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What''s the premium on H&A???

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Kent, Oct 29, 2003.

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  1. Kent
    Rough_Rock

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    by Kent » Oct 29, 2003
    Hi Everyone -

    I have a simple question (which means that there''s probably a million different answers). If two diamonds have the same stats (Wt, Color, Clarity, Cut, etc) what''s the premium on a diamond certified H&A?? (assume that the non-H&A diamond is cut extremely well, just not to the H&A specs)

    How much more / less would you expect to pay??
     
    


    


  2. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 29, 2003
    As far as I know there is no cert that states "Hearts and Arrows" it depends on who is marketing the stone and their specific criteria for determining calling it their Cut Above the rest. Implicit in this is that some vendors have stricter criteria than others.

    Apparently this criteria can vary between each vendor. As a consumer you must judge each stone on its own merit, not what it is called by the vendor.

    My final decision was not based in table or depth or crown or pavilion %'s, but on the Brilliance Scope Light Return analysis and IDEAL scope presentation.

    I did use these %'s to narrow down the search though.
     
  3. canadiangrrl
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by canadiangrrl » Oct 29, 2003
    AGS DQD's give an H&A designation. [​IMG]
     
  4. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Oct 29, 2003
    To clarify...CERTS can state Hearts and Arrows, in fact many of them do. However LABS do not grade Hearts and Arrows and if they put it on a cert, its because the owner asked them to or because it was inscribed on the girdle. Anyone can inscribe a girdle and put it on a cert. That does not make the stone H&A.




    What makes the stone true H&A is the actual Hearts and Arrows. Run some archive searches to find information on what exactly entails a true H&A stone. It's about crispness, precision, symmetry...and other things that I'm too lazy to note. You analyze the images and pick out the weaknesses.Most if not all stones will exhibit a pattern of arrows...but they don't necessarily qualify to be H&A.




    NiceIce is a great source of checking out what they would consider to be true H&A. They reject stones for stuff I can't even see in the images! Of course I'm not an expert...just a consumer...so the experts usually know their stuff. But check out their site and see if you can dredge up some stones that they would not consider true H&A and see if you can pick out the nuances.




    Lastly, IdealScope images really don't have much to do with whether or not the stone has H&A designation from what I have read (someone pipe in if I am horribly wrong). The Hearts and Arrows images are what you need to look at. IdealScope tells you light return, it doesn't really let you correctly analyze the arrows. Whether they are black or red I don't think makes much difference as long as they are present, with crispness and symmetry and they are not white (light leakage). Maybe an expert can chime in.




    [​IMG]
     
    


    


  5. canadiangrrl
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by canadiangrrl » Oct 29, 2003
    And just to ensure that the horse is truly dead [​IMG], in saying that AGS DQD's specify an H&A designation, I was responding to Spicoli's assertion that there are no certs that state "Hearts & Arrows." The designation of "true" Hearts & Arrows seems to vary somewhat among vendors. [​IMG]

    This is just my very humble opinion...but here goes. [​IMG] Most well cut RB's exhibit some form of H&A. There seems to be some disagreement as to whether or not the type of superior optical symmetry that will produce a "true" H&A pattern will equal superior visual performance. Having seen AGS0 H&A's and just plain old AGS0's side by each, I could not see a discernible difference in performance or beauty. This doesn't mean there isn't one - I just couldn't see it and therefore couldn't justify the premium.
     
  6. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 29, 2003
    "...../ However LABS do not grade Hearts and Arrows and if they put it on a cert, its because the owner asked them to or because it was inscribed on the girdle. Anyone can inscribe a girdle and put it on a cert. That does not make the stone H&A.../"

    This is what I was getting at.
     
  7. Rhino
    Ideal_Rock
    Trade

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    by Rhino » Oct 29, 2003
    Right on Mara.




    AGS may note H&A on their reports in the "comments" section becuase of a girdle inscription but that does not guarantee that the diamond actually is an H&A. I've personally had the opportunity to inspect quite a few stones that were marked such that did not live up to the claim.




    /idealbb/files/BR1007DVS1HANOTE.jpg/idealbb/files/1007DVS1-4.jpg




    Inspection by a pro familiar with what a true H&A looks like is necessary.




    Rhino
     
  8. barry
    Shiny_Rock

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    by barry » Oct 29, 2003
    H&A patterning is a nice thing to have and does indicate
    a level of diamond-cutting precision but absolutely
    does not correlate with light output,
    which is what you, the consumer should be looking for.

    You can have H&A with maxed light output, or H&A with
    mediocre light performance, or no H&A with superior light output. It's all about facet angle, facet size, and facet positioning. Get as much data and information as you can on any stones you are considering for purchase.

    Barry
    www.superbcert.com
     
  9. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    Ahhhhh...

    Nice to have a a voice of knowledge.......

    So its finally been made clear **Light piercing through a cloud** to me that A stone can have H&A pattern...truely a H&A's stone and not depict the perfect Arrows blacken'd all the way to the edges of the stone.

    This would just be a poor performing H&A.....?

    Right?

    <
     
  10. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    >Oh people reading this should ref "My First Round of Possibilities; this topic regenerated into a discussion on H&A percision as well...you can also see some H&A priced stones to judge.....

    [​IMG]
     
    


    


  11. pqcollectibles
    Ideal_Rock

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    by pqcollectibles » Oct 30, 2003
    Hi Kent![​IMG]

    Regarding your Q about premium, I'll relate my personal diamond buying experience.

    When I was shopping, I seriously considered 2 very similar diamonds before taking the plunge to look at one. Both were H, SI1.

    One diamond was .72 carats in weight. It was a GIA Cert that noted "Exhibits Hearts and Arrows patterns" in the comments. The diamond had the GIA Cert number inscribed on the girdle, but did not have H&A inscribed on it. Although the Vendor talked up the H&A patterns, they did not misrepresent the diamond as being a H&A. The HCA gave this diamond a 2.2 score.

    I bought a .766 carat ACA, H&A, from White Flash. The ACA had a 1.4 HCA rating. I paid about $200 more for the ACA versus the asking price of a very similar nicely cut diamond.

    Hope this helps.[​IMG]
     
  12. niceice
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by niceice » Oct 30, 2003
    We don't pay a premium for round brilliant ideal cut diamonds that exhibit a Hearts & Arrows pattern so why should you? So we suppose our answer is that there isn't a premium for diamonds that exhibit a Hearts & Arrows pattern, however we took this position with our suppliers based on the strength of our annual purchase volume by essentially saying that we wouldn't pay a premium and they had to comply if they wanted to keep us as a customer... We pass the savings on to our clients.

    To clarify our position that there is not a premium, we want to be sure that you understand that we're talking about diamonds cut to equal proportions and with similar clarity characteristics. In other words, a diamond cut to a precise combination of angles and degrees and not just "another ideal" because ideal cut diamonds with proportions near the edge of the ideal spectrum cost less than those cut in the center of the range which is commonly referred to as "Super Ideal"... Likewise, a VS-2 with a feather along the edge of the diamond tends to cost less than a VS-2 where the clarity grade is based upon small translucent diamond crystals located around the perimeter of the crown facets and so on...

    As stated previously in this thread, just because "H&A" is mentioned under the "comments" section of a lab report as reference to an inscription does not mean that the diamond is "Hearts & Arrows" merely that the lab is reporting the inscription as an identifying characteristic that existed at the time the diamond was graded...
     
  13. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    So I think what is being said here is:
    1) There is no specific cert for Hearts and Arrows. If it is indicated on the cert it is in memo form only and really does not mean squat.
    2) In regards to H&A premium, you are not paying more for the title H&A, what you are paying more for is Light return, which is maximized most of the time by "Super Ideal" proportions...(Which give you the little black arrows shooting out to the edges of the diamond)[​IMG]
     
  14. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Oct 30, 2003
    you are not paying more for light return IMO...but rather you usually pay more for a BRAND or just plain ole' markup. I have seen unbranded H&A's that have better light return than some branded stones. They don't cost more. It has to do with branding, and pricing. A vendor may just decide to charge more! There's no rhyme or reason--which is why the consumer needs to shop smart.
     
  15. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    Wow its amazing how these two topics are in tangent. I will past a comment that I made on another thread "Here are the first round.."

    Someone wrote:
    ".......\From a marketing perspective, that statement makes little sense. The value of a branded stone hinges somewhat on the integrity of the brand. But a stone won't lose its inherent value to the consumer if the brand loses its integrity....../"

    It makes very much sense. You have to consider that there was an initial investment in the piece. This investment included a premium based on the inherent goodwill associated with the brand (In addition to the intrinsic value of the piece itself). Combine these two amounts and you get total cash outlay.

    This Goodwill, if it maintains intact or continues to positively accrue will positively effect the value of a stone branded by that particular brand. If in the future the goodwill becomes impaired for whatever reason than your Branded stone looses a portion of its initial invested value.

    Marketing is for wienies...talk to your accountant first.
    [​IMG]

    Sorry to correct you.

    Now the Kool-Aid comment was actually pretty funny; I recommend that you go to the Thread intitled "H&A premium" posted recently and review what is important. It’s not H&A but rather light return. Perhaps this is what you are referring to here.... Excellent light return in a stone that exhibits the H&A patter (More likely than not these two are congruent) equal an AWSOME stone! Like theone I got from Barry at Superbcerts. (Barry you better keep up the good work man!)
     
    


    


  16. ChooChoo
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by ChooChoo » Oct 30, 2003
    So how DO you find unbranded diamonds that have H&A? When you search for H&A through Pricescope, do you get branded, unbranded or both?
     
  17. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    I am curious to hear a experienced response. My attempts to locate an Unbranded H&A AND save enough money to make it worth the risk were futile. Add to this the additional benefits of branding and my deceision was made.

    In a perfect market everyone would have brilliant scopes, digital 10x pics and sarins on all stones and the process would be more feasible.

    If you consider un-branded to mean a Super Ideal from a vendor here, my experience (Just my own personal experience) was the price difference was immaterial from a branded.

    Also note that quality will differ between brands much like Mercedes and Ford.
     
  18. canadiangrrl
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by canadiangrrl » Oct 30, 2003
    Hi Choo Choo,

    There are lots of lovely un-branded H&A diamonds to be found online. Check out www.goodoldgold and www.niceice.com. [​IMG]
     
  19. spicolicpa
    Shiny_Rock

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    by spicolicpa » Oct 30, 2003
    True and I leave it to the consumer to determine if there is a material price difference between them and a similiar (Must evaluate each stone on its own merits) stone of branded criteria.

    All aspects must be evaluated and some feel branding is "useless" some feel otherwise....

    Just know that there are varing opinions.
     
  20. Mara
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Mara » Oct 30, 2003
    varying.




    [​IMG]
     
  21. ccuheartnurse
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by ccuheartnurse » Oct 30, 2003
    My Stone is an un-branded H&A, 1.552, SI-1, G, totally eyeclean & very white with no visible yellow in the body. I didnt mind my fiance paying a bit of a premium for a H&A stone, but not the hugely inflated costs of a Branded stone. My stone had all the right numbers, performed well with the BScope, zoomed up pics looked great & and came with my vendors assurence that my stone would kick some major butt. It did, & I'm very pleased & impressed that ist simply has the AGS cert # engraved on it & not Christian Dior. I say it over & over again, there are quite a few stones out there with great #'s & there are some great vendors out there with the latest gadgets to help you at least figure out what you want. I know for a fact that in May/June 2002, Branded stones such as Superbcert were much more expensive, & yet today, they have dropped their pricing down a bit.

    Be a savvy shopper, & inform youself with knowledge. You'll make the right choice. :)
     
  22. ChooChoo
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by ChooChoo » Oct 30, 2003
    sounds great, so how did you find it?
     
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