What would you do?

[missy]

We live in a doorman building and I like all the doormen though some are more conscientious and hard working than others.
We have been having an ongoing problem with being notified of package deliveries in a timely fashion and honestly it is annoying at best and costs us money and time in worst case scenarios.

The doormen have been repeatedly told by the managing agents and the super (who is directly in charge of them) and yet this continues to happen. They improve for a short while and then back to not notifying us and it is up to us to ask if we have packages. And sometimes things get ruined as in today for example. I was expecting a perishable vegetable delivery that needed refrigeration ASAP and it said exactly that on the package. Posting pic. Pretty obvious.

I do track and monitor most packages I am expecting because I know the doormen can be lazy/forgetful in this area but sometimes I am busy and have a lot going on and it is the job of our doormen to notify us. We were home when this was delivered yesterday late morning. I have the exact time it was delivered and we were home. No doorman notified us. This morning I noticed something else had been delivered last night (again at a time we were home) so I sent my dh down this morning to get it and that's when we also got the other package that needed ASAP refrigeration.

It is holiday time and my dh and I give cash to all the doormen and maintenance guys and the superintendent . Should I penalize those few doormen who are usually to blame for the non notification? We lost $100 in perishable veggies this one time and while it is usually not as dramatic a loss it is still not acceptable IMO. We pay a lot to live here (monthly co-op maintenance for paying doormen, maintenance men, running the building etc) and the doormen get generous bonuses every year too in addition to us as individual shareholders giving them an extra gift of cash. For example they get either 2 weeks or 1 month extra in bonus every holiday and then shareholders can give on their own too as we do even though that bonus money is coming from us as well since we pay their salaries.

So I am just wondering given the situation what you would do. Would you give them an individual cash gift as we usually do or would you penalize those few doormen who keep messing up. I lost $100 in vegetables and I am leaning towards not giving this specific doorman his cash gift this year. The big problem for me here is I like this specific doorman. He is very polite and I hate not giving him a gift but I am very frustrated with him. First I am going to talk with him when he is next on duty to see what happened.

And there is another doorman who is negligent as well and I am thinking of skipping his gift too. I am angry right now and may change my mind and my dh is usually super generous but he is mad too this time as they have been told repeatedly they must notify shareholders. Again we were home so we know they did not attempt notifying us. Many other shareholders have been complaining and this is why each doorman has been told again and again about this. It is not a one time occurrence.

Interested in what you would do. Thanks.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Missy, can the management company write up a formal notification and give it to the doormen, requiring that they read and return a signed acknowledgement, about the proper procedures? Telling someone to do something is one thing but getting a signed acknowledgement back puts people on a much higher notice that they are expected to comply and that might be the kick in the pants they need to realize this is a serious matter.

 

[Queenie60]

Hi Missy: I do not feel that you should be over the top generous however, give them a small token - maybe a small box of chocolates or a small box of cookies? This way you feel that you acknowledged them but didn't reward them for poor service.

 

[CJ2008]

Right...

First and foremost, procedures need to change...

And the doormen need to really understand that this is not just a matter of wanting to know when packages arrive - that sometimes packages are time sensitive and so therefore all packages are important.

Do the doormen have a list of people's cell phones? Because it could be as simple as requiring an immediate text notification.

As far as the tip...I could see your dilemma. I find myself feeling exactly as you do - would be really hard and I would resent to give a tip when I am angry with someone.

I think I would give, but I would give less. So the ones that are diligent get x amount, the ones that are not would get less (maybe half?). That way you're still recognizing all the OTHER things they do right but not as much as the ones that do everything right.

And I'd have a conversation with the doormen - I would explain what happened with the veggies - they need to really connect that when they don't notify properly, it can cause problems/damages.

 

[JaneSmith]

You might get even crappier service if you choose to send a message via holiday giving. Use another way.

 

[missy]

Missy, can the management company write up a formal notification and give it to the doormen, requiring that they read and return a signed acknowledgement, about the proper procedures? Telling someone to do something is one thing but getting a signed acknowledgement back puts people on a much higher notice that they are expected to comply and that might be the kick in the pants they need to realize this is a serious matter.

Thanks Dee Jay. Great suggestion and it was already done many months ago. In fact my dh wrote up their list of job requirements in addition to other issues and they all signed it. For all the good that did LOL.

Queenie, thanks. Something to consider for sure.

CJ, great suggestion. I plan on speaking with Michael specifically but will have to wait for the weekend as he is on daytime weekends as well as late night weekdays and I am not going to stay up so late so it will have to wait till the weekend. I like your idea of texting our package has arrived. I believe we are looking into that because we have a new camera security system here that has that capability too. My dh knows more about that as he is on the board and we just got the new system. So maybe that will be something for the future.

I forgot the most aggravating part of this. My order cannot be reproduced for a long while as it is out of stock and has to be grown specially so it is not just the money and time but I actually cannot just reorder and replace it.

Jane, I appreciate your thoughts but I won't live like that- in fear of what they might do i.e. crappier service if I don't give them their gift. We do have rules and regulations and if they cannot follow them and do their job properly there are sanctions that will be taken so I don't think they will get away with purposefully giving worse service. And anyway, IMO, A gift is just that... a gift. If I want and decide to give it to them I will but I won't let the worry they will do a worse job decide that for me.

In fact if I felt that way (that they would seek revenge and do a worse job) I certainly would not even consider giving them their usual cash gift. In fact because of this issue we are now changing policy for next year. Their automatic bonus from the managing agent (that is from the shareholders) will be no more and now the staff will have to do their job properly to deserve their yearly bonus and we will keep stricter records. We will wait till next year before implementing so they have fair warning that their bonus won't be automatic anymore. That way it is fair and reasonable. Do your job right and you will enjoy your extra bonus and everyone will be happy.

Having said that I am not sold on not giving them something because I like them and have been living here since 1995 though not all the doormen are original to that time. However many of them are and I do like them and really don't want to not give them their cash gift. But yanno sometimes there's a straw that breaks that camel's back and this just might be it. I have to think about it more.

Thanks for everyone's input. I appreciate it.

 

[CJ2008]

CJ, great suggestion. I plan on speaking with Michael specifically but will have to wait for the weekend as he is on daytime weekends as well as late night weekdays and I am not going to stay up so late so it will have to wait till the weekend. I like your idea of texting our package has arrived. I believe we are looking into that because we have a new camera security system here that has that capability too. My dh knows more about that as he is on the board and we just got the new system. So maybe that will be something for the future.

I forgot the most aggravating part of this. My order cannot be reproduced for a long while as it is out of stock and has to be grown specially so it is not just the money and time but I actually cannot just reorder and replace it.

That really stinks about the veggies Missy. :/

There could be all sorts of reasons why they don't notify immediately (aside from plain and simple just being lazy or not caring) - not sure how busy the building is or what other tasks they have, but maybe they get distracted, busy with something else, etc. - not that it's an excuse, because it's not - but the easiest you can make it on them to do, the better chance it has of actually happening. So a cell phone reserved just for that use and left at the desk for them to use - with all of the residents' # programmed into it so they don't have to look it up in a paper list first - may work well.

Hope you'll update us I'll be curious to see how it gets resolved.

 

[monarch64]

I am dying to know what these vegetables were!

I really don't know what I would do in your situation, Missy. What seems right is not rewarding a job that wasn't done. But it's a holiday bonus and there is so much pressure to be nice.

 

[telephone89]

Is there anyone higher that you can go to? Besides the super? I'd be going to him/her honestly. They should even be reimbursing you for the lost product that their negligent employees ruined! Obviously the super isn't keeping them on their toes, so I'd go higher up.

In your immediate case, I would not tip poor service. I might not make a big show of rewarding the 'good' ones, or I'd give the 'bad' ones less if you really felt bad.

 

[missy]

I am dying to know what these vegetables were!

I really don't know what I would do in your situation, Missy. What seems right is not rewarding a job that wasn't done. But it's a holiday bonus and there is so much pressure to be nice.

Hi Monnie, thanks for weighing in. It's funny. I don't feel pressure to be nice so much as I just want to be nice. I usually enjoy being nice and it puts me in a happy mood (corny as that sounds) because I like them but I am really that annoyed to be considering not giving them their holiday cash. Only because this has happened time and time again despite written instructions on their exact job duties that all the doormen signed as well as being specifically told about notifying shareholders when their packages arrive. So now I am at the point where being nice feels more like I am being a shmuc* if you kwim and *that* feels not so great.

Just to be clear though they are all getting their official holiday bonuses from the managing agent (that comes from all of us as shareholders) that equals 2-4 weeks pay so they are getting their main cash for their holidays. Believe me if I don't give them their holiday cash they will not be hurting for money. It's more of me making a statement so to speak.


CJ, I will update you but not sure there will be anything that interesting to update. Sundays are just not that busy re deliveries so no Michael was not overwhelmed. Now he could have been on break and I asked my dh to please ask the super about that specific concern of mine. Because I am hoping he was on break and that it was someone else at fault for not notifying me. However my dh doesn't agree and still thinks it was the doorman on duty who should notify when he gets back from break. Be that as it may I want to know who was ON duty when my packages arrived. We are talking about 2 different packages. First one perishable veggies and second one just a dress that arrived that evening. That I was also not notified about. I sure hope Michael was not on duty for both of those packages but it is possible. And if that is the case well then I would be disappointed in Michael for sure.

 

[monarch64]

Well, if doing the "nice" thing makes you feel not great, then the answer is to NOT do the "nice" thing. I think making a statement is in order here, you're right.

Now I am still trying to guess what these mystery veggies were. You don't have to tell me; I am keeping myself entertained dreaming up packages of exotic mushrooms. etc.

 

[Tekate]

another view from the NYTimes.. I don't know what city you are in, but on the flip side, it's holiday time and these people are asked to do tons of stuff, at least when I lived in a highrise in NYC they did.. been a while fore sure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/realestate/the-doormans-dilemma-what-to-do-with-all-those-packages.html

 

[missy]

Is there anyone higher that you can go to? Besides the super? I'd be going to him/her honestly. They should even be reimbursing you for the lost product that their negligent employees ruined! Obviously the super isn't keeping them on their toes, so I'd go higher up.

In your immediate case, I would not tip poor service. I might not make a big show of rewarding the 'good' ones, or I'd give the 'bad' ones less if you really felt bad.

Hi telephone, you are totally right. It is the super who is responsible to make sure the staff is doing their jobs. He is not running a tight enough ship. But I don't know the details. I am probably going to get reimbursed probably but it is mainly that I cannot just reorder that is aggravating so I cannot just get back to where I want to be if that makes sense. Also when I do get reimbursed it is really coming from the shareholders which includes us because that is just how a co-op works. Year ago we got sued by 2 shareholders (married) because the doormen lost books they were holding for their friends for weeks and weeks. Their friends just never came by to pick up the books and then months later the books were gone and no one knew what happened so the shareholders whose books it was sued the shareholders (because they couldn't sue the doormen) and won. That was really not the doorman's responsibility but we lost the suit and it came out of the shareholder's reserve fund. That's just how it works.

Higher up than the super is the managing agent who is under the shareholders control so to speak which is basically ruled by the co-op board. My dh is on the board and I was on the board for over 12 years but left so he could take over as I was tired LOL. I have to say when I was on the board these things seemed to happen less. LOL.

 

[missy]

another view from the NYTimes.. I don't know what city you are in, but on the flip side, it's holiday time and these people are asked to do tons of stuff, at least when I lived in a highrise in NYC they did.. been a while fore sure.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/realestate/the-doormans-dilemma-what-to-do-with-all-those-packages.html

Hi Kate, thanks for the link. The thing is this has been an ongoing problem. Not a new issue because of volume etc. but something we have been dealing with for too long. Oh and we pick up our packages from the doormen downstairs. We don't have them come up to give it to us. Though that is great service. No I am just happy if I get notified my package is there and then I would go and get it. Nothing fancy.

 

[momhappy]

This is a tough one. I consider Holiday tipping a "bonus" for jobs well done, so if someone is deliberately not doing a good job, I'm not going to tip just because it's the Holidays. I would probably tip those doing a good job and skip those who weren't (or at least tip much less).

 

[VRBeauty]

I'm not sure what I'd do about the tipping issue - but one thing I am sure of is that if I were going to reduce anybody's tips, the super would be on the top of my list. It's his job to make sure things go smoothly. If they're not, his bonus would be the first one on my chopping block. And I'm speaking as a former manager. (That assumes, of course, that he has authority commensurate with his responsibility.)

I'm glad your board has changed its bonus procedures to incorporate more accountability, and that there will be some documentation of issues going forward. Hopefully that will help.

 

[CJ2008]

I'm not sure what I'd do about the tipping issue - but one thing I am sure of is that if I were going to reduce anybody's tips, the super would be on the top of my list. It's his job to make sure things go smoothly. If they're not, his bonus would be the first one on my chopping block. And I'm speaking as a former manager. (That assumes, of course, that he has authority commensurate with his responsibility.)

Yes - I was just going to say something along these lines - if the super is managing these people then he needs to be clear that when they don't perform it affects his bonus/tip, etc. Because if some of the employees/doormen are not performing part of his job is to deal with that.

 

[azstonie]

I'm with VR on this, the doormen do/dont do according to the priorities of *their* boss. I would not bonus the super or the doormen who have failed in this important job responsibility. Then we look like approval-seeking codependent chumps

Here is what I would do: Letter to Mr. Superintendent---Dear Slack Superintendent, this is the first Christmas that I have not presented a bonus to you and I'm going to be frank about this. You and your staff have repeatedly failed to notify me of packages and deliveries. This has cost me money more than once and I've brought this to your attention, without results. In fact, I just received a clearly marked package of perishable supplements that I have to wait 30-60 days to have mailed out to me. I'm frustrated with this which is not putting me in that holiday mood of flinging cash at people who don't care to do their jobs at a minimal level of achievement.

 

[JaneSmith]

I personally dislike tipping because it is non-existent in my home culture. This situation feels like you are tipping for crap service, and that doesn't sit right with me, or you. And it's not just 'crap service', they are in dereliction of duty.
I'm glad the situation you're in does not make you think you will receive worse service because of not giving the holiday gift. Apartment living, especially when the building has services, can be an excercise in an uneasy truce between all participants, and I did not know if withholding the gift would escalate into something unpleasant.
I think you will come up with a fair and satisfying solution, you are a smart lady.

I too am curious about the veggies, I fear I may be missing out on something delicious!

 

[missy]

Haha Monnie and Jane, you are not missing out on anything delicious I promise you LOL. They are cultured special no salt added vegetables that contain lots of live probiotics basically but they were out in room temperature for too long and are inedible. They get incredibly sour and gross if not refrigerated within a narrow time frame.

They were shipped without ice but usually the company I order these from ships with ice. However that business is temporarily closed and no clue when they are re-opening due to losing their lease rather unexpectedly so I was forced to order from a new company that does not ship with ice. And these were the last 3 jars of no salt added they have for at least a few weeks as they are out of stock of no salt. You would not believe how impossible it is to find no salt added or truly low sodium products and these were one of the only companies around I could locate. However they ship dry but as long as it gets to the destination within a specific period of time we are OK. However it was too long and they are now not edible.

Fortunately I located another (very small) company in California who manufactures no salt added cultured veggies but unfortunately they charges $90 shipping with ice. Fortunately I was able to convince our local Whole Foods (I like Whole Foods because they work with you) to agree to carry it at least for a short time for me and they are receiving the shipment so I don't have to pay shipping costs. So for now I will buy it directly from Whole Foods until my previous manufacturer is back in business.

Sorry I was not ordering something more exotic Monnie!

Kristie and VR, thanks for your input. I decided I am giving all the doormen and maintenance men their cash gifts with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 depending on what happens when I speak directly with the doorman (men) responsible. So playing it by ear depending on my gut feeling after I speak with the responsible parties. I am not giving the superintendent a pass but he does a good job generally and I don't want to penalize him and Greg and I spoke directly with him about this and I don't want to penalize him. Sometimes employees are just not great despite a good supervisor. And believe me when I say you cannot just fire a doorman or building staff. Their union is incredibly strong. So it is not just a matter of saying OK you didn't and don't do your job properly so here's the door for you.

Ha could you imagine if we all had jobs like that where basically you cannot get fired except maybe for the most egregious behavior. But not doing your job does not fall under that category (with this union). Jane, I am with you in that tipping for dereliction of duty does not sit right with me either. After my chat with responsible parties I will decide if and what we give them for the holidays but I am not going to reward not doing one's job and really until 2015 we didn't have as many issues like this so it's not like I was rewarding bad job performance. I agree one should not reinforce poor job performance with gifts. I am glad at least this is the impetus for making positive changes re official bonuses moving forward.

Thanks again for all your input.

 

[tuffyluvr]

Missy--you are obviously a very kind and generous person, but I don't think you should feel the least bit guilty for not giving the problematic doormen a cash gift. As you have stated, they already receive a very generous bonus through your co-op, so anything you give them on top of that is just an extra gift to say "thank you". It sounds like not only are these guys not going 'above and beyond', but they are not even meeting the basic requirements of their position. I understand that you like these people and feel guilty not giving each the same gift, but IMO, why do they deserve to be rewarded for poor performance? Honestly, I'm annoyed for you! I know that every job has its stresses and challenges, and I doubt these guys are failing to notify you of your deliveries on purpose, but it does sound like there must be an issue with organization and time management.

 

[Calliecake]

Missy, It sounds like overall you have a very good relationship with the doormen in your building. If I were you I would just try to talk to them and explain how you feel or have Greg talk to them. I know how fair you and Greg are. I'm sure if you spoke to them the problem would be solved. Now if only I would have followed this advice when my neighbor killed my tree.

 

[monarch64]

Missy, thanks for providing more info on the veggies. I just read all about culturing one's own vegetables and am intrigued! I may have to start doing it, and then of course I will ship to you! Salt kills pathogenic bacteria so it's no wonder why it is so hard to come by no salt added cultured veggies--it sounds like a liability issue. Really interesting stuff, glad you shared!

 

[PintoBean]

How about tipping randomly throughout the year to the few doormen that really take care of you? Once word gets out, they'll all be going the extra mile!

 

[missy]

Thanks Tuffyluvr and Callie. I agree with you Tuffy. They are not doing it on purpose. Not to toot my own horn or anything or seem immodest but I know they like me and we have a very good relationship and nothing that has happened has been done maliciously in any way.

Monnie, you might find this helpful. This is the original company I used to order from and hope to begin ordering from again once they are back in business.
http://www.immunitrition.com/Organic_Cultured_Veggies.html

There are other ways to culture veggies (though more challenging perhaps) without using salt that is just as safe. I did consider doing it myself but I don't have the patience or energy or space with 4 cats always running around anyway lol. Anyway hope this link is helpful for you.

http://joybileefarm.com/fermented-vegetables-no-salt/


Hi Pinto, thanks but I think that would be setting us up for hard feelings. Who gets tipped for what when and well I see it as a recipe for potential disaster. Not to mention too expensive if I start tipping them throughout the year. I occasionally do that when they go above and beyond but generally not. One of the doormen/maintenance workers (he does both jobs part time) is a real doll and never accepts any tips except for the holiday gift. Yesterday one of the doormen buzzed me as soon as a delivery arrived and then insisted on sending up one of the porters with it because it was a heavy package. LOL now that is service. Let's see how long that lasts. And no I did not tip the porter.

 

[monarch64]

Thanks for those links, Missy! I follow the Joybilee blog but I never noticed her posts on fermented veggies. Awesome. I'm putting this on my "things to try" list for the summer harvest since I grow a lot of those veggies myself. I'll have to remember to revisit PS and let you know how it goes if I try it. No wonder the stuff isn't cheap--takes a lot of time and effort! In light of all of this, and being a gardener myself, I have an even better understanding of why this situation with the doorman was so upsetting to you. Wasted money and food and time=not a very generous feeling for tips/bonuses.