What's going on with GOG?

[Dancing Fire]

only a few in-house stones on their site since Jon left about a yr ago. They used to stock quite a few big carat stones.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

My theory since I have been watching for quite awhile is that since diamond prices have gone down since 2011-2012, they are trying to prevent people from upgrading since it wouldn't be financially advantageous for them. So basically, the upgrade policy is meaningless for those who bought 2 ct stones or higher, as I can tell you from personal experience.

Jonathan was the biggest asset GOG had as he was the face of GOG to the world, and there's no one more passionate about well cut diamonds than he is. Apparently his vision and theirs weren't the same. Big mistake on their part.

 

[tyty333]

I tried checking them yesterday for an over 2 carat stone and basically only one not so great looking stone popped up.
I feel bad for people trying to upgrade through them.

 

[BlingDreams]

My theory since I have been watching for quite awhile is that since diamond prices have gone down since 2011-2012, they are trying to prevent people from upgrading since it wouldn't be financially advantageous for them. So basically, the upgrade policy is meaningless for those who bought 2 ct stones or higher, as I can tell you from personal experience.

Jonathan was the biggest asset GOG had as he was the face of GOG to the world, and there's no one more passionate about well cut diamonds than he is. Apparently his vision and theirs weren't the same. Big mistake on their part.

If this is indeed the case, how horrible of them. To promise a customer a trade-in opportunity and then fail to stock applicable stones is a form of deception. Those are the kind of shenanigans that ruin reputations and close businesses.

 

[whitewave]

Has anyone called and asked them why?

 

[Dancing Fire]

My theory since I have been watching for quite awhile is that since diamond prices have gone down since 2011-2012, they are trying to prevent people from upgrading since it wouldn't be financially advantageous for them. So basically, the upgrade policy is meaningless for those who bought 2 ct stones or higher, as I can tell you from personal experience.

Yup, I'd agree "meaningless" if you are thinking about upgrading a 2ct stone. DS.. Is your avatar from GOG? are you thinking about an upgrade?

 

[ecf8503]

I'm in the same boat. I've got 2 AV stones through them, and the opportunities for trade-up are slim at best. Jonathan isn't accepting trade-in's right now, and his AVInc and GOG are 2 separate companies now anyway. GOG has changed their buy-back policy I noticed - used to be 75% lifetime, now it's only 1 year. Seems like GOG and AVInc have very different business models.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Yup, I'd agree "meaningless" if you are thinking about upgrading a 2ct stone. DS.. Is your avatar from GOG? are you thinking about an upgrade?

Yes, I bought it from Jon when he was at GOG. There was a time I thought it was too big and I also wanted H color. It took some time for me to adjust to the size and the color because I was used to a 1.6 G VS! But over time I have realized that it is an exceptional stone and I would likely be very sorry if I traded it for anything else. It's special to me because Yoram cut it, and he cut very few AVRs. But at the time I was concerned about it, a 2 ct H VS1 (upgrade in color only) would have been my goal. That never happened even before Jon left, because GOG wouldn't order hardly any new AV stones over 2 cts, period. The other very disappointing thing is that someone posted one of their Ascendancy stones here for someone looking for a diamond in the last couple of weeks, and that diamond wasn't even close to hearts and arrows. So I no longer recommend GOG.

 

[Blingalingaling]

GOG is owned by Jon's mother and always has been. Jon is not "working there", but his whole family is and he is still very much a member of that family. He isn't "gone". Just as a piece of information, FWIW.

 

[Dancing Fire]

The other very disappointing thing is that someone posted one of their Ascendancy stones here for someone looking for a diamond in the last couple of weeks, and that diamond wasn't even close to hearts and arrows. So I no longer recommend GOG.

Yup, some of their stones aren't even close of being H&A. One of the reason I sold my Octavia was that I knew I will not be able to upgrade to another Octavia, so I thought maybe I can trade in my Octavia for a 2.5ct H&A stone, but they no longer stock any 2+ct MRB stones.

 

[BlingDreams]

@Rhino - Could you shed any light on this for us? Or perhaps another member of your family still involved with GOG could join PS and reply?

 

[Dancing Fire]

GOG is owned by Jon's mother and always has been. Jon is not "working there", but his whole family is and he is still very much a member of that family. He isn't "gone". Just as a piece of information, FWIW.

Yes he is along with their upgrade policy.

 

[Blingalingaling]

So, I'm just curious, to trade up there, does it have to be a stone they have in stock or could they bring in stones with the criteria you're looking for and do a trade-up? Would they have a stone cut to your specifications for a trade? Did they do that in the past or was it only from their stock situation?

 

[HDer]

https://www.pricescope.com/files/diamond-prices-per-carat.jpg?v2

2-3 carat stones are near decade price highs, and even the category that has lost the most (0.5-1 carat) has only dropped 20% or so, so I wouldn't assume that's the reason they aren't stocking larger stones.

A more plausible explanation, in my opinion, is that outside of a handful of Pricescopers, GOG is still mainly a B&M store, and they're not seeing a lot of interest in 2+ carat stones from their B&M customers.

 

[Matt B]

Good Old Gold will be responding regarding their inventory in due time. We owe that to our customers and although we understandably will be seen in a negative light by some, in the meantime we ask our customers to be open minded until we feel it is the proper time to address this issue (as well as a few others) with the general public. Good Old Gold has been placed in a sensitive position because there are many assumptions and theories going around that Good Old Gold does not agree with. Once the time is right, we believe most people will understand why we are not making any statements at the current moment.

We have honored our policies since day one and although changes to our policies have been made over time (as many vendors do), we have always honored the original policy that was made to that customer at their time of thier purchase.

Good Old Good was unaware that one of their Ascendancy diamonds was being questioned on Pricescope. This is concerning to us and we will definitely address this issue immediately. Can you please include the link to that thread so we can look deeper into it? Thank you.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

https://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond...-I-AGS-G-SI1-diamond-stock-16652-cert-2926606

Not even close to having hearts that qualify as H&A.

There are others, as well. You'd have to search to find the thread where the stone was recommended. It was oddly recommended out of the blue by someone who rarely posts here.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

So, I'm just curious, to trade up there, does it have to be a stone they have in stock or could they bring in stones with the criteria you're looking for and do a trade-up? Would they have a stone cut to your specifications for a trade? Did they do that in the past or was it only from their stock situation?

In stock only. Otherwise there wouldn't be a problem.

I want to make clear that I have no problem with vendors changing policies and I trust that GOG is honoring the policies in place at the time of purchase. The only issue is that the trade-up policy is sometimes impossible to use because there is nothing to trade up to.

 

[sledge]

I haven't dealt with GoG personally but heard good reviews of yesteryear. Its concerning to hear of growing issues. Especially since there has been 1 or 2 people recently doing purchases through them.

It is good @Matt B is being responsive and addressing issues. It sounds like they want to try and treat people the right way despite what hardship they are facing.

Unfortunately when people aren't allowed to say much it is usually for legal or security clearance reasons. Both have their own weight to bear and rarely good.

Best of luck to GoG and their customers.

 

[Matt B]

Regarding the Ascendancy diamond in question, we have reviewed the diamond that we have at our location and would like to share our thoughts.

Below is a link to Good Old Good's standards for what qualifies a diamond to be a Hearts and Arrows:
https://www.goodoldgold.com/ascendancy-hearts-arrows



To us, this particular diamond meets all of the standards as advertised and is supported by technology. The primary specification in question is the Hearts image which is explained in the diamond's 4th requirement as quoted below:

4. "The diamond must exhibit a uniform and even Hearts pattern on the pavilion demonstrated with photographic evidence".

I highlighted the words "to us" because each company has their own slight variances on what qualifies a diamond as a Hearts and Arrows. There is no concrete universal definition or standard for this. It comes down each individual companies personal standards. There are many definitions in the diamond industry that vary from company to company. One example is the word "Ideal". To us, the word "Ideal" has a high level of standard that differs from many other companies. Many companies label most GIA 3X diamonds as Ideal. We do not use those same standards when labeling our diamonds as "Ideal". No company is right or wrong. It's each companies own personal opinion and from there the public can determine if they would like to give them their business or not.

We believe that the diamond in question does exhibit a uniform and even Hearts Pattern. Being that these diamonds are cut using human assistance, there will always be the slightest degree of variances. However, we do feel that the photographic evidence could have been illustrated better for this diamond. For instance, we see light reflections in the cleft of the Hearts that make the Hearts look unsymmetrical. We believe that this gave the diamond an undesirable illusion that it was more unsymmetrical than it truly is. We used a different H&A scope on the same diamond and below is a photo of the side by side comparison:


The diamond's "Hearts" look more uniformed in the updated photo (on the right) and we hope the diamond now looks more in line to how we advertise our H&A standards. Since human involvement is part of cutting a diamond, no diamond will be 100% perfect as the primary pavilion angels of this exact diamond are demonstrated below and vary one tenth of a degree (41.6 - 41.7):



To us, it's still close enough to label the diamond as Hearts and Arrows and once again, this is our own opinion.

Some companies may disqualify diamonds with clefts in the center of their Hearts and Arrows diamonds (as in the example of the diamond in question) . For years we have chosen to offer both types (cleft and no cleft depending on the customers personal preference) but either way, we still require the diamond to be "uniformed with an even Hearts pattern" (accepting the slightest degree of human error). We have sold many of both types and the customers were shown the photography before their purchase was made.

We show every customer the photographs on each diamonds web page and leave it up to them to decide if our opinion is in-line with their standards for their diamond purchase. We like to let the photo's speak for themselves compared to trying to verbally convince customers that the diamond is cut well. Unfortunately, in this case the photo (and perhaps a few others on our website using the same equipment) was misleading. The photo analysis made it look worse than it actually is so we are glad that this was brought to our attention. We are open to constrictive criticism and we will work on trying to fix any other diamonds that our technologies have misrepresented.

Thank you again for bringing this to our attention.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

That's fine, Matt. It is certainly your choice to label your stones however you wish. But we'd never recommend those stones to someone looking for a superideal. Yes, they may be ideal cut and we can also find stones of that quality on James Allen, Blue Nile, etc. So your Acendancy category is more like Whiteflash Expert Selection because of your inclusion of stones that this forum would not consider true hearts and arrows, since several of the stones have significant clefts in the hearts. That doesn't mean they aren't nice stones, they just aren't top tier H&A.

 

[Matt B]

Thanks for the followup diamondseeker2006. Our Ascendancy diamonds have very specific table percentages, crown angels, pavilion angles, depth percentages, opinionated symmetry standards, and perhaps a few other important qualifications that we believe would separate them from the selection you are comparing them to. We believe that our "Platinum" diamonds might be more in line with the selection you are comparing our Ascendancy diamonds to. But that's just our personal opinion. You are entitled to yours as well and although we do not always agree on everything, your opinion is highly respected by us.

Also keep in mind that most of our Ascendancy diamonds do not have those clefts in the Heart's (for others who are reading this thread). If it's important to you, we encourage our customers to look at the photo's before they make their purchase. If a photo is in question, we're only a phone call away and happy to straighten the issue because there indeed might be times where rare human error might occur.

 

[mrs-b]

If this is indeed the case, how horrible of them. To promise a customer a trade-in opportunity and then fail to stock applicable stones is a form of deception. Those are the kind of shenanigans that ruin reputations and close businesses.

Yes, they are - if that's what was happening. And yes - it would be horrible - if that's what was happening. As I have often said on these boards after someone expresses a strong opinion without knowing the full story - find out all the details first. When a good company - a company that's been good for years and years - acts in an uncharacteristic manner, you can normally assume there's more to it than meets the eye.

The buy back policy is still being honored in the form it was made to their buyers. Reducing their buy back to 1 year is hardly unusual; the one year limit is common to most of the vendors on these boards.

As for upgrades, has anyone actually spoken to the powers that be at GOG? I think the departure of Jon has unsettled the running of the company in the medium term, but I think we need to wait and see what their intentions are before we start slamming a company that has always been so excellent in its treatment of its customers.

If, on the other hand, you feel Jon was the heart and soul of GOG, all the more reason to switch your business to AVInc. Because as anyone who's done it will tell you, there's few things in life more fun than buying a diamond from @Rhino!

And if you're one of the people unable to upgrade immediately, there's not much to do except wait and see how this plays out. I spent 2 hours talking to Jon at the JCK, then had dinner with him that evening, and I believe all will even out in the end. I think continual dialogue with the company would help, tho; if they knew there was a demand, it could only help.

ETA On a different note - what visible difference does a cleft in the hearts make? Can someone explain that pls in terms of light return? I've never known, and would like to, @Matt B.

 

[mrs-b]

I also wanted to come back and add - Rhino has no role whatsoever at GOG as of this point and it would be hugely unethical for him to comment on their business practices. It would be equally unfair to ascribe GOG's business practices to him in any way.

 

[BlingDreams]

Yes, they are - if that's what was happening. And yes - it would be horrible - if that's what was happening. As I have often said on these boards after someone expresses a strong opinion without knowing the full story - find out all the details first.

Agreed, and is why I said “if” and also asked Jon to either shed light or ask a family member to do so. I don’t like heresay and would rather hear it from the horses mouth.

 

[flyingpig]

ETA On a different note - what visible difference does a cleft in the hearts make? Can someone explain that pls in terms of light return? I've never known, and would like to, @Matt B.

https://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond...-I-AGS-G-SI1-diamond-stock-16652-cert-2926606

In this case, the cleft is from the LGH of 81.6%. This is higher than some other superideal brands allow, for an example, WF ACA which allows upto 80%. The effect of LGH higher than 80% is the clefts and skinny arrows. In term of light return characteristics, it is thought to have more splintery appearance.

I must say not all clefts are from high LGH. Some are just poorly cut.

It is an interesting topic whether or not one should call a diamond with LGH higher than 80% a H&A. In GOG's defense, WF used to allow diamonds with significant crown only painting in their ACA brand; they don't anymore. GOG never allowed that in their Ascendancy. So, in that regard, GOG has been more strict, but less strict when it comes to LGH. I hear both DS2006 and Matt. If someone calls this stone a super ideal cut, I will accept that. But it is NOT H&A in my book.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Matt
the xsample you gave above are nowhere close to this stone that I purchased from GOG in 2005. Notice the tightness of all the specs on this 3.34ct stone? GOG's criterias for a well cut stone had changed a lot since then.

 

[rockysalamander]

Yes, they are - if that's what was happening. And yes - it would be horrible - if that's what was happening. As I have often said on these boards after someone expresses a strong opinion without knowing the full story - find out all the details first. When a good company - a company that's been good for years and years - acts in an uncharacteristic manner, you can normally assume there's more to it than meets the eye.

The buy back policy is still being honored in the form it was made to their buyers. Reducing their buy back to 1 year is hardly unusual; the one year limit is common to most of the vendors on these boards.

As for upgrades, has anyone actually spoken to the powers that be at GOG? I think the departure of Jon has unsettled the running of the company in the medium term, but I think we need to wait and see what their intentions are before we start slamming a company that has always been so excellent in its treatment of its customers.

If, on the other hand, you feel Jon was the heart and soul of GOG, all the more reason to switch your business to AVInc. Because as anyone who's done it will tell you, there's few things in life more fun than buying a diamond from @Rhino!

And if you're one of the people unable to upgrade immediately, there's not much to do except wait and see how this plays out. I spent 2 hours talking to Jon at the JCK, then had dinner with him that evening, and I believe all will even out in the end. I think continual dialogue with the company would help, tho; if they knew there was a demand, it could only help.

ETA On a different note - what visible difference does a cleft in the hearts make? Can someone explain that pls in terms of light return? I've never known, and would like to, @Matt B.

This. I'm glad you wrote this. It's a much more elegant than what I was writing. I think we just need to give GOG time. Change is hard for any company, but especially so for family run companies.

 

[PintoBean]

Matt
the xsample you gave above are nowhere close to this stone that I purchased from GOG in 2005. Notice the tightness of all the specs on this 3.34ct stone? GOG's criterias for a well cut stone had changed a lot since then.

Cuz they're betting that 13 years after you purchase that stone your eye muscles will be less tight as well.

 

[Johnbt]

Businesses change and family businesses can really change in unexpected and sudden ways, especially if they have one owner with complete control. In my experience, things get explained when the dust has settled.

"In this case, the cleft is from the LGH of 81.6%."

Thank you for the info on the clefts, something I'd only touched on in my previous reading. I'm a beginner still learning about the effects of rounding. So, sitting here with my second cup of morning coffee, I looked at the GIA FACETWARE Cut Estimator report.

The LGH average is 81.6%, with the minimum at 80.62% and the maximum at 82.19%. Then in the column for GIA CUT ROUNDED, they round it off to 80%.

Hmmm, obviously they never took any math or physics classes. 81.6 rounds up to 82. Even if you round 80.62 up to 81 and round 82.19 down to 82 and then average the 81 and 82 up you end up with 81.5. I can't figure out a reasonable way to take a series of numbers - the lowest being 80.62 - and ending up with a final number of 80. (I know it's their system and the answer is the answer because they say so.)

No wonder folks come to this forum for advice.

And it's no wonder I paid the additional toll for the luxury of picking from WF's selection of extremely nice stones; and after 3 months ours still draws comments every single day. The best ones are from the former coworkers who still want to know if we're adopting. She still works there. No, I'm 67. Not a chance.

John

__________________

edited to add an old joke combining the two subjects.

A man went to a small business to interview for the job of bookkeeper/accountant. He was interviewed by the owner who only had one question, "How much is 1 + 1?"

The man immediately responded, "How much do you want it to be?"

"You're hired !!!!"

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I also wanted to come back and add - Rhino has no role whatsoever at GOG as of this point and it would be hugely unethical for him to comment on their business practices. It would be equally unfair to ascribe GOG's business practices to him in any way.

Exactly! I am extremely sure we will only see him publicly comment on his products and company, August Vintage Inc., which he formed to sell the diamonds he invented and wanted to market more widely than he was allowed to in his former position. This was his dream, and I, as a loyal customer of Jon's for 12 years, will certainly support him in every way I can! I am very loyal to companies with the highest quality products and great customer service.