation? ... If the liberals stop making excuse after excuse for these people they might have a chance to work their way out of poverty.

 

[Dancing Fire]

How would you or I do if we were raised in poverty (and violence) by a single parent, with a subpar education and perhaps no HS diploma?
How about if your only parent had a drug/drinking/abuse issue?
How would we do if we had absolutely no examples of work ethic, no father figure and no example of financial responsibility?
_______________________________________________________

Many come from poverty and dysfunctional homes, but they manage to work hard and make it out of that life.

As far as a good education for all, I absolutely agree. But what do you do when some come to school and refuse to take that education seriously or others that are constantly truant? You can only offer something, but you need someone on the other end willing to receive it.

Yup!,

 

[Elizabeth35]

Could you please elaborate on your solution of working your way out of poverty?

I am very interested in your detailed explanation as to how someone born in a 3rd generation entitlement situation, in a gang-ridden environment, poor public schools, bad family structure is to work their way out.
Please use a real-life example that acknowledges that the person probably has bad nurture and bad nature (i.e.. not so great education and not great parental nurturing).

I fully realize that some people do persevere and make their way out. But to suggest that this is the norm is ill-informed and childish reasoning.
Let's talk real world and also come up with realistic solutions---not blame.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thank you for your post Elizabeth.

Ruby, Can you understand any of what Elizabeth stated in her post? The lack of compassion and empathy in your post really bothers me. Yes some people do a better job of turning there life around than others. I will give you that but can you understand how difficult it would be for someone who has been brought up in the environment Elizabeth described to turn their life around? Can you even imagine how difficult everyday would be?

Yes!, My parents been there, done that w/o being able to speak a single word of English. I wish the liberals would stop making excuses for those Americans who were born here in the US, if my non speaking English parents can make it w/o depending on social programs so can Americans who were born in US. My parents were not rich when they retired but they did save enough money for d/p on a $17K home (in 1971) by working 12 hr days in a Chinese restaurant kitchen.

My non English speaking FIL and MIL also had to work 12 hr days to support 7 kids. My FIL work in a Chinese restaurant as a cook and MIL work inside a car garage (over 105 degree) folding fortune cookies by hand.

http://www.terragalleria.com/california/picture.usca34350.html

Back in the 70's it was shameful for Chinese immigrants to go on welfare, but now it has become an entitlement for many Americans...

 

[Matata]

The best place to start fixing the poverty problem is to empower the poverty stricken to invest in their lives and neighborhoods. Sometimes the best way to do that is within. Look at what one person can accomplish http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/avalon-village-highland-park-shu-harris_us_5768ff0ee4b0fbbc8beb8d37 Imagine what more like her could do. I hope Shu Harris takes off like a tidal wave and and is able to take what she learns from her experiment out into other areas.

 

[ruby59]

I am very interested in your detailed explanation as to how someone born in a 3rd generation entitlement situation, in a gang-ridden environment, poor public schools, bad family structure is to work their way out.
_________________________________________________

Why are all these kids being born in the first place.

Children in unstable environments having children.

Children having children at 16. She is a grandma at 32. Great grandma by the age of 50.

4 generations on welfare.

A set up to failure.

But a 16 year old that can stay in school, go to a public college or junior college will have much better odds.

 

[nkarma]

ow did your son pay for:
his transportation out of state including car, gas, bus, etc...
his transporation to/from work before first paycheck
his interview suit
the clothes he wears to work
a roof over his head until his first paycheck
his computer to write his resume and apply for his job
his internet bill, phone, and electricity bill to communicate with the companies he interviewed with
food to keep him alive/focused
his college education that got him the interview and the job
all of the above after is first paycheck if it was less than the living wage
all of the above if after his first paycheck and he had children (cause God forbid, he made a mistake like humans tend to do)

__________________________________________________________

All of my children did exactly what their parents did before them, they started working at age 15. All got after school, Saturday, and summer jobs. And saved every penny.

Also, all my children worked their tails off at school and graduated in the top 10 of their class. So they got academic scholarships. And as much as 2 of them would have loved to experience dorm life, they lived at home and commuted to save money.

As far as your last comment about children, after 1 it is not a mistake. It is an attitude that many on welfare take.

But the hostile tone of your comments is amusing. Yes, we were there for our children as our parents were for us.

However, we did not hand over everything to them on a silver platter. Far from it. They were expected to do their part. And that is what they did. They earned what they have.

Hi Ruby,

You're right when you read my tone, it's not friendly kind or helpful. Apologies.

My post was not at all intended to say that you spoiled your kids in anyway. It was to point out that your son had opportunities, money, health, education, etc... that a vast majority of impoverished people don't. Therefore, the expectation that they should do exactly as your son did is like telling a fish he should fly because the bird over there is flying.

Anyways, I appreciate your viewpoint. I know millions of people agree with you and we all need to find a way to work together with everyone's viewpoints taken into account. My own mother feels exactly the same as you and we have lots of interesting constructive conversations about personal responsibility etc... To me the saddest thing is that she herself is a victim of that thinking. She's 62, works herself to death (literally while she had a brain tumor) so she could keep her healthcare coverage. She works 50 hours a week at $13-14/ hour and has spent the last decade moving every 6 months to "live" with someone who will take her in because her income will not cover rent + food + utlities + gas + clothes. This has sometimes included living with opiate addicts and mentally unstable people. She hasn't had a home of her own in over a decade and takes a lot of pride in her hardwork for the company she's been with 20 years. To me it would be great if at a minimum the US had public healthcare so she could have gone to school or taken more short term risks that she would have been able to train/prepare for a long term better paying career. But when you are living paycheck to paycheck and need to go to the doctor regularly, there's no spare money to do that. But I understand the thinking is you get what you worked for.

 

[nkarma]

I am very interested in your detailed explanation as to how someone born in a 3rd generation entitlement situation, in a gang-ridden environment, poor public schools, bad family structure is to work their way out.
_________________________________________________

Why are all these kids being born in the first place.

Children in unstable environments having children.

Children having children at 16. She is a grandma at 32. Great grandma by the age of 50.

4 generations on welfare.

A set up to failure.

But a 16 year old that can stay in school, go to a public college or junior college will have much better odds.

Great! How do we keep 16 year olds in school at all costs?!

 

[Calliecake]

. Why are all these kids being born in the first place.


Just a thought... maybe because they can't afford birth control. But then again republicans don't feel that should be made readily available at no charge for women. And heaven forbid they become pregnant and realize they are in no position to raise a child. The republicans want to force them to have the child and feel as a society, we should not help.

Ruby you were comparing your children to children who grow up in impoverished areas. Your children had both you and your husband as parents. Ding, Ding, Ding!!!! Yet you fail to see that your children grew up with the foundation children need to be successful. They were supported, nutured and taught the tools needed to be a successful adult. Pat yourself on the back you were also obviously a good role model. This isn't rocket science. Why can't you see that your children started out of the gate with every advantage these poor children never had. Your children knew they were loved and safe. They knew their next meal would be there for them. They were not left alone because their mother had to work two jobs to support them while their father had not been a part of their life. Or worse yet had a parent who was not around because they were a drug addict or an alcoholic. Your lack of compassion just boggles my mind.

 

[House Cat]

I am very interested in your detailed explanation as to how someone born in a 3rd generation entitlement situation, in a gang-ridden environment, poor public schools, bad family structure is to work their way out.
_________________________________________________

Why are all these kids being born in the first place.

Children in unstable environments having children.

Children having children at 16. She is a grandma at 32. Great grandma by the age of 50.

4 generations on welfare.

A set up to failure.

But a 16 year old that can stay in school, go to a public college or junior college will have much better odds.

I will explain something that I thought was common sense...

When a child grows up in a home that lacks one of the primary parents, it is common for that child to seek out the comfort of the opposite sex very early in life. It is VERY common for a fatherless daughter to seek out male companionship and sex at a young age because she is soothing the wound of fatherlessness.

When a parent abandons a child, that child will lack that sense of self preservation which would usually lead to the use of birth control. They are also left with a huge gaping hole in their hearts that they try to fill with boyfriends, girlfriends, sex, promiscuity, drugs, alcohol, etc. This is just the way it is. It is very difficult to feel worth a damn when one of the people who were supposed to love you most in the world leaves you forever.

Parental abandonment breeds this sort of behavior.

I know you like to throw out the exception to the rule and tell me about how "many" or "some" people will not behave in this manner, but I am telling you how "most" people will behave. There will always be exceptions to any rule, but they are just that...exceptions.

This is your answer to why these children are born in the first place. Another reason may be that it is God's will for these children to be born.

 

[ruby59]

My post was not at all intended to say that you spoiled your kids in anyway. It was to point out that your son had opportunities, money, health, education, etc... that a vast majority of impoverished people don't. Therefore, the expectation that they should do exactly as your son did is like telling a fish he should fly because the bird over there is flying
_______________________________________________________

My mother grew up during the Great Depression. They created their own opportunities and instilled it in their children.

My father died when I was 12, and my mom had a sort of nervous breakdown for a time.

So my sisters, brother, and I had to take care of her. There was no money coming in, so we all worked after school, to keep the family going. Going on welfare was never an option for us.

And then when we got married and had children we taught them the same.

Opportunities are made in many families, not given.

My siblings and I could have easily given up and had someone care for us. But we wanted better in life, and worked hard to get it.

As far as you mom, my husband and I are in the same situation. He and I would both love to retire soon, but I doubt that will happen for a long time. Due to the differences in our ages, he needs to keep working to pay for my medical insurance, as I can only work part time.

 

[ruby59]

I will explain something that I thought was common sense...

When a child grows up in a home that lacks one of the primary parents, it is common for that child to seek out the comfort of the opposite sex very early in life. It is VERY common for a fatherless daughter to seek out male companionship and sex at a young age because she is soothing the wound of fatherlessness.
____________________________________________

Read my last post. My father died, and my mom checked out for quite a bit of time.

To preserve the family, none of us had time for any of that.

It certainly does not have to be a given. In fact it should be the opposite. Don't make the same mistake.

We need to instill that in our young, not find excuses for them.

 

[ruby59]

Just a thought... maybe because they can't afford birth control.
_______________________________________

There is a very easy and $0 cost way to not having any more children.

Women who do not want to make a bad situation even worse just stop having intercourse.

Drastic, yes. But if it is your only alternative ........

 

[ruby59]

I did want to make one last comment.

Why are none of you responding about the link I posted about people abusing their EBT cards.

The beginning of this discussion dealt with how we should all feel bad for children that are going hungry, yet their parents are using their food stamps to play at slot parlors or in liquor stores.

So the taxpayers are feeding their children breakfast, lunch, and in many cases dinner, and still giving them money to buy food. So since we are feeding them anyway, I guess they feel they can use these cards for their own personal use.

Where is the outrage at that?

 

[chrono]

What is the ratio or percentage of those who use welfare as intended versus those who abuse it? Are there any unbiased websites or organizations that track this? It is easy to say "so and so said" or "I saw x, y, and z" but that is a very small sample size. If the ratio is small, then at least it is beneficial to the people it is intended for but until we know the true extent of the abuse, who's to say welfare or social assistance is / isn't working?

 

[ruby59]

What is the ratio or percentage of those who use welfare as intended versus those who abuse it? Are there any unbiased websites or organizations that track this? It is easy to say "so and so said" or "I saw x, y, and z" but that is a very small sample size. If the ratio is small, then at least it is beneficial to the people it is intended for but until we know the true extent of the abuse, who's to say welfare or social assistance is / isn't working?
_______________________________________________________

And this is why the abuse went on for so long in my home state before they finally passed legislation to stop it.