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"Why Chinese mothers are superior"

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kenny

kenny

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What is wrong with playdates?
 
yeah, i disagree with most of that article.

it is a very narrow minded approach to parenting, and it demands excellence in only those areas where they deem importance. so gym and drama = not important. there goes the next generation of sportsmen and women and thespians then.

and so you can play the violin to concert level? well, unless you are a concert violinist, then it's still just a hobby. and no one is going to care about your millions of A+s on every little test, just your college degree (if even that)

you can't use the same method to raise every single child. some children will thrive in this scenario, others will be scarred forever.

ok, i'll get off the soapbox now! :sun:
 
In hindsight, I do wish my mother had pushed us harder in music...but we exhausted her. It takes an enormous amount of stamina to be the type of mother the author describes.
 
oh, and these mothers are not so selfless, working so hard only for the good of their children

they like to boast about the achievements of their children as much as the next mother....
 
I'm honestly not even sure where to start. I am a "Western" parent and to some extent, I agree with the author that many parents are too easy on their children, either because it's easier than fighting with them or because we don't want to push too hard. I get the point about loving something and being proud about it once you've mastered it, which takes practice, but I would draw the line at belittling the child and tearing them down in order to build them up.

As for not allowing playdates, participation in school plays, camp or the like, I think that there's something to be said for letting kids be kids....they'll have to grow up and take on adult responsibility soon enough. I would counter that many kids who've been raised with "Chinese" mothers are somewhat one dimensional. They haven't been given the chance to explore their own likes/dislikes...if you don't try something, how can you know if you like it or not?

Raising my kids is the hardest thing I've ever done. It was much easier to manage teams of 50 people to complete multi million dollar projects. I DO second guess myself a lot...I refuse to let my kindergartener watch Hannah Montana because I think that it's entirely inappropriate. However, many of the kids in his class do watch it and when they sing the songs or talk about the episodes, he is completely left out. I worry that I'm going to ostracize him when I make choices like this, even though I feel strongly that I'm "right". My parents came for dinner the other night and we were watching my nieces while my sister and BIL were on a trip. After watching me jump up and down about 20 times to get one kid more ice in her water and one kid more ketchup for the 3rd time, my father commented that we cater to our kids way more than he and my Mom catered to us. He's got a point. I tend to bend over backwards to keep the piece over certain things that I deem unimportant in the scheme of things (i.e. who cares if my 4 year old wears the strangest outfit on earth to pre-school??)....I try to fight only the battles that matter to me, like being respectful and kind. If I were to follow a more "Chinese" approach, these battles would all be moot. Would I be happier? Would my kid? I just don't know....
 
I'm very interested in this conversation. I'm not Chinese, but that is very much the upbringing I had in the 60s and 70s. What is being described is how American children are raised now--the description is not true of my generation or my parents' generation.
 
this article is just presenting one extreme.

the "extreme" end of so-called western parenting also possible.

we need to reach a middle ground.

we are human and fallible.

we will never get it 100% right, 100% of the time.

i think it's really stupid to call one method of parenting completely superior to another.
 
I think this article raises very important issues for all parents today.
How hard should parents push kids, for their own good.
Are todays western parents lacking backbone discussed here?

This is NOT a discussion of race or ethnicity because she made the point that she is using the term "Chinese mother" to describe values, attitudes and behavior that can be demonstrated by mothers of any country and some mothers who are in fact Chinese do NOT fit her description of the term "Chinese mothers".
 
In some film I saw recently there was a boy nursing on his mother.
The boy was WAY too old to be nursing, maybe 6 or something.
He was standing up nursing while the mother was seated.

The mother said something like, "My husband and I don't believe in saying, "No" to our children."

To me that scene summed up the problem perfectly.

I'm not a parent so I should shut up but I see parenting as a battle with the kids fighting for all the things that they should not have.
Parents just burn out and give in.
I see mothers at the store reasoning with two year olds.
 
hmm.

i think there's a difference between good old fashioned discipline, and hard core pushing, pushing all the time.

i'm all for the former, and not for the latter.

seriously, it flabbergasts me when i see a pushy mum berating a child who blatantly hates the piano and is never even going to get to play at a decent level. what is the point in this?
 
kenny|1294601390|2818281 said:
Don't blame me; those are not my words.
That's the headline of this fascinating Wall Street Journal article.
It really got me thinking . . . so I thought some of you might be interested too.

BTW, the author IS a Chinese mother.

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754-lMyQjAxMTAxMDAwNzEwNDcyWj.html
Click to expand...

Hey! Where is the credit to me for having quoted this article on Pricescope in the first place!!!???

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/america-versus.154596/page-3']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/america-versus.154596/page-3[/URL]

Deb/AGBF
:read:
 
Sorry.
I don't open every thread.

My bad.
 
All I know is that I am so glad I didn't grow up in this household and am really glad my children don't have to grow up like that. It reminds me of when I was a teacher and the first week we sent a paper home for the kids to fill out. One of the questions said "I want to be blank when I grow up". The little boy said fire fighter and the parents (not Chinese btw) erased it and made him write President of the United States. Gross. I felt really sorry for that boy and the pressures he had to deal with at age 5. I would wonder about suicide rates for these children. To be verbally abused and called "fatty" and "garbage" is no way to have to grow up. So sad.

eta: With the tone of this lady, you have to wonder about the presence of physical abuse as well. Something tells me she didn't do a simple time out for disobedience.
 
yennyfire|1294603894|2818307 said:
As for not allowing playdates, participation in school plays, camp or the like, I think that there's something to be said for letting kids be kids....they'll have to grow up and take on adult responsibility soon enough. I would counter that many kids who've been raised with "Chinese" mothers are somewhat one dimensional. They haven't been given the chance to explore their own likes/dislikes...if you don't try something, how can you know if you like it or not?
quote]

Yennyfire - I agree with you and want to add, it's not just "letting kids be kids," but having the social skills necessary to make it in our society. Of course I want my kids to hang out with friends and play, but as they get older and enter the work force, they're going to have to interact with many sorts of people and to isolate kids from that learning experience is wrong, IMO. A few years back, I talked to one of my son's teachers and she told me that she didn't think my son would thrive in a specific program BECAUSE he wouldn't have any friends in that program. She is not the only teacher who feels this way. THEY all feel social capabilities are just as important as academic.
Click to expand...
 
kenny|1294605246|2818318 said:
I think this article raises very important issues for all parents today.
How hard should parents push kids, for their own good.
Are todays western parents lacking backbone discussed here?
This is NOT a discussion of race or ethnicity because she made the point that she is using the term "Chinese mother" to describe values, attitudes and behavior that can be demonstrated by mothers of any country and some mothers who are in fact Chinese do NOT fit her description of the term "Chinese mothers".
Click to expand...

I think society as a whole has taught kids that they can walk all over their parents. Many of the kids' shows out there have the kids ruling the house. I was very disturbed by a book my son brought home about a group of children at an elementary school who took over and rebelled against their 5th grade teachers and WON. I didn't want to tell my son that the book wasn't appropriate because I'm encouraging him to read. So then what? He brings home another book by the same author and AGAIN the book is about a young girl who causes anarchy among the ranks. Both have five stars on amazon. Ugh!

I'll have to tell him not to read that author again!
 
Interesting article Kenny, I enjoyed reading it. I think I also can understand it better having lived to some extent, the eastern perspective on parenting.

This probably works great in China. The problem is when you try to parent the way the author does in a western world.

I do believe expectations are set extremely high in many, many asian families. I told the PS moms the other day that I was asked what I felt was a nutty question the other day when my friend's DH asked me when I planned to teach Amelia multiplication. I told him I learned in 3rd grade so around then. He said he planned to teach them to his son at age 4-5. I asked him what's the point? He asked me, what's the harm? So the debate started. His argument was that drill and practice was crucial to academic success. My point was that I believed delayed gratification and impulse control were important. The answer probably is somewhere in the middle, and I'll spare you the details of the rest of the debate.

Many asians want to raise an excellent INDIVIDUAL, which I find interesting consider we're such a unit centered society (in Korean, you say "our mother", not "my" mother, even if you are an only child). I think western society, you want to raise someone who can benefit society, have independence and think big and for herself. It's more outside the box compared to eastern culture, and I think these are the children who end up changing the world.
 
TravelingGal|1294610218|2818373 said:
I do believe expectations are set extremely high in many, many asian families. I told the PS moms the other day that I was asked what I felt was a nutty question the other day when my friend's DH asked me when I planned to teach Amelia multiplication. I told him I learned in 3rd grade so around then. He said he planned to teach them to his son at age 4-5. I asked him what's the point? He asked me, what's the harm? So the debate started. His argument was that drill and practice was crucial to academic success. My point was that I believed delayed gratification and impulse control were important. The answer probably is somewhere in the middle, and I'll spare you the details of the rest of the debate.

.
Click to expand...

Is the child going to be put in private school? One child in my son's kindergarten class was reading two grade levels ahead of all of the *highest-level readers* (kindergarten students at a 1st grade level - so he was 3rd grd level) and the mom ended up having to regularily come into class to promote her son's growth because the teacher didn't have time to assist the kid. All the para-educators were there to help the kids that were behind.

If a parent is going to make it a point to teach their child at a higher skill level, they do need to understand that it's a long-term commitment, not something they do in their free time and then expect the school system to take over.
 
MC|1294611312|2818392 said:
TravelingGal|1294610218|2818373 said:
I do believe expectations are set extremely high in many, many asian families. I told the PS moms the other day that I was asked what I felt was a nutty question the other day when my friend's DH asked me when I planned to teach Amelia multiplication. I told him I learned in 3rd grade so around then. He said he planned to teach them to his son at age 4-5. I asked him what's the point? He asked me, what's the harm? So the debate started. His argument was that drill and practice was crucial to academic success. My point was that I believed delayed gratification and impulse control were important. The answer probably is somewhere in the middle, and I'll spare you the details of the rest of the debate.

.
Click to expand...

Is the child going to be put in private school? One child in my son's kindergarten class was reading two grade levels ahead of all of the *highest-level readers* (kindergarten students at a 1st grade level - so he was 3rd grd level) and the mom ended up having to regularily come into class to promote her son's growth because the teacher didn't have time to assist the kid. All the para-educators were there to help the kids that were behind.

If a parent is going to make it a point to teach their child at a higher skill level, they do need to understand that it's a long-term commitment, not something they do in their free time and then expect the school system to take over.
Click to expand...

MC, EXACTLY. Here's part of my email to him when the discussion turned to email a few days later. I found the state standards which showed that multiplication is in the 3rd grade curriculum. His goal was to teach both his kids how to read and do multiplication before entering first grade.


"As you can see, my memory was not faulty. Multiplication is taught in the THIRD grade. I fully recall learning them the summer before, as I did actually know them before they were taught. What you are proposing then, is that you are going to teach D post KINDERGARTEN.

Then, please tell me, what will he be doing in school for grades 1 and 2 during math time, because I will assume he knows how to count, add and subtract? I was talking to a friend of mine about this and he has a friend who is a teacher. He made a good point that if the child is too advanced, he may get less attention from the teacher, as she focuses on students who need to learn the skills. I would imagine then, that a child who knows everything might get bored, and therefore become a distraction, thus leading potentially to behavioral issues.

As for reading, it IS common for children to know how to read in Kindergarten, and it is indeed TAUGHT by Grade 1. Multiplication is not TAUGHT for another 2 years (a huge measure of growth for children of that age). Whether or not our education system sucks and is behind isn’t the point…unless you move to another country where kids are taught 19x19 by age 5, YOUR kid will be taught by the standards of THIS state."
 
I'm not bothered by the article and, in fact, agree with some of the author's points. It's easy to be offended by her words because we are so indoctrinated into our own culture it is difficult to comprehend this way of parenting. My husband was parented similarly (minus the focus on music and he did play w/ friends, but "playdates" were nonexistant, you just went outside) and the worst thing to have come out of it is how hard he is on himself when he makes mistakes (but I am too and I was parented very differently). He is also brilliant, hard working, confident and an innovative thinker. I hope our daughter takes after him.

As with everything, balance is key. Name calling is not part of that balance, for me, but neither is coddling, which is quite common in my experience.

I don't think we can use our own measuring stick to determine how right or wrong this woman is, as culture is so wrapped up in her choices. If she said she was beating her children that would be one thing, but that's not the case.
 
Yennyfire - I agree with you and want to add, it's not just "letting kids be kids," but having the social skills necessary to make it in our society. Of course I want my kids to hang out with friends and play, but as they get older and enter the work force, they're going to have to interact with many sorts of people and to isolate kids from that learning experience is wrong, IMO. A few years back, I talked to one of my son's teachers and she told me that she didn't think my son would thrive in a specific program BECAUSE he wouldn't have any friends in that program. She is not the only teacher who feels this way. THEY all feel social capabilities are just as important as academic.[/quote]


I agree 100% MC...you said it better than I did...of course, my other point on this specific comment is that "playdates" are so supervised that kids aren't really learning the required social skills to thrive in society. Parents jump in every time anyone squeaks and the kids never get a chance to learn how to work things out on their own....
 
TravelingGal|1294611696|2818395 said:
MC|1294611312|2818392 said:
TravelingGal|1294610218|2818373 said:
I do believe expectations are set extremely high in many, many asian families. I told the PS moms the other day that I was asked what I felt was a nutty question the other day when my friend's DH asked me when I planned to teach Amelia multiplication. I told him I learned in 3rd grade so around then. He said he planned to teach them to his son at age 4-5. I asked him what's the point? He asked me, what's the harm? So the debate started. His argument was that drill and practice was crucial to academic success. My point was that I believed delayed gratification and impulse control were important. The answer probably is somewhere in the middle, and I'll spare you the details of the rest of the debate.

.
Click to expand...

Is the child going to be put in private school? One child in my son's kindergarten class was reading two grade levels ahead of all of the *highest-level readers* (kindergarten students at a 1st grade level - so he was 3rd grd level) and the mom ended up having to regularily come into class to promote her son's growth because the teacher didn't have time to assist the kid. All the para-educators were there to help the kids that were behind.

If a parent is going to make it a point to teach their child at a higher skill level, they do need to understand that it's a long-term commitment, not something they do in their free time and then expect the school system to take over.
Click to expand...

MC, EXACTLY. Here's part of my email to him when the discussion turned to email a few days later. I found the state standards which showed that multiplication is in the 3rd grade curriculum. His goal was to teach both his kids how to read and do multiplication before entering first grade.


"As you can see, my memory was not faulty. Multiplication is taught in the THIRD grade. I fully recall learning them the summer before, as I did actually know them before they were taught. What you are proposing then, is that you are going to teach D post KINDERGARTEN.

Then, please tell me, what will he be doing in school for grades 1 and 2 during math time, because I will assume he knows how to count, add and subtract? I was talking to a friend of mine about this and he has a friend who is a teacher. He made a good point that if the child is too advanced, he may get less attention from the teacher, as she focuses on students who need to learn the skills. I would imagine then, that a child who knows everything might get bored, and therefore become a distraction, thus leading potentially to behavioral issues.
Click to expand...

Yep, I volunteered in class (last year) and found that those who were reading above grade level had a difficult time keeping composure and would end up goofing off. My son was in that group and him and the other children would finish up so quickly that they'd make silly noises and jokes to pass time while all the other kids were working hard. Then the kids would complain to me that they were bored and that the books were too easy so I'd just sit there and chat with them till reading time was over. lol (I'd find out the strangest things, such as one girl knows how to play poker! lol)

Basically what normally happens in my kids' school is that the students are encouraged to draw after they finish their work. A few years back, my older son would come home with endless pages of drawings due to all his free time.
 
Interesting article! I have no kids but I definitely agree with a lot of what the author said.
 
I find some of what is written in this article chilling.

Mainly because it is similar to how my parents (who are Scottish rather than Chinese) decided to parent me. I have vivid memories of my father teaching me music theory at the age of 4 and to this day the mention of words like 'minim' or 'crochet' make me feel physically sick. All I remember was the yelling and screaming because I couldn't get things right fast enough.

I went to private schools where we were still beaten for getting bad grades - interestingly it was always the same kids getting beaten (I was one of them) and all of us were amongst the brightest kids in the school.

I have ended up as a total perfectionist, constantly convinced that I have done things badly and never thinking I've done something well.

Now that I have a daughter myself I am making decisions about how to bring her up. I went through school ahead of my age and my parents were very into teaching me things ahead of learning them at school - result was that I was very emotionally immature compared with the other students in my classes and had a lot of social problems because of it. I do think discipline, motivation and huge amounts of praise for achievements are important along with learning that not everyone is always a winner and that bad behaviour has consequences.

Daisy is a bright kid but I make a point of not teaching her anything. We read books together but anything she learns she does herself. She's nearly 20 months and can count to 10 and knows all the body-parts but neither was due to us sitting down and teaching them to her, she's just picked them up from somewhere. I don't want her bored at school if I've taught her the times tables before other kids are learning them.

I would rather that she was happy, confident and have great self-esteem and a load of B grades than be unhappy and have low self-esteem and the highest grades in the country. Academic success is not the be all and end all in life - and even if you do get all A-grades and a degree from Oxford it doesn't mean that you might not chose a career that isn't the most sparkly or lucrative...
 
the article is 100% true if the Chinese parents came from the "old country". i am more westernized.
 
I was raised very closely to those guidelines. Never allowed to not get straight As, few sleep overs, had to play an instrument, 30 min TV a day. I was on the ball all the time. Took college classes while still in high school, attended National programs and assorted championships scholastically, etc. As soon as I started college I just kind of burned out. I quit after only 2 semesters and haven't gone back. I guess I'm your classic under achiever. I'm quite happy with my life and my choices, but I do wonder if I'd have continued my education, been more socially acceptable when I was young, etc if I hadn't been pushed so hard. I was taught that success was important and that brought happiness. It took me a long time to realize that's not accurate.


I do have rules and limits for my kids, but they will be allowed to make a lot more choices than I was.
 
According to Amy Chua's c.v. posted at Yale, she graduated from Harvard Law cum laude, which is a gpa of only 3.74. Slacker! :tongue:

I'm so impressed that Ms Chua is a professor of law and a published author, yet can still find the time to berate a seven year old "through dinner and into the night," not letting her get up even for water or to go to the bathroom, into playing a piano piece. And the best part about it is that this vignette and more will be in Mommy's book for all the world to read. Yeah, I'm sure her daughters will grow up to be well-adjusted happy individuals!

Oh, and I would think her problem with play-dates is that they are simply a waste of time; no productive value. But what has she got against the french horn or cello?
 
somethingshiny|1294620821|2818475 said:
I was raised very closely to those guidelines. Never allowed to not get straight As, few sleep overs, had to play an instrument, 30 min TV a day. I was on the ball all the time. Took college classes while still in high school, attended National programs and assorted championships scholastically, etc. As soon as I started college I just kind of burned out. I quit after only 2 semesters and haven't gone back. I guess I'm your classic under achiever. I'm quite happy with my life and my choices, but I do wonder if I'd have continued my education, been more socially acceptable when I was young, etc if I hadn't been pushed so hard. I was taught that success was important and that brought happiness. It took me a long time to realize that's not accurate.

I do have rules and limits for my kids, but they will be allowed to make a lot more choices than I was.
Click to expand...
It's funny because I had the opposite experience.

I was raised in a house with no rules. I did okay in high school. I cared A LOT about my social life, and being able to play sports and participate in clubs, so I did only what I needed to do in class to keep my GPA at a 3.5/4.0. I was respectful, but rarely did homework. Then, I went to college and became a ROCK STAR student. I cared very much about school, and went on to become an educator, myself. My parents never pushed me to do anything at all, yet here I am happy and successful, according to my own definitions, of course. :bigsmile:

My parents always said they wanted to raise us to be happy, independent thinkers. I think they did a fine job. I wonder if I would be different (and if so, how?) had my parents put the pressure on to be "successful" in the ways the article's author defines success.

For the record, I won't be emulating my parents' style when I become a parent. Frankly, I think they're lucky they ended up with happy children who became a professor and a rabbi as adults. Their style could have just as easily yielded frighteningly different results.

I don't disagree with some of the author's ideas about children, specifically her point about how lowering our expectations for our children sends the message that we don't believe they are good enough to do better. I very strongly believe in that, and I follow that notion as a teacher.

I don't know how I feel about calling a child fat or cowardly, or such. My mom's parents nicknamed her a German word that means "little fat one" and I know she carries issues about that to this day. I can't imagine I'll call my own children names. I don't call anyone names.

I agree that a lot of western parents are overly worried about protecting their child's self esteem, and that the concern often backfires.
 
somethingshiny|1294620821|2818475 said:
I was raised very closely to those guidelines. Never allowed to not get straight As, few sleep overs, had to play an instrument, 30 min TV a day. I was on the ball all the time. Took college classes while still in high school, attended National programs and assorted championships scholastically, etc. As soon as I started college I just kind of burned out. I quit after only 2 semesters and haven't gone back. I guess I'm your classic under achiever. I'm quite happy with my life and my choices, but I do wonder if I'd have continued my education, been more socially acceptable when I was young, etc if I hadn't been pushed so hard. I was taught that success was important and that brought happiness. It took me a long time to realize that's not accurate.


I do have rules and limits for my kids, but they will be allowed to make a lot more choices than I was.
Click to expand...
yes we are under achievers... :oops: there're only three PSers w/o a college degree...you and i and one other member.
 
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