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Where has the labor force gone?

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westofhere

Guest
The question is whether an American citizen should have to struggle to make it out of poverty because they work full time but can’t afford housing, food and health care. I personally believe that everyone who works full time should receive a wage that covers those things. I’m fine with people choosing whether to struggle beyond subsistence, but I’m not ok with adult human beings working full time and not being able to subsist.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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33,852
Just want to add, my parents likewise made it to a point of prosperity from the days of my dad making only $500 a month, while my mom sewed tags in a garment factory in LA for 2 cents each too supplement his income.

It seems to me lots of non-immigrant Americans complain about how unfair things are and it's the fault of corporations and this and that that it's "impossible" to earn a decent living wage. But I see lots and lots of people who do make it out, my family included, so I'm left scratching my head, because yes conditions are hard, but definitely not impossible.
Most Americans never been in our shoes. We are immigrants from the 60's and when my parents retired they were homeowners with no debt, so I'm sick and tire of hearing excuses after excuses of why American born citizens can't live w/o government assisted programs.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
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May 13, 2018
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5,161
Most Americans never been in our shoes. We are immigrants from the 60's and when my parents retired they were homeowners with no debt, so I'm sick and tire of hearing excuses after excuses of why American born citizens can't live w/o government assisted programs.

We immigrated in the 90s, so I'm sure that $500 a month for a family of 3 was below whatever the government poverty line determination was. The point is we worked our way up without welfare and didn't stay there. So there was social mobility, and it was not completely impossible.
 

Lookinagain

Ideal_Rock
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Most Americans never been in our shoes. We are immigrants from the 60's and when my parents retired they were homeowners with no debt, so I'm sick and tire of hearing excuses after excuses of why American born citizens can't live w/o government assisted programs.

The 60’s were generally still enjoying the benefits of post war booming America. And the 60’s were 60 years ago.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
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18,023
I'm sorry, but the idea that just because you made it out of poverty @voce and @Dancing Fire that everyone can is just not true.

@voce People have already pointed out why your own experience is not the same as people with zero help who are not students. So extrapolating from it just doesnt make sense.

This reminds me of hazing. Basically, "I suffered and made it, so you can too!". The attitude leads people to not want to help others avoid unfair situations, but rather to perpetuate them.
 
W

westofhere

Guest
And all welfare is corporate welfare. Welfare to individuals is simply the government (and thus all of us taxpayers) doing what corporations should do but won’t, which is pay workers a living wage. Every tax payer subsidizes the wealth of billionaires.
 

ItsMainelyYou

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
4,756
The question is whether an American citizen should have to struggle to make it out of poverty because they work full time but can’t afford housing, food and health care. I personally believe that everyone who works full time should receive a wage that covers those things. I’m fine with people choosing whether to struggle beyond subsistence, but I’m not ok with adult human beings working full time and not being able to subsist.

Yes.
Most Americans never been in our shoes. We are immigrants from the 60's and when my parents retired they were homeowners with no debt, so I'm sick and tire of hearing excuses after excuses of why American born citizens can't live w/o government assisted programs.

That's not entirely true. Many Americans were able to build from nothing during the postwar boom generation. They called it The Golden Age of Capitalism.

Also hold onto your wig, DF but it was the MOST SOCIALIST America has ever been.
Most Americans of that generation were in your shoes, it's why boomers hold all the wealth. It's easy to write it off when you're sitting on equity.
You benefitted the most from socialist programs/principles and tax structures.
It's why I always get a kick out of you poo pooing what got you where you are.
Times have changed and not to the newer generations' advantage.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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How do I not know? I know immigrant grad students. I know friends who have been dirt poor all of their lives until they finally made it out. I myself have lived poor for years of my life. How can you assume I don't? And it's you who keeps bringing up "deserving". All of these people deserve better, but some actually manage to achieve better.
nod.gif ...Been there!
 
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westofhere

Guest
Don’t worry: DF will be paying the gov’t back for his children’s free semi-socialized education, and after he’s received back from social security and Medicaid everything he put in—which happens in our early 70s—he’ll refuse to accept any more because he knows the truth: that all Americans, in old age, become welfare queens, accepting more than we contributed and leaving it to future generations to deal with.
 

voce

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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5,161
I'm sorry, but the idea that just because you made it out of poverty @voce and @Dancing Fire that everyone can is just not true.

@voce People have already pointed out why your own experience is not the same as people with zero help who are not students. So extrapolating from it just doesnt make sense.

This reminds me of hazing. Basically, "I suffered and made it, so you can too!". The attitude leads people to not want to help others avoid unfair situations, but rather to perpetuate them.

I am certainly not saying my experience is representative. I'm just trying to say that poverty is not as absolute and simplistic as people make it out to be. There are cases where honest good hardworking people still find it hard to make ends meet. But there are also people who stayed in poverty on purpose just to keep milking the welfare system (my coworker described her own family as having done so). There are people who make bad decisions regarding drugs and are poor because of that.

Reality is not only the single, biased story of corporate greed. This is my main point.

I count myself a progressive because I am at least willing to try UBI and am in favor of single payer universal health care. I don't want a different outcome than you all do. I just don't like it when people try to paint a black and white story where there's a single clear bad actor because that's just not reality as I see it.
 

ItsMainelyYou

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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I am certainly not saying my experience is representative. I'm just trying to say that poverty is not as absolute and simplistic as people make it out to be. There are cases where honest good hardworking people still find it hard to make ends meet. But there are also people who stayed in poverty on purpose just to keep milking the welfare system (my coworker described her own family as having done so). There are people who make bad decisions regarding drugs and are poor because of that.

Reality is not only the single, biased story of corporate greed. This is my main point.

I count myself a progressive because I am at least willing to try UBI and am in favor of single payer universal health care. I don't want a different outcome than you all do. I just don't like it when people try to paint a black and white story where there's a single clear bad actor because that's just not reality as I see it.

And I respect your perspective.
I don't agree with it, but I'm glad your here to say your piece.
 

Cerulean

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 13, 2019
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5,077
Also I’m sorry but no one on this thread had any idea of anyone’s immigrant status. I come from a family of immigrants too, so I guess I’m just a piss and moaning, entitled red blooded American in disguise?

Do persecuted refugees count, or does that not quite measure up to the illustrious, all-knowing status of other progeny of hard working immigrants on this thread? :boohoo:
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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33,852
i'm not an economist to know what level but how about from that same place that prints money for corporate bailouts?

from what i've read, economists have mixed opinions on UBI but what we're doing now doesn't work, the experiment in Stockton CA yielded good results, why not try more pilot programs?
Lets do it!...please pay off my daughter's mortgage so they can retire tomorrow.
 
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westofhere

Guest
Our background absolutely plays a part. When I as a white person see immigrants of color defending a country whose white founders believed people of color were inferior, who said all men are created equal but didn’t live those beliefs, I want our country to step up and ensure equality of opportunity. For me, a living wage is part of that. For me, a country that pays less than a living wage demonstrates that it thinks not all human beings are equal.
 

bludiva

Ideal_Rock
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Sep 23, 2017
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3,076
Most Americans never been in our shoes. We are immigrants from the 60's and when my parents retired they were homeowners with no debt, so I'm sick and tire of hearing excuses after excuses of why American born citizens can't live w/o government assisted programs.

I come from an immigrant family too and it's not a fair comparison to make to anyone struggling here today, frankly.

My grandparents were able to come here with nothing, grandpa started a bakery, grandma stayed home, they bought a house in SF, then another one, and retired comfortably overseas.

My parents started with nothing (they didn't get anything from grandparents), my dad worked his butt off his whole life and never got further than working class. My mom has expensive chronic health issues and we were struggling growing up.

My generation, started with nothing again because parents were struggling. Worked our butts off to get through school, pay off students loans, get a foothold. None of us could follow the same path immigrants did in the 60s. They worked hard, yes, but the barrier to entry was WAY lower. Easier to come to the US, easier to start a business, easier to get healthcare if you were self-employed, not necessary to have a college degree to find a decent-paying job.

It would be easy for me to say, I worked hard and succeeded and so can anyone else but I know how hard it has been for me just to move from working to middle class. I'm sick of hearing suck it up when the kids who came up 10 years behind me have even higher tuition/housing/medical costs and can look forward to even lower wages. And I'm tired of the argument of where will we find the money when we've found trillions for wars, military, the corona vaccine, bailouts, etc.

Sorry to rant but you hit a nerve there. I think I was at the tail end of it still being possible, people who came after have been squeezed even more in the last couple of decades. They don't need an avocado toast lecture.
 
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Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
33,852
Most Americans of that generation were in your shoes, it's why boomers hold all the wealth. It's easy to write it off when you're sitting on equity.
You benefitted the most from socialist programs/principles and tax structures.
It's why I always get a kick out of you poo pooing what got you where you are.
Times have changed and not to the newer generations' advantage.
Far from it!...All 4 of us can't speak English. In 1969 my brother got a job working in a Chinese restaurant kitchen (12 hrs a day) for $260 per month to support a family of 4. We would have easily qualified for welfare but refused to go that route.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
33,852
And it wasn’t a socialist who dismantled the middle class in the 80s, speaking to what @bludiva’s describing. It was a Republican.
How old were you during the hyper inflation yrs of the late 70s - early 80's?.
FYI, it only took 2 yrs of a (R) Prez. to finally have inflation under control.
 

MakingTheGrade

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Mar 2, 2009
Messages
12,936
I was born overseas, am an immigrant, grew up lower SES and my parents had no connections or support here in the US. That being said I had the privilege of having a 2 parent household who were both employed, stable housing, stable food availability, bodily safety, and a safe neighborhood. More than I can say for so many youth I work with these days. And so much of that can be tied into poverty and resource disparity.

I live in a big city and every restaurant is desperate to hire. But a lot of that work force had to leave the city during pandemic since they couldn’t afford to live here anymore when they were laid off. Many that could changed industries entirely since not working for a year (even with covid payments and unemployment) isn’t sustainable. And a lot of the upscale places complain about lack of workers but also don’t want to hire people with no service experience or who don’t match the “aesthetic” of the restaurant (apparently having visible tattoos or piercings makes you unfit to serve food in some places. Funny, doesn’t keep me from practicing medicine just fine). I had many friends in that work sector pre pandemic and the vast majority had to move back to live with family. Those that made it through are now in a great position, but those that left can’t exactly come back at the drop of a dime.

Personally I’m glad places are being forced to offer things like full time positions with benefits and more competitive salaries to service industry. I’m happy to pay more and eat out less if it means the staff aren’t living off tips or working 3 part time jobs.

I’m curious if the work force limitations will apply more pressure towards automation, which over time will lead to its own issues.
 

MRBXXXFVVS1

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
1,450
A few thoughts:

1 - Many people have valid reasons for needing government assistance. It's too bad some people abuse the intent of the assistance for personal profit/benefit. Unfortunately, COVID has really highlighted how most humans are selfish.

2 - I know a lot of people who "made it" and became very successful coming from nothing. It can be done with lots of hard work and some privilege/luck. What I try to remember is the people I know and PSers (this is a diamond forum after all) are a small, self-selected group that obviously "made it." Everyone's situation is different.

The question is, how can we create a system or infrastructure to only help those truly in need?
 

ItsMainelyYou

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
4,756
Far from it!...All 4 of us can't speak English. In 1969 my brother got a job working in a Chinese restaurant kitchen (12 hrs a day) for $260 per month to support a family of 4. We would have easily qualified for welfare but refused to go that route
That's an amazing journey, but you still benefitted from a socialist government that enabled great buying power that supported social mobility.
 

oceanblue

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
231
Everyone is becoming more entitled period.

I don't think people realize that it not just people below poverty level that are benefiting from government handouts, its the middle class and above.

When we moved to Texas the school system almost begged me to apply for free food (breakfast and lunch). After numerous phone calls, emails, texts I finally asked if they knew something I did not about our finances. They replied that income is self reported and no one checks to see if it accurate. This year it is free to everyone.
And it is not something plain and basic.

Its to much. The government should help people out to get over a hump but not for life.
 

bludiva

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Sep 23, 2017
Messages
3,076
When we moved to Texas the school system almost begged me to apply for free food (breakfast and lunch)

I wonder if they were benefiting somehow from the $ allocated for the food programs ... a lot of misaligned incentives out there creating waste. My parents were in the opposite situation, like DF's brother, not wanting to take handouts even if they qualified for it. I think for the sake of kids it's better the way some districts do it, where everyone gets a free breakfast/lunch if they want to, so as not to ostracize the poorer kids or leave out the ones who's parents don't know or don't want to use the program.

Anyway.... I'm going to exit this thread with this cheeky little meme (yeah, it's an oversimplification, but makes me laugh) :mrgreen:

1628006829191.png
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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W

westofhere

Guest
One thing I’ve found is that many people on both sides of the aisle (myself included) feel the stimulus money should have gone only to those with need, not to those of us who don’t.

My extremely rightwing father was incensed at these handouts and so decided to give all of his away in tips (yes, his rightwing self kept going to restaurants through the whole d*mned pandemic). This turned into stress for me, b/c waitresses kept hugging him when he’d tip! No social distancing in a hug!
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
33,852
One thing I’ve found is that many people on both sides of the aisle (myself included) feel the stimulus money should have gone only to those with need, not to those of us who don’t.

My extremely rightwing father was incensed at these handouts and so decided to give all of his away in tips (yes, his rightwing self kept going to restaurants through the whole d*mned pandemic). This turned into stress for me, b/c waitresses kept hugging him when he’d tip! No social distancing in a hug!
Your father sounds like a very nice person. :clap: I would like to meet him. He can teach me about politics.
 
W

westofhere

Guest
Your father sounds like a very nice person. :clap: I would like to meet him. He can teach me about politics.

Ok, you finally made me smile with that one! Unfortunately, DF, though I love him, like many conservatives he’s a racist, and would not regard you as an equal human being.
 

MountainJuls

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
34
We have recently moved from CA(Silicon Valley) to Western NC. I am seeing similar things regarding labor in both towns, as well as similar scenarios on our drive across the US. Fast food and restaurants that relied heavily on low skill labor are short staffed, hotels and such that could automate or reduce part of the process to compensate for labor shortage have gone that route.
Our own personal experience is our daughter could hardly get a job in CA during high school two years ago. She just wanted pocket money and to gain life experience and finally got a part time job after an entire year and more than 100 applications and over a dozen interviews. It was shocking how many fast food and coffee places wanted prior experience. Every place that she got an interview directly asked her if she needed to support herself or her family and would not hire her because she wasn't. She felt lucky to finally get a fast food job and was excited to have disposable income of her own. She worked with mainly 30yr olds who held multiple jobs. Fast forward to this year, my recently turned 15 yr old son got his first job in our new town the week after we arrived sight unseen, with no interview, no application, having never stepped foot on the location. He wasn't even planning to work this year but is young enough to be excited at the prospect of earning but not too interested in spending what he is earning. He has also seen that many adults are struggling later in life because they can't seem to get ahead. He is determined to earn and save now to get a leg up on life while he can. He is working with mainly teens and they are all talking about how they are saving up for car, college tuition, and apartments/houses. They seem to already know that if they want these things and don't want to go into scary debt that they will have to save and do it for themselves. It is a stark difference between just a couple years ago-the carefree attitude of money come, money go seems to be gone. But I think that overall it is a good thing because kids these days more than prior generations are quite coddled and need to get off their devices and learn how to work, learn how to manage money, how to have responsibilities, and contribute toward their own welfare.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
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33,852
Ok, you finally made me smile with that one! Unfortunately, DF, though I love him, like many conservatives he’s a racist, and would not regard you as an equal human being.
So he wouldn't talk a old yellow skin dude like me?
 
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