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Wholesale price less than Rap??

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Mongol

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
26
Can anyone confirm this?. I managed to look at the price guide (most possibly what the jeweller buys for) and bloody hell its competive. It is at least 30%less than Rap.

I worked out the selling price of most places is twice wholesale. What I get ticked off about is when the jeweller doesnt show the rap pricelist. Geez another thing is when the jeweller says 'no we dont have that diamond but this one is just as good' and shows a lesser quality Diamond priced far beyond the rap price.

Have you ever noticed that some sales staff have no idea about what they sell. For example once I inquired about the propotions of the cut I get responses such as 'its a good cut' and its seems fairly obvious that the chap doesnt know too much about Diamonds. I hate to admit even the in-house expert on Diamonds gives blankett answers.
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
Diamonds priced on Rap is a starting point.

Very finely cut diamonds can sell wholesale for MORE than the RAP price.

There are some cutters who selll a little below the RAP price...

and then there are cutters who will sell at as much as 60-70% less than the Rap sheet price.

The more the discount "off RAP" - the higher the chance of buying a diamond has some sort of problem with it.

You think Diamond dealers just give away money in their pricing?

Guess what? They know precisely how much discount off RAp a diamond deserves and they ARE priced accordingly to this.

If you don't understand the relationship of diamond cutting and grading relevant to the RAP sheet, it will do more damage than good to have access to the sheet.

The huge mistake consumers make to is think that checking the price of the rap sheet is like looking at the price sticker on a car, and negotiating a discount. Using this mindset is a sign that the seller knows little about the diamonds and grading of them, but rather is experience in sales techniques that mislead consumers...i.e. making them think they are getting a discount when in fact, they aren't!

Many consumer make the horrible mistake of buying the price instead of the diamond, and more often than not, they end up with an EXCUSE for the quality they really wanted instead of concentrating on purchasing the diamond itself.

After you buy the diamond, the money is GONE, so you might as well get the right stone.

Rockdoc
 

lacina

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
146
Hi Mongol,
Its funny you say this,..
I rarely come and visit retail stores and I don't know much about their pricing at all,.. however I supply several of them with diamonds and other precious stones. While I was christmas shopping few weeks ago, I stopped at my buddy's store waning him to join me for lunch. He needed a couple of minutes to make him self available and asked me to go and take a peek at his competitors store across the mall...
It was a chain "high end" store no name will need to be disclosed,... I know I had no chance to supply this chain so I have decided to play stupid,...

Clerk:..Hello Sir,..
How can I help you?
Me: Well,... I am just looking at some diamonds you have here on display,...
Clerk: For your self or your wife? ....
Me: Well,... I am just looking, for now, don't wish to buy realy,...
Clerk: Oh Sir, you should buy a diamond for your wife we are having a BIG promotion!! You can't misss it!! Diamonds will never be cheapper than today!!
Me: Oh??,,. well... ok so how much are they?? ,...
Clerk: Well sir, depending on quality and color! Here is a chart I need to show you, and explain you the properties and value of a diamond,... You can trust me I have been in this business for long time and never seen prices as low as today and we have some top quality still available!
Me: Well,... What is the highest quality diamond you have here??
Clerk: Well, I have one that's nearly Flawless!!
Me: Well,... ok and what color?
Clerk: "G",colorless!...
Me: Well,...OK,... Can I see it?
He pulls out an emerald cut diamond set in Platinum solitaire setting 1ct stone
of decent cut, uncerted,... I imedietely knew, the color is not "G" tough Emerald cuts are hard to colorgrade in the setting,... I have also spotted some inclusion with my trained eye , on the side of the stone 1/2 of it was covered with a prong!!...
Me: Well,... It's a nice stone,... What did you say the color and clarity Was?
Clerk: Sir, I told you its almost Flawlwess! and color "G" - Colorless!
Therefore Perfect gift for your Wife!! We have great interest free payment plan would you like to apply for it? Not a penny down 12 months interest free!!
Me: Well,... I think I can see an inclusion on the side!
Clerk: Sir, there is no way you can see the inclusion with your naked eye!
This stone is SI1!!!
The guy was looking at me, like I was going to set the store on fire!
Me: Geeeee,... SI1?? I thought you said it's Flawless!?
Glerk: Well,... Sir,.. this is the highest quality we have in this store and I was told It's so clean it's nearly flawless!,.. because the inclusion is so small it's soooo clean, the best we have at the store!There is no way you can see the inclusion Sir!! Unlees you use this 10X jewlers microscope!
He hands me 10X loupe and I was ready to blow up, but instead I told the guy not to be missleading buyers this way, since it does not say much about the reputation of the store he is working for,.. I used the loupe and told him what I thing the grade was, SI1 and I-J color,...
The guy turns bright RED and wants to call the manager!,... To help him out!
That second by buddy appears to pick me up at his competitors store!...
Him and the manager knows each other realy well, so here the introduction starts,..
Me: Hi my name is George,... I had the opportunity to chat with one of your sales people and I was very "Impressed"!!
Store manager: Well,...John is our TOP sales representative for the month of November! Ask him anything you wish to know about Diamond!! He is considered an expert in that field!!
My buddy is loughing,.. clerifying the whole situation,...
My Buddy: George and I are friends, and I forgat to mention that George is one of our suppliers of fine Diamonds and Sapphires,...
Manager: Ohhh so you are a member of trade??...
Me: Well,... Yes,.. I have allways wondered what retail is like a days and I also wonder how many Flawless diamonds has John sold last month, the way he sells is somewhat unusual for such high end store?!
Manager: Flawless diamonds?
Clerk: Well I said almost flawless! There is a difference!
Manager: George, please understand that John is our best salesman with a long experience in sales he works for us almost a year and the reason I hired him he moved in our area with great reputation in retail sales! Last year he was the top salesman in Pontiac dealership (no named)!

The manager talked proudly about his sales staff , and I can understand the difficulties theese stores are going thorough,... Good diamond people who are actually directly involved in sales, are hard to find....
I think this is the reason why Interenet sales are so helpfull, you will get all the information you need,... plus you will get to talk to experts who buy and sell all the time! Internet is the only way Diamond sales can be done with minimum proffit margins also so internet seems to be the way to go today!

George
GLE Gem Imports
 

Mongol

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
26
Thanks ...

I really enjoyed reading that George. Yes I agree many sales staff use fancy wording to bump the grade of Diamonds. For a chap like me who doesnt deal in Diamonds for a living its a hard choice to discriminate between the good and the bad. I can think of a few ways to rectify the problem
1) Research about the 4C's & Cost
2) Buy the required tools like the idealscope
3) shop around
4) Hire the servicesof an accredited Diamond Appraiser
5) Negotiate to obtain the best price.
 

lacina

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
146
Hi Mongol,
I agree, I think for those who don't deal in diamonds for living, it is the best to educate them selves and buy from reputable internet buyer or wholesaler but make sure you are buying certed diamond by reputable lab best with laser inscription and still have it checked by independent appraiser,... For us in the business we all understand the ammount of money people have to spend to get a decent rock and being honest and up front, allways pays off!,...
I think the seller needs to disclose all the good and bad points of the particular diamond of interest and submit few other items to compare. Explain the idea why to buy this diamond versus the other one.
Why choose quality etc,...and if there is a budget, work with it!

I have found that some of the large jewelry chain stores often utilize inexpensive diamonds of low color range H-J and low clarity I1 with fancy cuts adding facets to the diamond for maximum brilliance. This is very missleading for the buying public even more since the brilliance more than hides the inclusions and the diamond often looks very pretty when viewed under the stores lighting! Theese diamonds are often being named after the store and sold as limited edition cut!,.. You will often be shocked what the appraisal will come to! Possibly less than you paid for it! Cut is the hardest part to judge on diamond especially when set! I agree that the idealscope may be a great tool to own when shopping for diamond,but do not expect to see too many ideal cuts at the stores! The most common is class 2B or 2A depending on store, some high end stores will offer the Ideal cut diamonds for a hefty premium!
I think the members of this forum are correct in choosing on line shopping
or buying direct from a wholesaler like me,.. After all stores do not specialize on diamonds only and usually know very little about them anyway,... I know stores who cary diamonds hovever they can't sell larger stone than 1/2carat Why? they trully don't care! They don't push, they dont discount and everything sold has to have the same profit margin so diamonds often cost wholesale price X 2.2 Well how can you be selling larger diamond based on such margin?... Not when people can buy it on line at true wholesale of below it!
Best
George
 

Mongol

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
26
I agree, The retail stores seldomly carry Diamonds over 50 points. As soon as I tell I am interested in 1.0ct Diamond their eyes lit up and start qouting price 2.2X Wholesale. AS I said before half the placed I visited arent keen on explaning the most important of the 4'C cut. Some places do not even offer certs and I requested a lab report they said' okay thats 30 % extra'...can you believe a 1/3 raise in price for the same Diamond.

One shop I went to claimed that their Diamonds are the best and certs arent required. I get the feeling that a wholesaler or reputable on-line dealer may be the answer.
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
Nearly Flawless.....?????????????

What a PIRATE! Being Flawless is definitive ! Perhaps an understandable comparision is being pregnant.

There is NO NEARLY PREGNANT... Either you are or your not ( although some overweight men might Look pregnant ( just a little humor here)....

The salesman's representation of prices "never being lower" leads one to assume the saleperson is under the age of 10. Prices in stores have been increasing, although in some stores they have had to adjust selling prices so they don't lose all the sales to the internet selilers - who many times are selling far better stones, for far lower prices.


The store manager's claim that this person is one of their best salespeople to me demonstrates that this sales person is far more schooled and education in conning consumers, than he is gemologically.

If your estimated grading of the diamond is correct, then this is blatant misrepresention, commonly perpatrated on consumers.

I enojoyed your story. But it isn't ususual, its more the norm in maul and high competition areas.

Rockdoc
 

trichrome

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
397
I think that the best way for the consumer to buy a diamond would
be to know the actual price paid by his jeweler (in % off Rap).
Then if agrees to pay for let's say 10-15% over that price,
this is what I call a good deal for the consumer. Unfortunately,
Rap prices are only available to trade members. However,
looking at sites like pricescope gives you a good idea of it.

Please note that there's a way, somewhere on the internet, to get
all these Rap prices for free for all consumers even if you are
not part of the trade. However the Rap sheet is copyrighted
and I would not tell you how to do so. :)

Best regards,

Trichrome.
 

Yupi

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 8, 2003
Messages
74
Dear Trichrome,

Why did you say 10- 15% over the Rap list is reasonable ?? Any adjustmemt to cut ?? Why these magic percentages ?
 
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