Where has the labor force gone?

[voce]

Because it is unnecessary in America. Why would we continue to match developing countries for the sake of continued profit margins while lowering quality living metrics?
Because that's partly what this is. That's the point, it's not a situation we should aspire to. It isn't should be, it is what can be. We should be pulling other countries up in labor rights not downgrading to meet them as some inevitability.

I agree it's unnecessary. But most Americans are buying cheap stuff manufactured from overseas, not local products. The status quo will continue unless we take a cue from Switzerland and develop a self-sustaining or export-based economy.

I still don't think you grasp my argument. I don't disagree with you about the should, or who deserves. I think I deserve a lot more than what I am entitled to.

Just because everyone deserves a list of A too Z doesn't mean it's feasible to provide it for everyone. The earth and any economy has limits. We are having trouble feeding the world with changing climate conditions. How do you think it's possible to have your standard of living conditions provided to everyone who deserves?

There is a vast gap between the "should" and the "is".

Just because we aspire or should or "need" to do better, doesn't mean we're capable of it.

Like I always say to newbies looking at colored gems, just because you want something, doesn't mean you can necessarily get it, especially not on your terms with a limited budget. Thus, you should be mediating your expectations.

Housing, food, healthcare are likewise commodities for which realistic people should be mediating their expectations when budgets are limited. Idealistic people unwilling to bow to reality think that America has unlimited resources.

You know how you can remove the constraint on government budget? Just have a socialist revolution. Re-appropriate the property from the haves to the have-nots.

But there you run afoul of justice, property rights. Absolute equality is philosophically antithetical to justice.

 

[123ducklings]

In America 600,000 extra people died in the last year. Vastly more suffered debilitating illness. Laborers like line cooks and factory workers experienced a 50-60% increase in mortality associated with the pandemic.

 

[westofhere]

There are no political systems that function in their pure state, nor should there be. Take all the ways in which democracy and capitalism are fundamentally opposed. A logical outcome of a pure capitalist society would be that you pay workers nothing and own them instead, or that, where you can, you steal land instead of buying it. Those make sense when profit comes before all else and a market is allowed to be fully free. And yet we decided as a country that those crimes against humanity without which America would not have existed could not morally be allowed to continue. At the same time, in the name of capitalism we’ve sold our souls so we can pay that illegal labor force next to nothing, and allow a homeless population of half a million to exist, and build a racist for-profit prison industry.

 

[voce]

There are no political systems that function in their pure state, nor should there be. Take all the ways in which democracy and capitalism are fundamentally opposed. A logical outcome of a pure capitalist society would be that you pay workers nothing and own them instead, or that, where you can, you steal land instead of buying it. Those make sense when
profit comes before all else and a market ids allowed to be fully free. And yet we decided as a country that those crimes against humanity without which America would not have existed could not morally be allowed to continue. At the same time, in the name of capitalism we’ve sold our souls so we can pay that illegal labor force next to nothing, and allow a homeless population of half a million to exist, and build a racist for-profit prison industry.

This is very very true. There are no absolutes when it comes to politics. Everything is give and take and compromise.

 

[Cerulean]

Ayuh, and I chose 1200.00 rent/mortgage as that is the absolute cheapest you could maybe find around here. Studio/1br rent. Rural New England pricing that's disappearing because it's all quickly becoming 'bedroom' commuter communities for Boston. I moved to the boonies because it was cheap and inconvenient. I would have to stretch to afford another house in my own town now.

I know how pricey New England is! My father lives off social security in rural Maine and he couldn’t find rent for less than $1200. I send him money otherwise there’s no way he could afford basics like utilities and groceries.

 

[westofhere]

This is very very true. There are no absolutes when it comes to politics. Everything is give and take and compromise.

And the bottom line is that every political system is messed up because of greed and and a desire for power. And every political system pretends it’s not. It’s just more morally repugnant when the virtues we pretend are so obviously in opposition to what we practice.

 

[Cerulean]

I agree it's unnecessary. But most Americans are buying cheap stuff manufactured from overseas, not local products. The status quo will continue unless we take a cue from Switzerland and develop a self-sustaining or export-based economy.

I still don't think you grasp my argument. I don't disagree with you about the should, or who deserves. I think I deserve a lot more than what I am entitled to.

Just because everyone deserves a list of A too Z doesn't mean it's feasible to provide it for everyone. The earth and any economy has limits. We are having trouble feeding the world with changing climate conditions. How do you think it's possible to have your standard of living conditions provided to everyone who deserves?

There is a vast gap between the "should" and the "is".

Just because we aspire or should or "need" to do better, doesn't mean we're capable of it.

Like I always say to newbies looking at colored gems, just because you want something, doesn't mean you can necessarily get it, especially not on your terms with a limited budget. Thus, you should be mediating your expectations.

Housing, food, healthcare are likewise commodities for which realistic people should be mediating their expectations when budgets are limited. Idealistic people unwilling to bow to reality think that America has unlimited resources.

You know how you can remove the constraint on government budget? Just have a socialist revolution. Re-appropriate the property from the haves to the have-nots.

But there you run afoul of justice, property rights. Absolute equality is philosophically antithetical to justice.

I do understand your vantage point. In fact I agree with most of it, I tend to lean pragmatist above all else…but I think having higher ideals is necessary for forward momentum.

Americans as consumers have bad buying habits, and frankly it’s expensive to be poor. We are taught to buy at bottom of the barrel prices, have little value for the things we do buy, and do it all without realizing that the cause and effect of our purchasing habits and wastefulness. But being poor necessitates this as well, even thought cutting corners in the long run is more expensive (i.e. cutting corners and buying cheap processed food causing downstream expensive health problems).

I think the scale at which the disparity exists, and that it is just increasing as time goes on, is what’s so horrifying. The US has the widest income gap out of any g7 nation (the top 7 countries with the most advanced economies) and we should be ashamed of it.

I don’t know that anyone expects us to return to the good ‘ole days - in fact, I wouldn’t want to live in a time where anyone who isn’t a white man is deemed “less than” in the US. I wish there were more social programs in the US that included jobs, like the Works Progress Administration used to…which included incredible programs for creatives too…IMO if we are spending money on social support anyways, I think it would be powerful to do it while giving folks the ability to build their skills and work.

 

[voce]

I do understand your vantage point. In fact I agree with most of it, I tend to lean pragmatist above all else…but I think having higher ideals is necessary for forward momentum.

Americans as consumers have bad buying habits, and frankly it’s expensive to be poor. We are taught to buy at bottom of the barrel prices, have little value for the things we do buy, and do it all without realizing that the cause and effect of our purchasing habits and wastefulness. But being poor necessitates this as well, even thought cutting corners in the long run is more expensive (i.e. cutting corners and buying cheap processed food causing downstream expensive health problems).

I think the scale at which the disparity exists, and that it is just increasing as time goes on, is what’s so horrifying. The US has the widest income gap out of any g7 nation (the top 7 countries with the most advanced economies) and we should be ashamed of it.

I don’t know that anyone expects us to return to the good ‘ole days - in fact, I wouldn’t want to live in a time where anyone who isn’t a white man is deemed “less than” in the US. I wish there were more social programs in the US that included jobs, like the Works Progress Administration used to…which included incredible programs for creatives too…IMO if we are spending money on social support anyways, I think it would be powerful to do it while giving folks the ability to build their skills and work.

I fully agree and understand poor people buying cheap stuff is a chicken and the egg problem; no easy solutions here.

I've made my peace with disparities that exist. I am amenable to trying to do something different from nature. Natural selection does favor disparities. If we are taking the laissez faire approach, doing nothing about the disparities, them social darwinism prevails. I, too, would like to think humans are capable of being better, but I just don't know about what to do when people act selfish within their rights and resist progressive policies. We can each try to do the right thing, but as entrenched as this society is with politics and competing narratives, and misinformation thrown in, I am pessimistic there will be enough momentum to make the changes fast enough relative to other countries.

If you're not progressive, then you're reactionary or think you can maintain the status quo. I think that's unrealistic as well.

I don't ever think we'll return to those days, but I liked American history best when it was Theodore Roosevelt, a boot-strap individualistic Republican pushing for the most reforms, spearheading progressivism, and it was ironically Woodrow Wilson the Democrat, promoter of the League of Nations, who was a racist and misogynist.

Reality is complex, and we should not ever try to dumb things down to the single story.

 

[Sprinkles&Stones]

I have a family member who has TWO doctorates. PhD and a PharmD. She lied on her unemployment application, citing COVID reasons for unemployment. She was not unemployed due to covid. She is making more money per month on unemployment than she made previously. She said she is not going back to work because "why would I go back to work when I can get money for free and stay home". Her exact words.

I work with about 100 clients per day. 98 out of 100 clients cite "I make more money now than before and I am not going back to work until my unemployment money stops".

The owner of my favorite restaurant told me that all of her employees (who are also her family members) quit, and they told her that they make more money on unemployment than they did at actual work.

This is just my anecdotal experience coming in to play. I won't get into what, why, where or how. I won't get into any more detail other than my first hand experience working in my field for the last year and a half.

 

[voce]

You can't just shrug off and ignore evidence contrary to what you believe, regardless of political affiliation, without coming off as wilfully ignorant.

I believe the right thing to do is always to face ALL the facts, adjust your own viewpoint to accommodate all the facts, not just the subset you prefer to consider.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

I do grasp your argument. Fully. I don't agree with large parts of it. Why cast aspersions that it's somehow beyond my ken.

Working 40 hours unskilled labor job, without aspirations to improve your skills, should be enough? This is a very entitled attitude from my personal point of view.

I find it classist and elitist to want to institute what equates to some flavor/function of caste system for the sake of profit margin. It's unnecessary and it's a concept I find grotesque to contemplate. But we're inching closer under the auspice of the big lie of trickle down.
I also believe that we can provide living wages, healthcare and education. Every other first world provides this in some fashion. We can too.

 

[lovedogs]

I do grasp your argument. Fully. I don't agree with large parts of it. Why cast aspersions that it's somehow beyond my ken.

I find it classist and elitist to want to institute what equates to some flavor/function of caste system for the sake of profit margin. It's unnecessary and it's a concept I find grotesque to contemplate. But we're inching closer under the auspice of the big lie of trickle down.
I also believe that we can provide living wages, healthcare and education. Every other first world provides this in some fashion. We can too.

Exactly. Trickle down economics is BS and always has been. If other countries can do this, so can we. It's not idealistic to expect better, because other countries are literally examples of it BEING BETTER!

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

I have a family member who has TWO doctorates. PhD and a PharmD. She lied on her unemployment application, citing COVID reasons for unemployment. She was not unemployed due to covid. She is making more money per month on unemployment than she made previously. She said she is not going back to work because "why would I go back to work when I can get money for free and stay home". Her exact words.

I work with about 100 clients per day. 98 out of 100 clients cite "I make more money now than before and I am not going back to work until my unemployment money stops".

The owner of my favorite restaurant told me that all of her employees (who are also her family members) quit, and they told her that they make more money on unemployment than they did at actual work.

This is just my anecdotal experience coming in to play. I won't get into what, why, where or how. I won't get into any more detail other than my first hand experience working in my field for the last year and a half.

It certainly is anecdotal. And shocking. It just highlights the need for living wages.
* Though if that person was working as a pharmacist they were making 120k or more...waaay more than unemployment provides.

Debunking myths about COVID-19 relief’s ‘unemployment insurance on steroids’ | Brookings

This piece clarifies those misconceptions about UI and the CARES Act, and examines if expanded UI was a legitimate policy response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.brookings.edu

 

[Sprinkles&Stones]

It certainly is anecdotal. And shocking. It just highlights the need for living wages.
* Though if that person was working as a pharmacist they were making 120k or more...waaay more than unemployment provides.

Debunking myths about COVID-19 relief’s ‘unemployment insurance on steroids’ | Brookings

This piece clarifies those misconceptions about UI and the CARES Act, and examines if expanded UI was a legitimate policy response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.brookings.edu

I just know that when my clients say, under oath, that they are making more money on unemployment than working, we can't just ignore that. It is anecdotal, but it's also fact for most of the people i'm working with.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

I just know that when my clients say, under oath, that they are making more money on unemployment than working, we can't just ignore that. It is anecdotal, but it's also fact for most of the people i'm working with.

They very well may be. That's the disparity and contempt we have shown our unskilled labor forces in many respects. We sometimes blame them for being poor like it's some kind of character fault or inherent laziness. That's patently untrue. That's the issue we most certainly should address. We need to implement living wages and better protections.
* With Covid unemployment they average about 46k at 975.00 a week or $22 an hour.

 

[Cerulean]

I fully agree and understand poor people buying cheap stuff is a chicken and the egg problem; no easy solutions here.

I've made my peace with disparities that exist. I am amenable to trying to do something different from nature. Natural selection does favor disparities. If we are taking the laissez faire approach, doing nothing about the disparities, them social darwinism prevails. I, too, would like to think humans are capable of being better, but I just don't know about what to do when people act selfish within their rights and resist progressive policies. We can each try to do the right thing, but as entrenched as this society is with politics and competing narratives, and misinformation thrown in, I am pessimistic there will be enough momentum to make the changes fast enough relative to other countries.

If you're not progressive, then you're reactionary or think you can maintain the status quo. I think that's unrealistic as well.

I don't ever think we'll return to those days, but I liked American history best when it was Theodore Roosevelt, a boot-strap individualistic Republican pushing for the most reforms, spearheading progressivism, and it was ironically Woodrow Wilson the Democrat, promoter of the League of Nations, who was a racist and misogynist.

Reality is complex, and we should not ever try to dumb things down to the single story.

When you are already comfortable…there’s probably some comfort in the hierarchical status quo. I don’t mean to be rude or presumptuous…I’d suspect that people at the bottom of the pecking order wouldn’t be keen on the notion that they are nothing but shoulders to stand on.

I won’t pretend that I’m not uncomfortable with the reality that better funded programs have to come from somewhere…is it my pockets that will be emptied? Perhaps. The facts are that any kind of change, if it happens at all, will be painful, many people will lose, some will win, and some won’t see anything change at all. As you said, reality is complex.

I’m not advocating for pure equality, I don’t know that anybody here is. I think having access to minimum amenities that are known to sustain a reasonable life is not a lofty ambition. It should be a given.

If people want to ride on the coattails of a global pandemic, that’s their problem honestly. It’s interesting how a global tragedy brought everyone, almost equally, to their knees in different ways.

Social systems are there to protect people who need it, not just want it. And sometimes a few who “want” will slip through. Small price to pay IMO.

I think Roosevelt might have been at peace with that too…if the New Deal programs taught us anything, it was that radical change is possible. Different time, different place, different people, same story.

 

[Sprinkles&Stones]

They very well may be. That's the disparity and contempt we have shown our unskilled labor forces in many respects. We sometimes blame them for being poor like it's some kind of character fault or inherent laziness. That's patently untrue. That's the issue we most certainly should address. We need to implement living wages and better protections.

Very true. I just know that I have some friends (who make 50k+ year) and my family member who indeed was making over 100K per year, lied on her application, claimed she couldn't work (when she absolutely could) and was making thousands per month. The fact that people lie about it and take advantage of the system make me so angry. People who CAN work, and make a decent wage SHOULD work.

I had friends who encouraged me to "take time off for myself" and take unemployment because "everyone is doing it". I was busier during covid than i've ever been in my career, and I had friends turning down work because they knew they could cheat the system and get away with it. That money could have helped actual people who needed it. Makes me so angry when that happens. That created a shortage in the work force in my field. So frustrating.

 

[Lookinagain]

But I wouldn’t call someone with two PHDs , one of them a PharmD unskilled. And it does surprise me that someone who worked so hard to attain those preferred not to work. Maybe the locale didn’t pay much for that degree but I think most people prefer working over not working in general. Maybe I’m deluded.
Edit- I see they were making over $100k. So no offense but I just call that lazy and a scam. Perhaps the system should have verified employment layoffs due to Covid. They did try to catch fraudulent claims made in someone else’s name. It happened to 8 of my employees and those fraudulent claims were caught.

 

[bludiva]

I was busier during covid than i've ever been in my career, and I had friends turning down work because they knew they could cheat the system and get away with it.

i was busier than ever too ... i know of lots of business owners who got PPP loans and didn't need them...opportunity for free money in their eyes...i don't know anyone who took a layoff in order to get unemployment but maybe it happens. i think those bad actors are the minority...but when the system seems corrupt or unfair overall more people are going to go ahead and try to cheat and that's something that needs to be brought up every time people talk about the cheaters too.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Very true. I just know that I have some friends (who make 50k+ year) and my family member who indeed was making over 100K per year, lied on her application, claimed she couldn't work (when she absolutely could) and was making thousands per month. The fact that people lie about it and take advantage of the system make me so angry. People who CAN work, and make a decent wage SHOULD work.

I had friends who encouraged me to "take time off for myself" and take unemployment because "everyone is doing it". I was busier during covid than i've ever been in my career, and I had friends turning down work because they knew they could cheat the system and get away with it. That money could have helped actual people who needed it. Makes me so angry when that happens. That created a shortage in the work force in my field. So frustrating.

I fully agree, and I would be angry as well. That's unconscionable.
But I will say that statistically, so far, they are not the norm. This program lifted millions of families, as well as just children, out of poverty for the first time. We can do better, we have the capability.

 

[bludiva]

But I wouldn’t call someone with two PHDs , one of them a PharmD unskilled. And it does surprise me that someone who worked so hard to attain those preferred not to work. Maybe the locale didn’t pay much for that degree but I think most people prefer working over not working in general. Maybe I’m deluded.

i think you're right...there will be some people who would prefer not to but if you offered basic income at a subsistence level and people could go out and make more, most people are going to go work for more

 

[Sprinkles&Stones]

But I wouldn’t call someone with two PHDs , one of them a PharmD unskilled. And it does surprise me that someone who worked so hard to attain those preferred not to work. Maybe the locale didn’t pay much for that degree but I think most people prefer working over not working in general. Maybe I’m deluded.

I must be delusional too, because that's what I thought. Imagine my surprise when I learned that she made more money per month than I did, and I was working full time. She gloated and bragged about all her money for doing NOTHING, while I was busting my butt. There are a sect of people out there are lazy to the core. Maybe she could have made 50% more if she was actually working, but that wasn't enough of a simulator when she knew she could make enough to pay bills, and have extra, without working.

 

[voce]

I do grasp your argument. Fully. I don't agree with large parts of it. Why cast aspersions that it's somehow beyond my ken.

I find it classist and elitist to want to institute what equates to some flavor/function of caste system for the sake of profit margin. It's unnecessary and it's a concept I find grotesque to contemplate. But we're inching closer under the auspice of the big lie of trickle down.
I also believe that we can provide living wages, healthcare and education. Every other first world provides this in some fashion. We can too.

Exactly. Trickle down economics is BS and always has been. If other countries can do this, so can we. It's not idealistic to expect better, because other countries are literally examples of it BEING BETTER!

I say you're not grasping my point because you're still trying to dumb it down. By quoting me and then going off about classism, elitism, and trickle down economics, NONE of which is actually even tangentially close to what I had been trying to express, aren't you casting aspersions and suggesting I hold illiberal views that I don't actually hold?

I don't appreciate being deliberately misconstrued, being automatically assigned a false label because I don't ascribe to groupthink on any issue.

Trickle down economics is not the solution. I'm saying that I am doubting your belief (feasibility wise) that we can provide these things to everyone. It's true that every other first world nation provide them, but without having done the research, I don't know whether every other first world nation has expenditures and government debt to the extent we do. Each individual European nation, after all, has a fraction of our population, and less disparity geographically compared to our nation.

Expectations are expectations, and reality is reality. I fully agree it's possible in theory to do better, but the political reality may yield different answers.

Your expectations and beliefs are not facts and evidence. I noticed you did not deign to respond to the fact that the US government draws the poverty line at a much lower point than you drew it.

 

[Cerulean]

I must be delusional too, because that's what I thought. Imagine my surprise when I learned that she made more money per month than I did, and I was working full time. She gloated and bragged about all her money for doing NOTHING, while I was busting my butt. There are a sect of people out there are lazy to the core. Maybe she could have made 50% more if she was actually working, but that wasn't enough of a simulator when she knew she could make enough to pay bills, and have extra, without working.

Honestly, she’s a loser.

*edited - I know its callous, but I think it’s true. She and folk like her though don’t stop me from wanting to support other people

 

[voce]

It certainly is anecdotal. And shocking. It just highlights the need for living wages.
* Though if that person was working as a pharmacist they were making 120k or more...waaay more than unemployment provides.

Debunking myths about COVID-19 relief’s ‘unemployment insurance on steroids’ | Brookings

This piece clarifies those misconceptions about UI and the CARES Act, and examines if expanded UI was a legitimate policy response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.brookings.edu

I thought it's not a flat $700/wk everywhere. I think it's a percentage of your pre-unemployment pay PLUS an additional $700/wk.

i was busier than ever too ... i know of lots of business owners who got PPP loans and didn't need them...opportunity for free money in their eyes...i don't know anyone who took a layoff in order to get unemployment but maybe it happens. i think those bad actors are the minority...but when the system seems corrupt or unfair overall more people are going to go ahead and try to cheat and that's something that needs to be brought up every time people talk about the cheaters too.

Anecdotally, this happened at the restaurant my mom works at. She has more work for the same pay to do because she didn't work and file for unemployment.

I think we need to give more money to support reforming state unemployment agencies, so they can stop the people who cheat the system.

 

[Cerulean]

I say you're not grasping my point because you're still trying to dumb it down. By quoting me and then going off about classism, elitism, and trickle down economics, NONE of which is actually even tangentially close to what I had been trying to express, aren't you casting aspersions and suggesting I hold illiberal views that I don't actually hold?

I don't appreciate being deliberately misconstrued, being automatically assigned a false label because I don't ascribe to groupthink on any issue.

Trickle down economics is not the solution. I'm saying that I am doubting your belief (feasibility wise) that we can provide these things to everyone. It's true that every other first world nation provide them, but without having done the research, I don't know whether every other first world nation has expenditures and government debt to the extent we do. Each individual European nation, after all, has a fraction of our population, and less disparity geographically compared to our nation.

Expectations are expectations, and reality is reality. I fully agree it's possible in theory to do better, but the political reality may yield different answers.

Your expectations and beliefs are not facts and evidence. I noticed you did not deign to respond to the fact that the US government draws the poverty line at a much lower point than you drew it.

I like to think it’s possible, but we are far from it. Universal healthcare, as an example, with the prevalence of chronic diseases would truly bankrupt that nation in its current state. It would take something radical.

 

[lovedogs]

@voce I am not saying you are espousing trickle down economics, which is why I didn't quote you in my reply. I totally agree that we have to consider realities of the situation, but I think the reality is that we don't pay workers enough. I also think it's unfair to say that people who work certain jobs and don't have "higher aspirations" are problematic. We need folks in those jobs and they deserve a living wage.

I do know that the govt draws the poverty line much lower than I do, and I can't explain that beyond saying that where the govt puts "poverty" is shocking IMHO. I've lived in 5 cities in my life (and now live in a somewhat rural part of southern CA, and the "poverty" line is wwaaaaay higher than the governments' chart).

 

[Sprinkles&Stones]

Honestly, she’s a loser.

*edited - I know its callous, but I think it’s true. She and folk like her though don’t stop me from wanting to support other people

she's a liar lair pants on fire is what I told my hubby. I threatened to call the state and snitch her out for lying, but I can't prove it. whomp whomp. >

 

[voce]

I like to think it’s possible, but we are far from it. Universal healthcare, as an example, with the prevalence of chronic diseases would truly bankrupt that nation in its current state. It would take something radical.

Agreed. I have always supported pragmatic candidates ("Warren has a plan"; not perfect, but shows she had at least thought about the) over the dogmatic, less pragmatic people in politics (who don't think about consequences of their actions).

@lovedogs thank you for explaining. The government is probably figuring in Medicaid and SNAP benefits, I think? Those numbers: definitely not a living wage for anywhere in southern California, lol, at least without assistance from government.

But I think everyone has a different idea of what a living wage should include. Earlier in this thread someone, perhaps @ItsMainelyYou, had talked about median family income vs median home cost. My personal idea of living wage is rent + food + car monthly payments with at least a third left over for saving or spending. Note that I do not personally believe you need to be able to purchase real estate and own a home debt free to be considered having a living wage. The property ownership is part of the American dream, but not part of my definition of a living wage. We can agree to disagree, as to where we draw the line with living wage.

 

[Rockcollector]

No relief for nurses. I could work 48-60 hours per week if I wanted (or was able to)