Why can't I see what is wrong with this stone?

[braga123]

So, I want to preface my question by acknowledging that I know that buying EGL USA is not the best idea...BUT....I simply have no other choice when it comes to upgrading. I do want to add that my previous stone is also and EGL and is generally a good stone. This current ring and setting do come with an exchange policy, but I am tied to only EGL stones, so this upgrade does not have to be final. So, for an extra 4000, I get this:



Here are the stats:
2.24 carats round
8.51 x 8.38 x5.10
J VS2
60.4 depth, 67% table
12.2% crown
45.1% pavilion
thin to medium girdle
culet very small


I did the whole HCA and that sucked...7.9.....and YET, in every light setting, this stone lights up like a disco ball....
So, what is wrong with the stone? What should I look for?
My previous stone was a 1.43 GVS2 EGL USA...so for an extra 4000, this seemed like a sensible choice

Can you experts tell me what I am not seeing?

 

[junebug17]

Braga, I'm not an expert but the table is very large. I would keep looking for a better cut stone.

 

[braga123]

I know! The table is huge! But if the stone still shines and is big and clear ...what am I missing? What effect does that big table have on the overall look?

 

[heididdl]

Braga.....I also feel that the table is so large. I do not understand why you HAVE to buy EGL...Does the vendor only have EGL stones????that seems a little unusual.

The stone seems sparkley but I would be concerned about size of table.

 

[braga123]

yes, he only carries EGL stones...it was a novice mistake to buy EGL in the first place, BUT that said, my previous EGL stone got tons and tons of compliments and though not ideal cut, it was beautiful.

 

[kenny]

Perhaps it looks good because you have not had it side by side with a better cut.
Someone may love their car till they are introduced to a better one.
But yeah, they are all cars and they all get you there.

If you put it next to a round with an HCA under 2.0 and good Idealscope image and they look the same then fergetaboutit.
Enjoy it.
If it looks worse in some or all lighting conditions, then take it from there.

I can't stand the advice, "All that matters is if you love it."
In time you may get better-informed and experienced in what the best cut can do.
If you do you may stop loving what you then know to be an inferior cut. (IOW, ignorance may be bliss.)

Seriously there is nothing 'wrong' with the diamonds themselves that are graded by EGL.
You just don't know what the color and clarity grades really are and therefore what the price should really be.
I read here that EGL buyers often pay more for their diamond with, say, EGL F VVS2 grades than they would have paid if GIA had graded the same diamond H VS2.
What had seemed like a better deal than a GIA-graded diamond may actually be a worse deal.

You are not stuck with it.
You can sell it and start over with a GIA or AGS-graded diamond.
You'll lose a lot of money, but that also usually happens with GIA stones since we buy at retail, and sell at wholesale.
Diamonds are not a commodity like gold, which is bought and sold at very near the same price, after paying a small commission.

 

[Dancing Fire]

yes, he only carries EGL stones...it was a novice mistake to buy EGL in the first place, BUT that said, my previous EGL stone got tons and tons of compliments and though not ideal cut, it was beautiful.

then ask him to bring in some GIA graded stones to show you.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Is that an MRB? Or is it an estate/old cut?

If it is an MRB, then I am guessing it looks great because you have not seen a well cut stone to compare it to.

The issue with EGL is that you essentially never get a fair value for what you buy. EGL basically exists to net diamond sellers more money than they would be able to get for a particular diamond if it was sent to GIA. In this case, I suspect that the reason the diamond was sent to EGL was the cut. GIA might give it a poor cut grade, which would make it virtually unsellable -- its a kiss of death type of grade.

Or, it might be an old cut. I can't tell anything from that photo. Any diamond will look like that on a bright sunny day with a clear sky!

 

[braga123]

No, the certificate does not say it is an oec. What is strange is that it reminds me of one--in spite of the large table!--
I have never owned an ideal stone, but I now what frozen spit and maul diamonds look like...and believe me, this diamond does not come close to resembling any of those! This is why I am so confused and am keeping it for a week before I rush to return it. I guess that I am looking to see if any pser's out there have stones that defy the recommended guidelines for cut but are still really happy wit their stones?
Please chime in!

 

[distracts]

If you are keeping it for a week, I'd take it to a vendor that has ideal cut hearts & arrows stones and compare it to them.

 

[braga123]

I wanted to update ...according to an estate jeweler my stone is a transitional...she totally loved it and asked me to let her loupe it...Itold her tthat I had my doubts and she couldn't understand why...she said it is a beautiful stone full of fire and brilliance...

 

[AN0NYM0US]

To answer your question. You do not see what is wrong because you haven't seen ideal cut stones. If you haven't tasted chocolate how would you know it tastes better than mud?

 

[kenny]

I have never owned an ideal stone, but I now what frozen spit and maul diamonds look like...and believe me, this diamond does not come close to resembling any of those! This is why I am so confused and am keeping it for a week before I rush to return it. I guess that I am looking to see if any pser's out there have stones that defy the recommended guidelines for cut but are still really happy wit their stones?

If they didn't put it side by side next to a better-cut stone and viewed them both in many lighting conditions how would they know there's anything better?

IOW, you're repeating a question we've already answered.

Plenty of ladies are absolutely delighted with their "frozen spit and maul diamonds" as you put it.
What if one of those gals told you hers is the best diamond she ever saw and she's delighted with it, and she can't understand what all the fuss is about regarding better diamonds?

Even if someone did chime in and say their HCA=6 diamond looks fantastic to them the reasoning still remains … until they see it side by side ……..

Since you are in the return period I'd find a local jeweler who has some more-widely-available ideal-cut rounds, like say a Hearts on fire.
Compare yours and the HOF side by side, especially away from the jewelry-store spotlights.
If your eyes/brain system, or your personality type discerns no difference, or you can see the difference but to you the better cut is not worth the higher price, then keep yours.
If you do see a difference then consider returning yours.
At least your decision will be an informed one one that is based on your personal experience, instead of speculation, assumptions, or the advice of some cut-fanatics on the Internet.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Please don't do it. I know of someone here who has or had an EGL stone and it actually was very well cut. Do NOT settle on cut even with EGL. Use the guidelines we give to help people get a stone that has a chance of being excellent/ideal cut:

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0

pavilion angle: 40.6-41.0

girdle: thin, medium, slightly thick (or a combination of those)

My original e-ring was pretty I thought at the time and it also has a huge table. But once I saw a well cut stone and got one, I could never use that old diamond again. Don't waste thousands of dollars when there are better stones out there even with EGL certs. Be sure it is EGL USA or you'll be in bigger trouble.

 

[soxfan]

Can you take more pictures? I think it's absolutely STUNNING!

 

[arkieb1]

At first I was really confused because the stone has terrible numbers looks like an Old Cut and has a much better sparkle & cut pattern than a badly cut RB would with those stats. This is a difficult one for me because in general I detest EGL certificates particularly International EGL because they do not grade (in places like Hong Kong, India, Israel and so on) to the same standards GIA does meaning it is commonplace for diamonds to be up to 4,5 and 6 grades out in colour and around two to three on clarity.

This is an EGL USA diamond. EGL USA is currently attempting to clean up their act so to speak and get more in line with GIA grading. Typically they are one or two grades out on colour (usually no more than one) if you are really lucky and its a new certificate it could be the same as GIA and it will typically be one two if you are really unlucky out on clarity or again if it's a new certificate it could be the same clarity grading as a GIA stone.

Many Old Cuts both OECs and transitional come with EGL USA certificates rather than GIA ones, it's a very common thing. You can't use the HCA on a transitional it simply doesn't work - they were hand cut to get max sparkle and fire. The stone has a huge table which in theory should mean it could be flat and glassy looking, but it has a longer pavilion depth which I think is compensating for the big table.

I wonder if you could borrow it for a day and go and compare it to some H & A GIA certified round Brilliants, or ask the jeweller if she has some you can compare the stone to. Old Cuts, transitional stones included can be a law unto themselves there is a general guideline of numbers for OECs and that should give you a better cut and a better looking diamond, but I have seen stones that were complete dogs fall into those golden numbers and ones that were outside that range look amazing. The guide of numbers and Ideal proportions works for Round brilliants but there is no concrete guideline of numbers that works with transitional stones.

All everyone is saying is you need to educate your eyes a bit more to view some better cut GIA stones, your old EGL stone is not a valid comparison. Once you have done that if you still like this particular diamond then you indeed have a winner.

 

[Karl_K]

This is a reasonable approximate based on the pic and numbers posted.

 

[braga123]

First, thanks to all for your input.

I feel that I need to clarify that I never said that I had never seen a Hearts and Arrows or Ideal Cut stone...I said that I had never OWNED one and had happily lived with my EGL USA that scored a 1.8 on the HCA. I should also add that I have no intention of paying for a 2.24 carat H and Arrows or Ideal cut stone...this is why I mentioned that the upgrade price was only 4k...I did a search on James Allen and nothing even comes close to what I will be paying for this one...EVEN WHEN I LOWER THE COLOR AND CLARITY AND SEARCH UNDER GOOD CUT to compensate for the EGL USA grading...
My original intention when I asked the question was: WHAT FORSEEABLE ISSUES WOULD I HAVE WITH THIS DIAMOND? I DID THE RESEARCH AND READ THAT A BIG TABLE LEADS TO FISH EYE, DARKNESS IN THE CENTER, AND DULLNESS....BUT MY STONE DOES NOT EXHIBIT ANY OF THESE...WHICH IS WHY I WAS CONFUSED AND NEEDING SOME TANGIBLE EVIDENCE ABOUT THE DOWNSIDES OF A BIG TABLE .
The estate jeweler who praised my stone and called it a transitional has been in business for 20 years, and is highly regarded in my community. I highly respect her opinion, which is what compelled me to post an update.

 

[Karl_K]

big table does not mean a fish eye all the time, this isn't one of them.
The table area is about as bright as an average princess cut the rest not so much with dark zones outside the table and edge. This will make it look smaller and the deep pavilion will cause color retention.
In bright lighting it might look ok, the pic you posted shows it the best it will get.
In flat or diffused lighting there will be a totally different story when the dark zones show up more.
bottom line:

I get it you love it, enjoy it.
But you asked for facts and the facts are its less than an ideal cut.
That does not mean you can not love it and enjoy it.

Wear it in great health and enjoy it.

 

[ariel144]

If you love it on your limited budget then that is all that matters. Looks lively and bright to me. The fact that your local jeweler who knows old cuts likes it too is a nice confirmation. Many old cuts are graded by EGL USA. Can you shoot more pics? a close up so we can see the facet pattern? I'm not a fan of MRB because i don't care for the facet patterns on them.

Go with what your eyes and her eyes are telling you. That is what really matters IMO.

 

[braga123]

For those of you who asked, here is one:

 

[soxfan]

For those of you who asked, here is one:

WOW. That is really beautiful. I am really confused on the HCA score. I also have a diamond with a large table and it's a GIA very good cut. It is very lively, bright, and has great fire. I actually did see mine next to a GIA excellent and I could see no difference. Can you get it to jeweler who has a GIA excellent cut to compare? I'd say if you compared it and had no reservations, get it! It's YOUR diamond at the end of the day, it's not important what others think.

If you are planning on selling it down the road, however, you will get less money than you would for an excellent cut. Just keep that in mind.

 

[GemFever]

I think if the price is right, if you're aware that it's less than ideal but it's still the best option for you in terms of upgrading through your jeweler for a reasonable amount and still getting a stone you love, then this is a good option and you should enjoy it!

In terms of what the bigger table will do, it's hard to say without seeing your stone in person, but from your last pic I think I see light leaking from around the edges of the table. That means you'll see good contrast and brightness in the center of the table and on the outer facets of your stone, but around the edges of the table there will be a kind of hazy area that's not sharp or well defined, and not as brilliant. It may not be a big deal to you, it may not always be visible. But that's the negative effect of the big table that I believe I see in your last pic.

 

[braga123]

For those of you who asked, here is one:

WOW. That is really beautiful. I am really confused on the HCA score. I also have a diamond with a large table and it's a GIA very good cut. It is very lively, bright, and has great fire. I actually did see mine next to a GIA excellent and I could see no difference. Can you get it to jeweler who has a GIA excellent cut to compare? I'd say if you compared it and had no reservations, get it! It's YOUR diamond at the end of the day, it's not important what others think.

If you are planning on selling it down the road, however, you will get less money than you would for an excellent cut. Just keep that in mind.

Thanks..I don't have plans to sell down the road. In fact, my jeweler has an open upgrade policy so I can always fall back on that if I choose to keep it.

 

[braga123]

I think if the price is right, if you're aware that it's less than ideal but it's still the best option for you in terms of upgrading through your jeweler for a reasonable amount and still getting a stone you love, then this is a good option and you should enjoy it!

In terms of what the bigger table will do, it's hard to say without seeing your stone in person, but from your last pic I think I see light leaking from around the edges of the table. That means you'll see good contrast and brightness in the center of the table and on the outer facets of your stone, but around the edges of the table there will be a kind of hazy area that's not sharp or well defined, and not as brilliant. It may not be a big deal to you, it may not always be visible. But that's the negative effect of the big table that I believe I see in your last pic.

You really summed it up for me...the price is right and I was looking to trade up for an OEC, but I had my doubts bc it is difficult to find one that blings as much as a mrb....so I guess that is why I am trying so hard to justify keeping this one. I think that I do see the hazy area that you mention, and some darkness, in some lighting, but overall, I seem to get lost in its brilliance because I spend most of my time in good lighting!

 

[braga123]

If you love it on your limited budget then that is all that matters. Looks lively and bright to me. The fact that your local jeweler who knows old cuts likes it too is a nice confirmation. Many old cuts are graded by EGL USA. Can you shoot more pics? a close up so we can see the facet pattern? I'm not a fan of MRB because i don't care for the facet patterns on them.

Go with what your eyes and her eyes are telling you. That is what really matters IMO.

I have to say that the estate jeweler's opinion really weighed heavily on my choice. She has NOTHING to gain from advising me to keep this ring...In fact, she could have tried to convince me to return it and buy one of hers, but instead she complimented it and insisted that it is a keeper. It's hard to discredit someone with her reputation and knowledge.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Braga,
Excellent subject- and I believe it spotlights a large "disconnect" which is typical on this board.
Would the diamond in question be considered an excellent cut?
No, it would not.
Does everyone prefer an excellent cut?
No they don't.

The "guidelines" that are posted here make a lot of sense for someone who's looked at ideal cut stones, compared them to "regular" cut stones and loves the ideal cut.
The disconnect comes when people are told they are going to love the ideal cut better in a manner that suggests it would be ...crazy for them not to.
Like comparing an offer that will yield you either $100 or $50.
You'd have to be crazy to prefer the $50

But diamond cut does not work that way.
The large table can, in some cases, produce a "fish eye"- but certainly not all cases.
There are times a 67% table can produce a lovely, sparkly diamond. Looks like you found one of those.
HCA is a great predictor for those looking for a certain type of cut.
But not everyone will love that type of cut.
What this means is that by blindly seeking a lower scoring HCA diamond- or an ideal cut diamond, and not checking out other types of stones, shoppers may indeed be getting driven to stones they would prefer less.
It's true that educating one's eyes is a great step to take when diamond shopping.
It's NOT true that everyone who takes this step will prefer Hearts and Arrows, or what can technically be declared the "best cut"
"Frozen spit" is a condition caused by poor clarity, having nothing to do with cut.

Since the best cut diamonds typically cost more, it makes sense to see where one falls in this debate......

 

[CharmyPoo]

You saw, you wore the diamond in a range of conditions and you still love the diamond. I really think that is all that matters regardless of what we say here or how much people hate this response.

I have some old cut stones that I find beautiful ... in which others won't. In the end, I am wearing them and they are not - the problem only arises if I try to sell. This is a transitional cut which tends to have larger tables ... maybe not this large but they do.

 

[Roxy]

If you love it on your limited budget then that is all that matters. Looks lively and bright to me. The fact that your local jeweler who knows old cuts likes it too is a nice confirmation. Many old cuts are graded by EGL USA. Can you shoot more pics? a close up so we can see the facet pattern? I'm not a fan of MRB because i don't care for the facet patterns on them.

Go with what your eyes and her eyes are telling you. That is what really matters IMO.

I have to say that the estate jeweler's opinion really weighed heavily on my choice. She has NOTHING to gain from advising me to keep this ring...In fact, she could have tried to convince me to return it and buy one of hers, but instead she complimented it and insisted that it is a keeper. It's hard to discredit someone with her reputation and knowledge.

Looks like it's within your budget, you love the way it looks, and someone who you respect (and who, by your account, is independent) "insisted that it is a keeper". I think you have your answer, so are you sure there's not something else about the diamond that has you second guessing?

I don't think you'll ever get 100% agreement from the PS community on a "go" or "no-go". All of the respondents are trying to give you food for thought from a variety of perspectives, and are just forewarning you that there MAY be situations/lighting environments/etc where this ring might not look as fabulous as the one on someone else's hand. They just want you to be aware so that IF that happens, you're not disappointed.

Now it's up to you to determine whether you care about that or not. Dependent upon your lifestyle, circle of friends, etc this may or may not be an issue, but only you can determine that. I'm excited to know what you decide!

 

[leoshraeder]

Go with what your gut tells you.