What should I have paid for something like this?

[canadiangrrl]

Al, I understand your frustration.

For all the lurkers out there - if you're researching diamonds with the intent to purchase, you've come to the right place. Please do your homework *before* you buy - read the tutorials, run archive searches on topics of interest, and ask the questions prior to whipping out the chequebook. 'Cause if you buy first and ask questions here later, ya might not be too thrilled with the answers.

 

[aljdewey]

The bottom line is this: If you're happy with the ring and you feel comfortable with the price you paid for it, that's all that matters. If you're happy, and you were willing to pay whatever you paid, then you didn't overpay.

 

[canadiangrrl]

"I could go on and on about the anonymity of the internet and the personal tendencies of people likely to spend time on a special interest forum such as this, but I'll stop while I'm ahead."

I'd love you to go on and on. Don't let us unwashed isolated and friendless Unabomber types stop you, Phoenixgirl.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
'I could go on and on about the anonymity of the internet and the personal tendencies of people likely to spend time on a special interest forum such as this, but I'll stop while I'm ahead.'

----------------

Hey, I'd love for you to go on and on, too. It would be interesting to see what other off-the-mark assumptions would be made about the participants here. (Before anyone's sensibilities get offended again, let me clarify: the earlier suggestions that some have led a "privileged" existence up to this point are waaaaaaaaay off the mark in my case, so it would be interesting to see what other fortune-teller prophecies will abound.)

 

[glitterata]

Hey, everybody, calm down, okay? It's an anxious time of year, so can't we cut each other some slack? It's paining me to see some of my favorite people on this board getting irritable at each other over what are mostly misunderstandings. If we were all drinking eggnog together, we'd be laughing instead of snapping.

You guys are all great folks. Peace.

 

[canadiangrrl]

Okay, I admit it.

I've led a privileged life. In the immortal words of Daltrey/Townsend, "I was born with a plastic spoon in my mouth."

I've never been homeless. I've always had enough food. I'm not ugly. I was fortunate enough to have a semi-skilled job so that I could buy my own car, afford my own rent, and pay my own way through school, given that I've been living on my own and entirely self-sufficient since the age of seventeen. I'm lucky that a few companies have since taken pity on me and hired me.

I'm from that vast, abjectly bourgeois, navel-gazing horde known as the middle class, and I happen to like sparkly bits of carbon. And for that, I am sorry.

My tongue is also firmly planted in my cheek. Mostly.

 

[phoenixgirl]

I was complimenting you all by saying that I perceived you as having above average intelligence. I have taught all levels of students and can attest to there being an innate difference in brain power. Of course I don't know what anyone's background here is. It's just been my experience that intelligent people who interact with other intelligent people on a regular basis don't realize what the "average" person is like. Maybe it's just I, but when I heard about Geena Davis being in some super smart Mensa club, I thought wow, she's super smart, I had no idea she was a genius. Then I looked at their requirements for SAT and GRE scores, and I qualified to join. Because most of the people I've known are of equal or greater intelligence than I, I had a skewed perception of "average."

Basically I was saying it's in poor taste to criticize someone else's intelligence. I didn't want to come right and say it (though maybe I should have just followed your all's lead on that one), so I danced around it, trying to lead the reader through my thought processes instead of just stating my thesis like it was the god given truth. Believe me, the way that you all write, there is no way that you would have been the reason that your school couldn't comply with the No Child Left Behind Act, hence I assumed that you had gotten an above average education instead of having been one of the lucky ones who succeeded despite the obstacles. I don't know you, maybe you're self-taught, maybe you had no shoes when you were young and walked barefoot to and from school, uphill both ways.

Aj's and Mara's responses remind me of meetings I've had with students and their parents. This past Monday Stephen, his parents, and I met with the vice principal. I explained how Stephen does things like shouting out in the middle of class, "Bill [sic] Clinton was caught with crack!" or completely ignoring me for two full minutes when I tell him to return to his seat. His parents asked, "Is this true?" "Yes," admitted Stephen. Then the whole meeting was spent saying that I didn't email enough, I emailed too much, I said that Stephen shouted when I should have said "spoke loudly," I didn't make it clear that I was speaking to Stephen when I looked at him and spoke, I said that Stephen "rapped in class," when I should have said, "Got out of his seat, moved his arm rhythmically, and made nonverbal grunts that sounded like rap music," etc. Because you weren't happy with what I said, you tore apart the little details of my post. The issues are unrelated, and one cannot be settled by bringing up the other. I have attempted to clarify my post out of courtesy, but I will not address the nitpicky attempts to divert attention back on me, even if I seem to invite it with my dry humor and verbosity. I was just trying to stick up for someone who was being unfairly attacked. If we were at a dinner party, and he had said, "Oh, so you know about diamonds, do you think I got a good deal?" you would not have responded with "For the love of God........I will never, never understand why it doesn't dawn on people to ask these questions PRE-purchase. What is the point of asking after the fact? What good does that do? Why don't people ask questions before they buy? Why is that such a tough notion?" Speaking about him in the third person in his own post was like talking about him (negatively, let's not forget) in front of him and pretending he wasn't there.

It was rude, plain and simple.

 

[tonysgeko]

Aljdewey you stated that you were trying to understand why so many people research after the fact.....that's all
Aljdewey, perhaps I can shed some light by telling you my belief about brick and mortar jewelers before finding the internet forums and other informative sites. A few years ago, a jeweler to me was someone that had inherent trust, period! What ever they told me was gospel because why would they lie? I once bought a diamond band through a local jeweler and in the store looked nice, I mean it sparkled nicely.

It was until I saw it in the car in the parking lot I noticed something was not right with the diamonds. So I knew of a jeweler that did appraisals(which now in retrospect may not have been the best idea) but anyway had the ring appraised and found out that some of the diamonds were single cut rather than the 58 faceted ones. It wasn't until I got ripped off by a jabronee that I started to do research and bingo I got hooked with all the wealth of information out there. It took this experience which I compare to a slap in the face to wake me up that there are jewelers who take advantage and my belief/myth that jewelers should be trusted shattered. What happened to me was minor compared to the people who bought diamonds and later find out they were clarity enhanced and the excuse of the jewelers is that they didn't know that fact either when they sold those diamonds to the consumers.

I rationalized after the anger subsided to a lesson learned and from then on I make it a point to ask questions about something I don't understand with jewelers that post here and elsewhere that have earned my trust.

 

[phoenixgirl]

While conceding that my pointed posts were inflammatory to some posters, I'd just like to say that it was this kind of nonsense that made DT become unpleasant and silly.

 

[aljdewey]

As I see it Phoenixgirl, you are interchanging intelligence and common sense.....the two are not necessarily interchangeable.




There are tons of academically brilliant people who don't apply common sense.




I didn't say Ray was lacking in intelligence.......I said I cannot understand how anyone can make a purchase without knowing first what value they are getting for their dollar.




If it makes me rude to say that it's unfathomable to me how anyone can make a purchase and THEN ask questions......if that makes me rude, then so be it. I'm rude. If it didn't matter then, it shouldn't matter now. If you disagree, then we'll have to agree to disagree.




With regards to the dinner party: If someone...one.....came up to me and asked that? No, I'd likely not respond that way.....as I didn't hear with the other eight people in the last two weeks who've done this. But if the TENTH guy at the party came up and asked that......perhaps, yes, I'd grab the mike at the dinner party and ask them if they make all their purchases this way.




You've not been around for the other seven this week, so perhaps you can find a place to forgive me for getting exasperated at the nth degree person to make a poor buying choice. It's this type of thinking....."I don't have time/desire to get it right the first time" that I see contributing to so much crap these days, and yes, it irks me on a personal level. Just like the people who balk at spending the $100 on an appraisal at the expense of paying DOUBLE what a stone is worth. I'm sorry, but I just cannot applaud poor buying decisions.




If that makes me rude too, then again, so be it.

 

[strmrdr]

Its about time someone posted what aljdewey did.

Frankly a lot of people are just looking for a you done good your such a great diamond buyer even if the diamond is a hunk of coal.
I see it all the time in the computer field also.
They quickly learn not to ask me what I think unless they really want to know.
If they dont really want to know then they shouldn't ask me.

 

[Mara]

I heartily agree, strm....if people don't wanna know...DON'T ASK.




This is an open forum and as such there are always going to be people who don't agree with other people's postings. Sure, fine, dandy. But give the original poster some credit...he knows how to type, he can defend himself if insults are felt given.




And for the love of god, if anyone has something to say, PLEASE come out and say it and don't dance around it trying to be suave. I think if there is one thing on this board that most of us respect, it's honesty and an upfront attitude. We all get a little bitchy from time to time which is more than understandable, and I respect someone who says what they really mean alot more than someone who makes me try to interpret what their mysterious words are saying.




Questioning someone's intelligence? That's too highbrow for me. I just wanna know...why question your purchase after the fact? Someone tell me in simple terms. I don't want to get into politics and religion.




As for tearing apart tiny details, PG...I felt your entire post was off the mark. So to me it wasn't a tiny detail...I really was not on board with the whole discussion....basically saying if you are poor you don't have the brain power to do research before you buy something? ?!




Not to mention that you chastise us for coming out and saying what we felt needed to be said...and in the same breath say you would never chastise a student in public? Guess we don't get that same courtesy. Not that I really minded...but be consistent at least.




Lastly, my mom is a teacher and has been for 20+ years. She is an excellent teacher, her kids love her. Her motto? Tough Love. She tells it how it is. She doesn't sugar coat it. She probably would say in front of the others to the kid who turned in his test blank...and guess what? He wouldn't turn in a blank test again. Prepare them for the real world, don't sugar coat it or dance around it. Her kids come back years later and tell her that she was their favorite teacher, or she sees them in a store somewhere and they remember her. And they tell her her brand of teaching was the best they knew. Honesty....best policy IMO.




I too am tired of seeing posters come into the forum AFTER the fact, ask how they did with their family jeweler (why is it always a family jeweler?) and then feel bad when I have to tell them ....guess what? You got a hunk of coal for the grand ole bargain price of $4999. Someone finally comes out and says what many of us are thinking....thank god for honesty in my book. It's not even about the O/P at all. It's more about the trend we see more and more lately. And if that isn't enough, the questions are always the same....it gets a bit exhausting after a while with all the forced good cheer.

 

[fire&ice]

My 2 cents. Everyone purchases differently. In the spirit of the holiday season, I will not rain on anyone's parade. Once things are a done deal, civility rules that one congratulates the wearer of this very sentimental of purchases. It is human nature to ask the question "how did I do?". One is not *really* asking. One is wanting a "congratulations." What in the world is wrong with making people feel good?

 

[DEVO]

Some people here forget that time is money. I could have spent days researching this but I managed to find gog pretty early on my search process and without asking for advice on this forum. So far it's only cost me time and I haven't had to take time off (get paid hourly) to do this.

I think if you are not good at researching then a forum is a good place to start.

I have friends that will research a $50 item to death when they are at most saving 10-30% by finding the lowest price possible. Yet it took them several days of figuring that out.

I agree that every item deserves some research and definitely before you purchase it. In this case, it sounds like he spent too much but is happy nonetheless. Ignorance in this case is bliss but he had to ask the question. So either he has enough disposable income and doesn't care or he had better things to do in his life for this to matter.

 

[raylswor]

Here is the additional information in case anybody is still listening:

Round Brilliant Cut,

0.83 cts
E color
SI2 clarity
60.8 depth %
57.5 table %

2.00 Girdle cut (GTCF

The GemScan 'very good cut' is based upon the depth/table percentages as well as the girdle cut.

 

[canadiangrrl]

I'm listening, Ray, but that's still not enough information to give you a solid estimate on how well the stone was cut. We need the crown and pavilion angles, or at the very least, the percentages. The interplay between the crown and pavilion largely determines how well the stone will return light. If you have a full EGL cert, the percentages should be listed.

I don't get the 2.00 on the girdle - anyone? Bueller?

 

[aljdewey]

I'm listening, too, Ray, and ditto what CG said.

Cut makes the biggest impact on price, and the information you've provided is one piece of the puzzle, but it isn't all of them.

You need to get the crown and pavilion angles. As CG mentioned, if you have a full EGL report, these will be listed as percentages (not angles) on the grading report.

This information will help determine cut, which in turn determines price.

That's great about the GemScan, but here's the problem: Very good by *what standards*? By mine? By yours? By a master diamond cutter? By AGS? The words very good don't mean anything quantitative or measurable. I might think a C+ is a very good grade; you may think it's only average. Make sense?

 

[Rank Amateur]

----------------
On 12/18/2003 9:09:10 PM raylswor wrote:

3. You have all been a very inviting bunch and the fact that you didn't take this opportunity to jump down a 25 yr old newbies throat was much appreciated.... *cough*

----------------

It's good to see you have a sense of humor, ray. They mean well, really!

 

[Mara]

The funniest part about all of this is that our dear ole sweetums R/A is a big smartass and I have a strong suspicion his original post was hugely tongue in cheek.

At this point....He loves his stone, who cares about more numbers?

Really girls you are simply asking for too much information! Silly rabbit, trix are for kids.




F&I...if one isn't really asking but rather just wanting congratulations, in my very honest and open book, one should just post asking for Congratulations. AND DON'T ASK. Or if you ask...again...be prepared for answers that run the gamut. One person can't expect everyone to feel the same as they do or always agree.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 12/19/2003 12:16:28 PM Mara wrote:


----------------

It's called reading between the lines. There's a back door statement to every question. And, I firmly believe that every answer should not be how one honestly feels. Sure, it makes *you* feel better to express *your* opinion; but, *your* opinion comes at the very expense of someone else's feelings. We aren't talking about a life changing experience that could have dire consequences. It's a stupid diamond - one that's a done deal. The significance of which certainly transcends the actual physical properties of it.

 

[Mara]

Sorry...I don't have the time to read between the lines. Subtly is hugely lost on me and I am darn proud of it.

We're all adults or at least look like them, we can all stand up for ourselves and voice our own opinions. That's about as good as it's going to get.

 

[aljdewey]

A devil's advocate question: If Ray was truly "fishing for congratulations" and nothing more, then why is he still asking if anyone is listening and providing data on the stone?

I think his request is about much more than "tell me I got a great diamond", and I think suggesting to read between the lines is oversimplifying it.

Ray......it comes back to you. If you are truly asking if you overpaid (or if you paid a fair price for the stone), you'd need to provide more info. We don't even know what you paid for the stone, so no one could say if the price was fair or if you overpaid.

Even if you told us the dollar amount, we still couldn't tell you without more information on the make of the stone. If it matters to you for real, and if you can gather that information, I'm sure plenty here could provide help.

 

[raylswor]

How could I not respond back to this discussion...this is almost getting interesting now....

----
As per the stmt:
I think his request is about much more than "tell me I got a great diamond", and I think suggesting to read between the lines is oversimplifying it.

Ray......it comes back to you. If you are truly asking if you overpaid (or if you paid a fair price for the stone), you'd need to provide more info. We don't even know what you paid for the stone, so no one could say if the price was fair or if you overpaid.

------

My request was..find out if I overpaid...if I did, chalk it up to experience and worry about it next time...

I was just trying to find out (given minimal effort during the purchase phase) how i did. I was prepared to live with the answer either way...it was curiosity I guess.

If I had the information you all have asked for ..I would provide it, but it would require another call to the jeweller - and I will be busy watching Seinfeld reruns and drinking beer over the weekend to place that call.

Who knows, after I finish my MBA in June, look for me to rise the ranks to become CEO of debeers....

, wouldn't that piss the lot of you off !!



cheers

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 12/19/2003 3:22:37 PM aljdewey wrote:

A devil's advocate question: If Ray was truly 'fishing for congratulations' and nothing more, then why is he still asking if anyone is listening and providing data on the stone?

I think his request is about much more than 'tell me I got a great diamond', and I think suggesting to read between the lines is oversimplifying it.

Because, Ray wants to hear it's a great diamond & that he didn't get ripped off. From what little I know, doesn't sound like the deal of the day; but, it's certainly pretty in his eyes. He/she has reiterated the fact that he/she didn't care if he/she overpaid a bit. In his own words all he wanted was a piece of mind. The price he paid & the information he received (& subsequently relayed) is consistent with a B&M purchase. I still believe all he wanted was a piece of mind that his done deal purchase was O.K. & I'm not oversimplifying anything. I maintain that the majority are just looking for affirmation - one way or the other.

Quite frankly, he's got the edge over all of us. He's seen it! I firmly believe that many get way too hung up on the numbers. I think it is a direct result of buying something sight unseen.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 12/19/2003 4:22:10 PM fire&ice wrote:
Ray wants to hear it's a great diamond & that he didn't get ripped off.--------

Oh, is that all? Then let's fix this right now.

Ray, you got a great diamond and you didn't get ripped off.

There.....now everyone can be happy, and perhaps we can move on.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 12/19/2003 4:42:06 PM aljdewey wrote:

----------------
On 12/19/2003 4:22:10 PM fire&ice wrote:
Ray wants to hear it's a great diamond & that he didn't get ripped off.--------

Oh, is that all? Then let's fix this right now.

Ray, you got a great diamond and you didn't get ripped off.

There.....now everyone can be happy, and perhaps we can move on.----------------

No need to be snippy. And, I think Ray has moved on as clearly stated in his post.

 

[phoenixgirl]

"As I see it Phoenixgirl, you are interchanging intelligence and common sense.....the two are not necessarily interchangeable."

AJ, I am being completely sincere when I say that you did make this clear to me, and I agree wholeheartedly. I will not be so quick to base my assessment of a stranger's intelligence on her seeming to have common sense in the future.

I caught the reference to my post here in your response in Jenny0627's post. It rubbed me the same way your previous post did, which helped me clarify what it was that bothered me. I also wouldn't want to speak in person with someone who would not entirely answer my question and used me as the butt of a personal joke with friends. I believe that it rubs some people the wrong way when their questions are hijacked so that the person who entered the conversation under the auspices of offering advice can complain, vent, gossip, ridicule, proselytize, etc. You keep defending yourself against my recriminations because you care about your reputation on this forum/about this forum in general. A newbie who has less of an interest in diamonds than we would probably say, "What? Judge me? Make a joke at my expense? Whatever you diamond losers," and walk away without getting an answer to his or her question.

I'm not saying don't discuss it. I'm saying that hijacking someone's thread to share insider anecdotes or to express your frustration at everyone who asks the same question is out of place.

 

[strmrdr]

All bow before princess phoenixgirl ruler of all forums!
Tremble before her mighty keyboard
Pray that its mighty fire is not unleashed for the diamonds will turn to dust!
Then we might have to fight about which is better looking cats or dogs instead of pretty stones!
Cast off all emotion and become AI bots in service of the princess!
Tremble before her mighty sidekick fire&ice for you will be frozen then seared into pretty stones.
Hear ye Hear ye bow now before it is too late.

Wait in the distance what is it oh yes it is the Goddess aljdewey she will save us!!
Help us we are being driven insane but people who don’t research before throwing away 10 grand on pretty stones!!
The princess and her mighty keyboard are going to turn our diamonds in too dust!

NOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not the diamonds screams the Goddess.
She calls forth her champion to battle!
The people scream Mara Mara unleash your mighty keyboard the most powerful.
Mara and fire&ice lock ip sockets and the packets flow.
Its an epic battle that goes back and forth!
phoenixgirl and aljdewey stand frozen at the sight of the power they have unleashed!!
Who will win no one knows!
Will our diamonds be turned to dust!!!???? Will we be turned to stone!!!???

Tune in next week for the conclusion of our program on the pricescope humor channel.

 

[pyramid]

However as a long time lurker, I remember people buying stones after asking questions and then not taking the experts advice. Mara is the person who springs to mind when she bought a shallow stone with low crown angles. No offense to Mara but I believe she would not buy that stone now. I think everyone who comes on here wants to buy now and then regrets it later unless they are patient enough to read for a year or so beforehand.

Also to the original poster raylswor, I believe crown and pavillion angles have to be taken before the stone is mounted. The girdle number does not ring any bells here either, I believe they are usually graded as Extremely Thin, Very Thin, Thin, Medium, Slightly Thick, Thick or Extremely Thick. As you said you would chalk it up to experience for next time so maybe you should read more about ideal cut diamonds and the four Cs on this newsboard tutorial. Regarding what you paid only a qualified INDEPENDENT appraiser of which there are a few here Richard Sherwood, Oldminer, Rockdoc can really tell you what the diamond is worth.

If you have the diamond appraised within the timescale which you can return it this may be in your best interests. Myself I bought a 7 stone ring 0.92 carats back in 1991 and because I have now educated myself in an amateur way about diamonds I decided 12 years (yes 12 years later) to have it appraised and was disappointed by the appraisal but ofcourse at this stage I cannot do anything about it. My appraisal value came in at $1150 less than I paid 12 years ago and I expected it would have increased in that time but my own heart was telling me after louping the stones that it certainly was not worth what I originally paid. The original price was $4500 so you can see it is quite a percentage of the price which my item was not worth.

I here what you say about watching Seinfeld episodes but if your Girl becomes interested in diamonds and learns about them down the road, as so many on all the diamond boards have done, she may be the one who is disappointed down the road. If you still have time to return the diamond I would suggest you get an independent appraisal as it is only prudent to find out if you were ripped off.

I am just a consumer and can understand also that maybe you and your girl are not the type who will ever be interested in researching diamonds and if this is the case and you just want to go with its beauty to the naked eye then just enjoy the stone. I take it you know that inclusions in SI2 diamonds can sometimes be seen with the naked eye depending on the sight of the individual.

This newsboard very much rules that Cut is most important but lots of people would not buy a diamond under SI1 clarity and very many would not buy below VS1 and VS2. The color of the stone at E is colorless and you would pay a premium for that, in the near colorless range most would buy down to color I and perhaps J with an ideal cut. You could have gone down to a G or H color and upgraded the clarity to VS2 or SI1, unless you can see color in diamonds which most cannot in a face up diamond until past G color.

Whatever you decide to do 'Congratulations on your engagement'.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 12/21/2003 1:41:41 AM phoenixgirl wrote:


I caught the reference to my post here in your response in Jenny0627's post

----------------

PG, it is quite clear you want a soapbox to give sermon from, but pick it somewhere else. My comment in Jenny's post was NOT a reference to your post at all.

It was a tongue-in-cheek reference to something said by someone else. It had absolutely nothing to do with you. It also wasn't said with malice, and nothing in it would make Jenny think it was. The only one taking offense is the one who's looking for it, and that's you.

I don't feel the need to "defend" myself in response to your posts......anyone who knows me from here will tell you I'm a sticker for detail and accurate representation. If you assume my thoughts or make incorrect presumptions about me or my comments, yes I will correct them.

Look, let's just agree to disagree on this, OK. We don't see things the same way on this, and we aren't going to. You're entitled to your viewpoint, and I'm entitled to mine. I'm done with this subject.