Which stone? EGL or GRA

[AlvinHuyN]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here so I’m just learning everything that I can. As this is the first time I am purchasing a diamond (for an engagement ring) I am very nervous about the whole thing so I learn as much as I could.

When I set out to do this I have a very specific stone in mind. A .5 Ct with a IF or VVS1 (purity is very important because to me it represents my future wife) and a D/E/F color only.

I was able to find two diamonds I really wanted and I knew I couldn’t afford GIA so I decided to go with another lab report and of course looking at the diamonds. I have found the following and now I can’t decide with one to go with.

Which is the better diamond to buy? They are the same price and to my novice eyes I thought that the GRA has a bit mroe fire but the jewler says the EGL is better. I can't decide which to go with. I understand the lwoer standard of EGL and that the grade would be one lower but what about GRA - it seems as if I can't find any information on them at all.


EGL – Belgium
July 6th, 2005


Weight: .50
Shape and Cut Round Brilliant Cut
Measurement 5.15 x 5.11 x 3.12
Proportion Excellent
Depth 60.8%
Table Diameter 57%
Crown Height 15%
Pavillion Depth 43%
Girdle Thickness Medium
Finish Grade Excellent
Clarity Grade IF – Internally Flawless
Color Grade D
Comment Ideal Cut - Diascript


GRA – Gemological Rating Laboratory of America – L.A. Lab
July 22nd, 2005


Weight: .50
Shape and Cut Round Brilliant
Measurement 5.11 x 5.05 x 3.16
Proportion ---------
Depth 62.2%
Table Diameter 57%
Crown Height 14.6%
Pavillion Depth 42.7%
Girdle Thickness Medium Faceted
Symetry Excellent (Note: the EGL stone does not have a symetry or polish grading)
Polish Excellent
Clarity Grade IF – Internally Flawless
Color Grade D
Comment None


Thank you so much, this is such an improtant diamond for me as it will be with my fiance for the rest of her life and I don't want to make the wrong choice. Thanks for all the help

Alvin
P.S. I have both diamonds on hold, I just need to chose one so I can propose on September 20th

Just a side note...I noticed after I thought that the GRA looks better that the date it was graded (July 22th, 2005) was the date that I propose inside the car to my fiance right after a huge car accident...a coincidence?

 

[callista]

Hi Alvin,

I have never heard of GRA. And seems like you could find no information on them as well. If I were you, I would go for the EGL diamond. GRA sounds like some made up certificate that some independent appraiser used to made the diamond sound more official. That''s just my guess though. Since this doesn''t seem like legit paperwork, how do you know it is a D IF stone?? Although EGL is not as reliable as GIA, how would the GRA, which you can''t find any info. on (I couldn''t either) be more reliable than EGL????

I don''t know much about rounds, I''m an asscher fan, but if you are leaning more towards the GRA one, find out what their return policy is, and purchase it. Then get it independently appraised by someone reputable. Iit will give you better piece of mind it is in fact a D IF stone.

BTW, where did you find these stones and how much are they going for?????

 

[callista]

If you type in GRA – Gemological Rating Laboratory of America – L.A. Lab into the google search engine, there is an auction on overstock.com auctions that has a diamond graded with GRA. You could ask the seller where the GRA cert. orginated from.


Hope that helps!

 

[Lorelei]

Just wanted to add - you say the EGL diamond is EGL Belgium, apparently many think that their colour and clarity grading isn''t as accurate as EGL USA or the industry standard GIA. Just wanted to point this out so you are aware of this. I haven''t heard of GRA personally. Yes I have a thing about the dates on my certs being coincidental too

. I know you want to propose soon, but take your time in choosing a stone - it is a very important purchase for you and there are too many beauties out there to rush into it and plenty of time for buyer''s remorse! Trust me, doing your homework pays dividends! I hope some of this helps - if a true undisputable D colour IF is that important to you, maybe you might be better going with a GIA cert, as any other might not be. Good luck in your search

 

[Iceberg]

Hi Alvin. During the last month and a half I have gone through the same painstaking task you are planning to take. I researched for days and learned a great deal.

First, forget D, E, and F colour and start at VS2. Why? I too wanted the very best for my future wife but I soon learned that there are diamond characteristics that are predominantley for investment sakes while others (VS1, VS2, SI1, F and G) are for all you need for absolute visual beauty.

My specs are:

Round Brilliant: 5.12 x 5.16 x 3.17 mm ( VS2, G ) .512 cts
Depth: 61.6%
Table: 56%
Crown angle: 34.6
Pavilion angle: 40.8
Pointed culet
Girdle is faceted 1.4% - 3.9%
NO fluorescence

AGS report done on August 19th 2005 (New stricter AGS report since June 1st 2005)

AGS Ideal 0 (Light performance 0, Proportion factors 0 and Finish 0(ideal symmetry and polish) AND an HCA score of 1.3

Consequently, the diamond has ALL the qualities for stunning beauty.

From the very beginning, I wanted an UNBELIEVABLE Sparkler!!
I wanted my fiance to constantly get rave comments from friends, co-workers and perfect strangers on the beauty of her diamond.

A diamond that catches the least amount of light and shoots it back into a room that you cannot help but notice the ring.

Alvin !!!! Do lots of research. AND, when you think that you are ready to buy, do more research and comparaisonsssssssss. I did ! NOW, I know for sure that the love of my life will be getting a gem which many will envy.

All at a resonable price. Let''s not forget. When you get into the D,E,F colours, there is a premium to pay. Same goes for a flawless diamond or VVS. These variables are not noticeable unless you use a microscope !!! People will not be carrying one of those around so, don''t worry about someone looking at it with a 50x magnitude. The population will see her diamond with the naked eye Alvin. If you paid for an incredible cut, it will show. The individuals looking at your fiance''s diamond will notice its beauty. So, WHY pay the big bucks. Save the money for the wedding band.

Who am I ? I''m just a rough rock. A pebble. BUT, I''ve done over 100 hours of research to learn and to find THE one diamond for my true love.

Your call Alvin.

Kind regards,

Paul

=

 

[phoenixgirl]

It seems to me that if you are going for D/IF, you may as well go for a GIA or AGS lab report. Having some obscure report (GRA) or one that is discounted because of assumed leniency (EGL) doesn''t make sense when you want the best of the best. And why is there no symmetry/polish data on the EGL report?

If the jeweler was convinced they would be graded D/IF, why did he send them to those labs? I suspect it was because D/IF is a whole lot more impression than E/VVS1. Just my two cents though. Perhaps he can send whichever stone you choose to the GIA (you pay the $100 or $200 as long as it comes out D/IF, I can''t remember how much it costs), and the deal is contingent on it still being D/IF.

Blue Nile has a few D/IF in the 0.5 carat range. You might check out their prices for comparison.

Some info on prices of diamonds graded by EGL vs. GIA vs. AGS

 

[DoubleB]

Alvin,

Listen to what people here are telling you.

I totally agree with Phoenix Girl. Before I found PriceScope, I mistakenly (stupidly) bought a diamond from a high end jeweler at the mall. It had an EGL certificate and was graded E VS2.

I took it to a certified gemologist who examined it and said it was SI-1 at best, and pretty close to SI-2.

I went back to the vendor and did what Phoenix Girl is telling you - I told them to send it GIA and I''d pay for it if it came back E VS2, otherwise no deal.

They gave me back my money, rather than send it to GIA.

Good luck.

DoubleB

 

[AlvinHuyN]

Thanks everyone for the help. I want to further explain a bit more on my standards on which diamond I am getting.

- I truely want a vvs1 or an IF diamond because I believe the diamond represents my fiance and a vvs1 or IF represents purity...which stands for her love for me...lol maybe it's a weird asian thing?

- I wanted the to buy a non-GIA diamond because of the price, I know that it's not as well graded but the price difference is huge and since I am working on a tight budget, I don't mind that at all.

- I have searched on pricescope and heard good stories (and bad) with EGL but should it be of a huge concern?


I can't really afford the GIA stone in that quality...nor did I find one in stock at any retailer around here. I'm pushing for time...I need the diamond in the setting by the 19th at the latest and I have been shopping around since the beggining of August. Any suggestions?

 

[phoenixgirl]

Well, it's your money and your priorities, but I'm not sure that makes sense to me. If purity is a priority I would think that making sure it was as pure as stated would be also. Otherwise it's just about an arbitrary letter assigned to it. It's like how most main-stream clothing stores have made their sizes fit larger women. Just because I can fit into a size 6 in one store does not mean I am any smaller than I was buying 8's elsewhere.

I'll make you a deal, send me any stone and $100, and I'll make up a nifty little PGLA (Phoenixgirl Gemological Laboratory of America) report that says the stone is D/IF. Better yet, I'll say it's C color, no wait, A color! Yes, you'll have the world's only A colored diamond as guaranteed by me! I'll even add a plus to the A for an additional $50.

I guess I'm asking why it has to IF or VVS1 if you're subconsciously allowing that it might be bumped up a grade or two. Is that really better than a GIA VVS1 or VVS2? I guess psychologically it is. Otherwise clothing sizes would have stayed constant and labs like EGL wouldn't get all the business that they do.

P.S. Here at PriceScope we like to make cut a priority. Here are some H&As close to your specs

0.53 F VVS1 H&A for $2800

0.527 E VVS2 H&A for $2427

0.59 D VVS1 H&A for $3400

I understand wanting the best you can get for your money, but going down on the level of lab report would not be on my list. I would go down on size, color, or clarity instead. I also recognize that higher color/clarity combinations are the norm in Asia and won't try to convince you to get an I SI2. I just want to make sure you are making an informed decision. That's why you came here, right?

You said you can't afford a GIA stone in that quality. The stone's quality is fixed. It's the grading that is subjective. If indeed there has been leniency and grade bumping (as the pricing indicates), you are not getting a stone of that quality, you're just getting an E/VVS1 (or whatever the case may be, it's not an exact science) with a PR agent.

 

[AlvinHuyN]

Hi Phoenix girl, thank you so much for helping me with that. I understand your concern now. My question is this. If I am willing to settle for the E/VVS1 that you think the stone maybe which from reading EGL feedback that could be likely true, would it be wise to buy that stone for $1,300? This is a jeweler I know so it''s not just the local B&M. She did tell me that EGL grading are indeed lower than GIA and that I should think about it clearly before chosing the two diamonds. Of course she is also saying that she is giving me a great deal. I made sure the Cert and the laser inscription matched up already, would buying the EGL be a good purchase? the specs on the cut did make it a 1.1 on the HCA

Thanks again! Everyone''s expertise and opinion for this novice is definitly appreciated! I love PS

 

[valeria101]

Date: 9/11/2005 12:19:45 PM
Author: AlvinHuyN


- I truely want a vvs1 or an IF diamond because I believe the diamond represents my fiance and a vvs1 or IF represents purity...which stands for her love for me...lol maybe it's a weird asian thing?

- I wanted the to buy a non-GIA diamond because of the price, I know that it's not as well graded but the price difference is huge and since I am working on a tight budget, I don't mind that at all.

Without proper certification, that IF is not that pure after all... Otherwise, get a VS stone and tear down the report - that is a pure diamond to anyone that sees it. Actuall, you did pretty much the same going for 'second tier' paper (not my words).



- I have searched on pricescope and heard good stories (and bad) with EGL but should it be of a huge concern?

That is another EGL (EGL-USA) and there is some large difference of grading standards between the US and other EGL labs. Tis should be reflected by the price after all.


I can't really afford the GIA stone in that quality...

It is not GIA, is the quality fullstop. These are not different things. If you want me to call a diamond "perfect & flawless" to insure the symbolism is there, no problem

IMO, these grades that go so far beyond what anyone can see (even with magnification, let alone without) are silly. Grading something off to make it 'sound' better while the quality difference is so impractical anyway, is... well, double-silly.

Ok. perhaps the language is harsh. The above do not reffer to yout commendable intention to acquire a stone worthy of being considered a symbol of purity and strength. After all, this is what made diamonds precious well beyond anyone could imagine 'ideal cuts' or anything. I strongly believe this is a great reason to buy a diamond. Good for you

IMO, D-F, VS1 or better is as 'perfect' as they get. Splitting hairs beyond this needs some sort of belief and trust in grading standards that I simply do not have. If you do... that is another matter. These are matters of personal opinion and belief anyway. What is not, is that labs do not claim their grades to be acurate and repeatable 100% (GIA's grades are supposedly accurate down to half a degree - which would make your GIA D-IF potentially E-VVS1 upon re-grading). Meaning... if they do not know, why should you worry (and pay) ?

Oh well... just my 0.2. Hope it helps a bit with the tight deadline.

 

[valeria101]

Sorry.. this computer decided to close the browser window before I could correct the previous post. I didn't see the $1300 offer.

Now, that is weird for D-IF. Really. I would rather consider the seller to be smart and the grades inflated (in absence of relaible third party report) than the other way around. F-G, VS sounds more reasonable for the money.

The HCA score is ok by definition, but that can only be as good as the numbers plugged in, which means that this is a screening tool only and there is better.

How about THIS from a bit below $1300.




At least that lab I know of, the think is 'colorless' and perfectly clean looking and the cut is flawless allright (so at least one thing is as perfect as much as possible to measure).

Do I believe that the diamond sold locally has any chance to get a D-IF report if submitted to a more strict lab? No.
As usual, I'd rather know what I am getting. I never play the lottery either though...

Just my 0.2, of course.

 

[AlvinHuyN]

Hi Ana, thank you for the advice as well. I know you wanetd me to make an informed decision and I believe that is what I will be doing. It''s like getting what you paid for. With that in mind, do you think that $1300 for that EGL diamond what the specs listed above is a good deal?

I have searched through the popular e-salers like bluenile /Abazias /white flash and this EGL seems to be a good deal. I did already make sure the laser # matched with the cert.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 9/11/2005 1:37:44 PM
Author: AlvinHuyN

With that in mind, do you think that $1300 for that EGL diamond what the specs listed above is a good deal?

The previous post took a while to upload here, did you see it?

Oh well... I don''t think I would do that simply because the above mentioned stone is out there (and probably more)... Sorry

Just one random vote, of course. The decission is yours, really, not mine. I have not seen the stone either, you have.

 

[AlvinHuyN]

Date: 9/11/2005 1:34:59 PM
Author: valeria101
Sorry.. this computer decided to close the browser window before I could correct the previous post. I didn''t see the $1300 offer.

Now, that is weird for D-IF. Really. I would rather consider the seller to be smart and the grades inflated (in absence of relaible third party report) than the other way around. F-G, VS sounds more reasonable for the money.

Yes I thought so too so I made sure everything matched with the cert. The cert is legit as well coming with the seal from Antwerp so I know the diamond is legit. The price difference is huge so I wanted to make sure that it is not a flake

It does look beautiful as well when compared with the D IF - GIA they had in stock for me to compare side by side

 

[denverappraiser]

There are several things a play here. I definitely understand the symbolism with getting a ‘flawless’ diamond and I applaud you for pursuing it. The trick is trying to define what is meant by flawless. Not all graders use this term in the same way and it sounds like you goal is to find a stone that someone will describe as flawless that you can buy for a minimum price. This is an easier issue than you might think. Since not all labs are using the same grading scales nor do they apply them equally, you need to find someone who has a very broad category for flawlessness to issue your report. This will probably not be the oft recommended GIA and AGS documents. In general, the more generous the lab is to the seller, the lower the prices will be on the subject stone. EGL-overseas, IGI and many of the lesser known labs are well worth considering although some of the 2nd tier labs are extremely selective. The same rule is true of colors. Less stringent grading will result in lower prices. My usual advice to consumers is to buy the diamond, not the paper but your case is an exception because your primary criteria is the paper, not the diamond.

If a grading opinion by the selling dealer will be acceptable, this is even easier and will surely result in the lowest possible prices with the highest possible description.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[valeria101]

Date: 9/11/2005 1:45:46 PM
Author: AlvinHuyN


It does look beautiful as well when compared with the D IF - GIA they had in stock for me to compare side by side

Well, I would think that the color and clarity grades have little to do with what the diamonds looked like to you. Especially since these two are relatively high (I2 - well, that has something obvious to show for it, VS does not; for color it would take something below K to scream at the casual observer over a shop''s counter, IMO). The difference should have been mostly in the cut. Chances are the D-IF wasn''t all that great if you say it looked less appealing. I have not seen the stone, so I don''t know.... but the more expensive the material, the more likely it is to find a less than optimal cut so chances are this was the case there too.
Love Neil''s concise cut to the bone

It is a name game that you are going for. If this is terrible or acceptable, is up to you. The diamonds do not change regardless of what paper (lab reports and price tags included) get attached to them.