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Which online retailer for a custom setting?

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by evankrobinson, Jul 3, 2014.

  1. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 3, 2014
    Hi all,

    I've searched for weeks and weeks for the exact setting I'm looking for, but have not been able to find it outside of Tiffany. I'm simply not willing to pay for Tiffany prices so it looks like I will need to go custom to get something at least very close.

    http://www.tiffany.com/Engagement/Item.aspx?mcat=148203&groupSKU=GRP10073&origin=engagement&search_params=param+1004/0/0/0/0/0

    As you can see, I'm looking for a halo setting with emerald center (expected to be ~1.75carats, not yet purchased) and side diamonds. Everything I've found either has too much metal (Tiffany makes it appear the stones are "floating"), has the center stone set too high above the halo, has too thick of a band, etc.

    Brilliance has quoted me $2695 for a platinum setting with 0.58 carats for the halo/side stones.

    A) I'm not sure if this is a good price
    B) I'm not sure if Brilliance is a good vender for custom settings

    I REALLY don't want to end up with something that has a poor finish to it, or is clearly not what I had in mind. I'm almost hoping for someplace with a 4 week or so turn-around time. Any suggestions?
     
    


    


  2. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    Please read this: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/custom-jewelry-work-cad-and-cast-psa.175834/#post-3202426#p3202426
    That setting is VERY high maintenance. And very lifestyle unfriendly. Is this style something that the wearer is insistent on?


    That setting, in a quality that will last and be wearable for every day is going to cost at least 3500. You SHOULD do platinum for the metal, it is the best metal for that style. And again... it is not a practical size. Particularly for someone who wants kids. Finger sizes fluctuate during pregnancy and that setting is not easily sized. And you will need to baby it when you wear it.



    As for vendors. It will run you 5000 in handforged quality from Steven Kirsch or Victor Canera. And about 3500-4000 in CAD from Engagement Rings Direct.
     
  3. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 3, 2014
    Hi Gypsy,

    Thanks for the reply. I read the linked post.

    Being naive to the engagement ring world... what exactly makes it impractical to wear daily? Not sure if you're referring to halo's in general, the center stone size, or what?

    What exactly do you mean by something that will last? Do platinum castings actually break? Does wear become obvious? I have an engineering background, so it is surprising to me that two rings both cast in platinum would have significantly different failure rates in such a low-load scenario (obviously a finger can't exert much of a force on a ring).

    She 100% wants a halo setting, she has not been as clear on the stone shape, but she has consistently pointed out emerald cuts.

    I cannot afford your quoted price of hand-forged... the most I wanted to spend on a setting was $3000. You mentioned engagement rings direct... are they proven to have better artists and better casters compared to the sites I've mentioned?

    Thanks for your help.
     
  4. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    Lots of good questions.

    Micro pave is fragile. There are two main styles. Bright cut, where the stones sit in a channel and have some protection. And V-cut (lots of different names for this depending on who you are talking to). The soliste is v-cut. You take a straight piece of metal and then you cut v-shaped cups out of it in which to set the stone in.

    So right there as an engineer you can see how cutting out a row of cups from a piece of metal creates weakness. So the metal is weakened. Now, white gold is harder than platinum but platinum is stronger. That strength is needed due to the 'cups' that are weakening the metal.

    Next is the actual setting of the stones. You are talking TINY stones . The maximum size of the stones in a double halo (and yours will be smaller than this, likely about 1mm each) is 1.3mm for a one point stone. Look at the below:
    PaveCloseup1.jpg

    Now those stones are 1.3mm or smaller. How big do you think those prongs are holding the stone?

    TINY. TEENY TINY. And they do NOT size well. Taking a setting up or down in size is a NICE way to weaken that further.

    So you have a bunch of tiny stones, held by microscopic prongs onto a piece of metal riddled with dips that weaken it.

    Can you see why that might be fragile? Especially when worn on the hands? Have you ever noticed how often you use your hands and bang them against things like :the bed frame, the kitchen counter, anything you pick up period... It's not ONE single hit that kills the pave. It's HUNDREDS of small ones, every day you wear it. Yes, a finger can exert a lot of pressure and more than enough to knock one of those stones free. Or even crack a diamond itself (I've done this myself, I used to sleep with my pave ring, then in my sleep I hit my ring JUST at the RIGHT angle and cracked a diamond completely).

    So you take that. And you make it into a ring that goes around your finger. That's nice low to your finger and protected. And you make sure to keep the width to 2mm for strength. That's fine.

    But then you make it into to halo and put it around a stone that is sitting above the finger and you can't keep that to 2mm on the halo, because you want a delicate look. So that gets less safe because of where you wear it and because of the metal being thinner.

    So... what happens with bad pave? Yes, it can break but most of the time unless you've gone stupidly thin on the shank (less than 2mm is stupid for reference). But more likely it will not have the strength to handle all that banging around you will lose stones.

    I know this from personal experience. I had inferior pave and after a year I only wore it out of the house NEVER in the house. And after 2 years it sat in my jewelry box because every time I wore it a stone would get loose and every three times I wore it, it would lose stones.

    Mine was platinum. And handforged. And it was by an artist whose work is featured in museums. But no one here had gotten work from her before.

    What did I do? I had it redone by Steven Kirsch. An artist that MANY happy PSers had gotten pave from. And I have not had an issue since.

    Yes, ERD has done HUNDREDS of these settings. And I have not heard of anyone having a problem with the quality of the manufacturing or the workmanship of ERD. And I would have heard.

    So... yes, a pave double halo is NOT a lifestyle friendly setting. It is not one you want to size since it does have that pave on the shank. And it is a setting that needs to be cared for.

    It's a luxury item. Not a workhorse. Wearing pave 24/7 is not recommended.
     
    


    


  5. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    Oh and yes, ERD can do that for 3500 in platinum. Easily.

    DID YOUR LADY ASK FOR A HALO with that style of pave?

    If she didn't... you may want to re-think getting her one. You can get a bright cut pave halo, that will be safer. Or you can skip the halo, and there are a TON of gorgeous settings out there without halos that you might want to consider.
     
  6. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    Also you are going to need help finding and Emerald Cut. We can help with that.
     
  7. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 3, 2014
    Very enlightening, just the answers I was looking for.

    I do understand now the issue with resizing with a pave setting. And you're correct, I (she) wants a single halo as in the Tiffany setting.

    Solutions to make this a more durable setting would include increasing the band width to fit larger stones? I definitely like the look of V-cut (this is where the band is round in cross-section and a channel is created, right?) over a square cross-section band.

    I am a man of logic, so I get where you're coming from with the durability remarks. My future wife is not so logical, and I think from rings she has shown to me, she has a fairly strong opinion on the look she is going for.. so she may just have to deal with the impracticality of it. :tongue:

    She almost 100% wants a halo... I suspect disappointment if it is not. I prefer the look of a solitare setting, but this is not something where my preference wins of course.

    Regarding the emerald cut diamond... sure, I'd always like some help. I am on a budget (ideally center stone < $12000), so keep that in mind. In general, my goals are respected certification, VS1 or better (if VS1 and not VVS, the inclusion should be "hidden")... H color (my understanding is it is very difficult to tell H from D unless compared directly under good lighting)... very good cut (this grading seems arbitrary between vendors).. with a shallow depth and large table, ratio close to 1.4 than 1.3. As an example, I like the specs on this diamond: https://www.pricescope.com/diamond/ae96db6ee794deec8ac74e5e01733425

    Am I totally off base with what I'm looking for?
     
  8. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    OK. So the pave halo is not negotiable. Then, I suggest the best quality you can afford in platinum. :wink2:

    Specs are largely meaningless with Emerald Cuts.

    You can use them to disqualify SOME stones. But for the most part Performance and spread are all that matters. (I'll explain that separately).

    I would stick to H or better color like you said. And eyeclean VS2 or better clarity (SI while often eyeclean in brilliant cuts, is 99% of the time not eyeclean in step cuts) but Vs2 can often be eyeclean.



    Here's the difference between V cut and Bright Cut.

    The first is bright cut pave.
    The second is v-cut.

    r5014-bright-cut-pave.jpg

    rahaminov-pear-halo-ring-pave-band-white-gold_1.jpg
     
  9. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    I own v-cut myself.

    Layla%20Steven%20Reset_1.jpg

    But I went for a plain shank, and limited the pave to my halo and wedding band.

    My pave is by Steven Kirsch. But I can tell you honestly I would have gone with ERD with NO issue.

    Now that's enough about pave.

    Let's talk ECs.
     
  10. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 3, 2014
    So yes, V-cut, the more delicate one of course haha

    Do you agree that a shallow depth with large table is ideal for an emerald cut to maximum the size appearance? Meaning, a diamond with these specs can appear larger than a higher carat diamond with large depth and small table?
     
    


    


  11. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    Emerald cuts:
    The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
    How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
    How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king. With fancies though (anything other than a round brilliant), that is a little complicated. But no other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut.

    There really is no other way to determine if you have a good emerald cut is to see images of the stones, and then you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.

    That's what an ASET image does. http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=education-performance Please read.
    And ASET shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return That is why you won't see us recommending vendors like Blue Nile, as they do not provide images or ASET images for their diamonds. James Allen and Good Old Gold do this. So do Brian Gavin, B2C and Whiteflash and High Performance Diamonds. ERD does too, for stones they source for you.



    HORRIBLE ASET (Grade F):
    image_1596.jpg


    Great ASET (Grade A):
    323713aset.jpg


    Also helpful are videos and GOG and JA have videos. So you can see the stone in motion and see how the facets flash on and off.
     
  12. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    NO! You do not want a glasssy flat pancake stone.

    Ideally you want the depth % greater than the table%. ANd you want to see a higher crown.


    NO. Emeralds NEED depth to give you that deep pool look.

    Don't get me wrong, you can get the occasional pancake stone that is nice. But most will have low crowns and tend toward a glassy look instead of life and fire. But as a general rule you are going to be looking at stones with depths over 64%-69% (AGAIN YOU DO NOT NARROW BY NUMBERS. PERFORMANCE ONLY) and tables around 61% and under.
     
  13. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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  14. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    I'd buy this one now. That's how good this stone is. I feel like I struck GOLD.

    http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-4754059-1.60-carat-Emerald-diamond-H-color-VVS1-clarity.aspx

    Seriously stunning stone. Please put it on hold at least.

    The depth is on the shallow side (good for spread and obviously is not negatively impacting performance from that ASET).
    The ASET is just KILLER.
    Safe girdle.
    Table is fine.
    And the picture shows a knock out stone as well.

    Good new is. at $9,000 that means IF YOU WANT TO you can afford to get a handforged setting in platinum!
     
  15. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014

    Nope. You aren't listening.

    The numbers are something you look at AFTER you have seen the stone and confirmed its got potential. And they are only informational at that point too. Just so you know what you are looking at.

    Let me show you want I mean.


    Here are two emerald cuts. One is a dud. One has potential. VERY similar stats. JUST LOOKING AT THE STATS CAN YOU TELL WHICH HAS POTENTIAL and which one is a complete dud just from the numbers?

    62% table. 67% depth. Ex/Ex polish symmetry. Good girdle stats. 1.37 l/w ratio.
    http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/emerald-cut/1.51-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-sku-319053

    62% table. 68% depth. Ex/Ex polish symmetry. Good girdle stats. 1.35 l/w ratio.
    http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/emerald-cut/1.52-carat-g-color-vvs1-clarity-sku-304868


    NO. You can't STATS ARE NOT FOR SELECTION. They are just to check for rejection AFTER you know you have a stone that has potential;.
     
    


    


  16. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 3, 2014
    What do I mean by "for rejection"... you don't want a very thin girdle. You can't want a super shallow stone. Or a very large table usually.

    So AFTER you have looked at the pictures and videos. THEN you look at the stats. And you can rule out things are less than desirable. BUT EVEN THEN if the ASET is strong, you may be okay with a pancake stone. But the very thin girdle you pretty much don't want to have as it is a durability issue.
     
  17. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 4, 2014
    Ok... so if I'm hearing you correctly shouldn't look details at stats when searching.. so INITIALLY I should choose a budget, carat, clarity and I guess ratio... and then see a real image or ASET of the stone? Then look at the finer details after?

    I guess I'm trying to figure out how to do an initial search for a good stone, so that I can then see it/get an ASET?

    I don't see an ASET on the jamesallen, so I assume you're looking at the 40x picture to show which one is better? To me, the second one (ending 868) appears better. Hopefully that's the one you're referring to with potential.

    The b2cjewels diamond does look good. It's dimensions seem decent for a 1.6 carat.. although now you're going to tell me that the length and width measurements aren't what makes one stone look bigger than another. The next thing I'm going to say makes me cringe.. but part of me wants to get closer to a 1.75 carat so when the eventual question comes up, I can tell her it's closer to 2 than 1.5. That said, I definitely will go with a smaller stone if it outperforms the larger one at a better price.
     
  18. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 4, 2014
    Also, I attempted to put a hold on the diamond you linked me to... couldn't do it. Received this reply "This diamond is currently stocked with one of our diamond partners in Asia and as per our business terms with this diamond partner we will only be able to hold this diamond after we receive a full payment for the diamond."
     
  19. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 4, 2014
    You got one part right. Length and Width dimensions are EXACTLY what you should be paying attention to. Not weight. And that is a VERY good sized stone for 1.6 carats and is going be bigger than most stones of it's weight, or even up to 10 points bigger.

    You narrow by color and clarity. So H VS2 or better.
    Forgot l/w ratio. That's a nice way to dismiss otherwise nice stones. Just make sure you like the look of it. Your eyes tall you that better than any number.
    THEN just look at the stones. Do they look bright? Are all the facets lighting up. Then check the stats to see what they tell you.
    If there is an ASET posted, that's easy. READ IT.
    IF there isn't one posted, then post the link/image for us. We'll tell you if it is worth getting an ASET of.
    James Allen only provides you with 3 ASETs per picture, SO CHOSE CAREFULLY.
    A

    And I can tell you know, that the B2C EC is the NICEST STONE I'VE SEEN THIS YEAR. And I help people every day on here.

    ARGH. Really? I hate that. You have to buy it. SHOOT. They do have a good return policy. Sigh...
     
  20. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 4, 2014
    You are definitely pushing for that stone... I might give in. Glad I got one thing right :bigsmile: In my current field, objective measurements are pretty darn important... although gut feeling can play a strong role too. But with this, it definitely seems objective measurements are less than I thought they were and that's throwing me off. Although I really like the idea of the ASET image. That is certainly objective.

    I'll try again... would this be worth getting an ASET image of: http://www.eternitybyyoni.com/diamond_detail.php?id=1544167 (it's also on B2Cjewels, but for a higher price)
     
  21. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 4, 2014

    Again, you aren't shopping from images. Unless B2C has the picture posted. How do you know it's a good stone?

    B2C can usually get ASETs. Eternity by Yoni can't. And B2C will price match. So hopefully you aren't completely ignoring what I am telling you and going back to stone without images posted.

    If there is an image posted link me to it and I'll tell you if it is worth your time.
     
  22. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 4, 2014
    No, not ignoring, I misunderstood. I thought you could tell me based on the info you saw in the link whether or not to request an ASET. Didn't know that was restricted to stones with real images. So I essentially should only be searching for a diamond with real pictures... which definitely limits my choices.

    Do they charge if I request an ASET?

    Livechat guy is telling me I can place a "pay by phone" order and cancel it later if I change my mind.. not sure if they're trying to pull a fast one on me or not.
     
  23. Gypsy
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Gypsy » Jul 4, 2014
    It's not my money. And I'm not the one on the phone.

    And I've never bought from B2C though I have seen others on here do so happily. They are a relatively new vendor on here. If it were one of the other vendors I would be absolutely confident in what advice to tell you.

    I do know that they honor their return policies. But since the stone is overseas I don't know what hoops, if any there are and what the timing is on the shipping.

    I did post for Diamond Hawk, but since it's a holiday... I'm not sure what to tell you.
     
  24. OoohShiny
    Ideal_Rock

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    by OoohShiny » Jul 4, 2014
    Some great input on this thread, Gypsy, you are an asset to this community :appl: :)
     
  25. diamondseeker2006
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by diamondseeker2006 » Jul 4, 2014
    Gypsy has given you excellent advice about emerald cuts. But I think you are doing this the hard way! Fancy cut diamonds are very hard to buy from a vendor that is primarily a drop shipper. B2C primarily has a list of virtual stones, some of which are not located in this country, and many are listed by hundreds of other vendors. That is why a stone can be on hold somewhere else at any point in time.

    I strongly recommend using a vendor that specializes in finding well cut stones like Good Old Gold. They call in stones within your budget and check them for light performance. Then they will make you a video like these. The first one is one they made for me when I needed a small asscher for a right hand ring. I found an outstanding asscher that I would never have found otherwise. Jonathan knows which cutters supply the best asschers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7SBfNGxTFE&list=UUEV7slr-i-VduBBnfv9MxhA&index=2

    This video is a great tutorial on emerald cuts and shows how the ASET is not sufficient alone to predict light performance with an EC. I recommend that you watch it regardless of where you buy, but it shows why I would only buy an EC with an expert like Jonathan picking it for me. His OCD nature is perfect for this task of choosing the best diamond! GOG is closed today, open part of the day Saturday, closed Sun and Mon, reopens on Tuesday.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ez7p6w_Rv8&list=UUEV7slr-i-VduBBnfv9MxhA&index=81

    I would also recommend Maytal Hannah for the setting in addition to ERD. I believe her own engagement ring is an emerald cut in a halo, but with a different shank than you want. I know she has young children, so perhaps she can tell you first hand how a pave ring is in that stage of life! She has worked for Tiffany, so she is a good one to make your setting.

    http://www.maytalhannah.com/

    I think hers is #12 and it appears to be bright cut, but obviously she has done many of the other style as well.
     
  26. diamondseeker2006
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by diamondseeker2006 » Jul 4, 2014
    In that video, Jon shows that you cannot generalize that the table needs to be smaller than depth or you may miss an excellent stone:

    http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/11167/

    Also, if your total budget is $15k, I would try to find a diamond closer to the $11k range and maximize size of the center stone, if possible.
     
  27. artdecolover71
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by artdecolover71 » Jul 4, 2014
    GOG is excellent at working within budget and color/clarity/size parameters (you can click my topics and see my new EC from GOG and custom setting to my specs by timeless designs)
     
  28. tyty333
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by tyty333 » Jul 4, 2014
    Gypsy has given you some great advice.

    Posting one of my favorites on JA...
    http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/emerald-cut/1.71-carat-h-color-vs1-clarity-sku-269577

    Here is the short list of JA stones that fit with specs/budget.
    http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/emerald-cut/?CaratFrom=1.49&CaratTo=15.00&Color=H,G,F,E&Clarity=VS1,VVS2,VS2&PriceFrom=200&PriceTo=11200&Sort=Price%20asc,%20DefaultOrder&TabSelected=3&DiamondID=348734,276736,349679,270530,269577,286919

    I agree with whoever it was that said to budget stone
    at $11k and $4k for the setting. You really want a good quality setting. ERD just did one that I thought looked amazing.
    Let me find the post...

    Here it is. This halo probably has bigger stones in it then you will want but the amount of metal showing is minimal.
    https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/erd-ring-just-arrived.203432/#post-3703502#p3703502
     
  29. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 4, 2014
    Thank you for the recommendations. I think I spent an hour watching various videos from GOG... I'm beginning to think that maybe I do need an expert like that to pick something for me. I really hate the idea of having the person I'm purchasing from pick for me, as I'm inherently untrusting of salespeople. Hence why I've been trying to do my own research on the subject.

    Some of Maytal's rings definitely are more of the style I'm looking at. I will consider contacting her for a quote. Mark from ERD is asking $3800 for the setting.
     
  30. evankrobinson
    Rough_Rock

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    by evankrobinson » Jul 4, 2014
    Trying my hand again at this...

    Here are two diamonds WITH pictures from James Allen I'm looking at. One has better depth/table ratios than the other (per Gypsy), but now I don't know what to think after GOG says it doesn't always matter if you have a flatter stone.

    http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/emerald-cut/?CaratFrom=1.53&CaratTo=15.00&Color=H,G,F,E,D&Clarity=VS1,VVS2,VS2,VVS1,IF&PriceFrom=200&PriceTo=12000&Sort=Carat%20desc%20,DefaultOrder&TabSelected=3&DiamondID=299444,351734

    Both are within the price range, maybe going a bit over with a $3800 setting. But the length and width on them are quite impressive. And from the GOG videos, it appears there is minimal leakage (I guess you need an ASET to know for sure though?).
     

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