What is wrong with this sapphire? Why is it so reasonably priced?

[michela002]

Can anyone tell me what is wrong with this sapphire?

Item ID : B125
Weight(ct) : 2.94
Color : Blue
Dimensions (mm): 8.02 X 7.36 X 5.21
Origin : Ceylon
Treatments : No Enhancement
Shape :Emerald Cut
Cut :Step-Cut
Color Intensity :Medium Strong
Clarity erfection (IF, VVS1)
Per carat Price: $ 400
TOTAL PRICE : $ 1,176

(http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompany.com)

It seems a great price and its the colour I want (assuming the pics accurately reflect the colour of course.) It''s a lot cheaper than some of the other stones (but it is a far lighter blue - which I want, but maybe others don''t.)

If I were to speak to someone at the Natural Sapphire Company and they said yes, it sparkles (and doesn''t look like coloured glass) and has life etc ... is there anything wrong with it? Can anyone see a reason why I shouldn''t get something like that, and why it is so cheap?

(Thanks for your help. I''m not so sapphire-savvy, just trying to find my bearrings really!)

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

If it is what it says it is, it is a very resonable deal.

Definately a nice photo too.

 

[widget]

Hi, Indecisive! It sure does look nice to me! (I LOVE emerald cuts

)

Maybe the only "problem" the stone has is (lucky for you) the lighter color.

Why don''t you give Michael Arnstein (The Natural Sapphire Company)a call and ask him directly what''s right AND what''s wrong with that particular stone. I''ve heard he''s a straight shooter.

Good Luck!
Widget


PS I suppose you could ask if it has any zoning issues.

Also, if it''s being unheated is important to you, my guess is that it only has an "in house" certificate. You could purchase it contingent on certification from AGTA. (Of course, you''ll probably have to pay for the AGTA cert)

 

[bar01]

That price is low.

Okay - I will give my wild a$$ guess as a consumer. However, as often mentioned, judging from photographs for colored stones in very difficult.

The things that affect price in Sapphires are - Cut, Hue, Tone, Saturation, Clarity, Size, and treatment.

It is untreated and says it has very good clarity.

However, the two things that appear to affect its price are the hue and tone. It appears to be off blue (a touch of green? I can't really tell), and lightly toned - with some gray too? The market prefers the more saturated, darker true blue or blue with a touch of violet. But - I think you were looking for something more lighter blue which is good for pricing

An example of the "market" preferred sapphire blue characteristics can be found here at this link, but that is just what the market likes and what affects prices - go with what YOU like!

Also I can guess that it looks like the cut is slightly off symmetrical - also may have some windowing?
.


At this point I agree with your suggestion - call Michael Arnstein or one of his people and just have a chat with him about the stone. He carries more expensive sapphires (also some cheaper) and he will tell you the reasons behind the pricing of this one.

Since you are an Aussie, perhaps you might consider having them send the sapphire to an independent appraiser near naturals store in NYC - before sending it to you overseas.

A possible choice for an independent appraiser near NYC might be THIS GUY. You could ask him for pre-sale initial opinion rather than a full GIA based workup, since this is not a super expensive stone. Call him and ask how much he might charge to look at it and talk with you

Just some ideas and wild a$$ guesses.

 

[strmrdr]

Before spending a lot of money and hassle importing a stone from the US Id contact lonewoodminer and see what he can do:
https://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/profile/myprofile.asp?userID=11499

 

[windowshopper]

the lighter less saturated colors are far less $--nothing wrong with it. with colored stones its the eye of the beholder as long as everything else is accurate

 

[loupe]

Dear Indecisive,

In the photograph that you posted, there is prominent zoning. The cut is very deep and the crown is ...how shall I say this?...shallow? I can''t make out the girdle from the photograph. As a result of the cut issues that I can see, there may be setting problems. Which means that you just might have a nice rock to play with that you cannot wear. As other people have noted, we cannot tell if this sapphire has a big window in it. Whether it can be set, prominent zoning, and a big window will lower the price per carat. The color description is using terms that do not match the picture. There''s nothing medium or strong about this color. Again, this could be a trick of the photograph but you said you liked the light color.

It is a lovely color but I agree with the postings that it should be checked by a dependable gem lab for the treatment disclosure. There are great gem labs in Australia, as well. Take it to a jeweler you trust and ask if it can be set. Don''t even think about recutting if he says no. That''s another can of worms.

Buy it, check it, enjoy it or return it within the amount of time the dealer is willing to have it out of his hands.

Good luck

loupe

 

[Michael_E]

Indecisive,
There''s nothing wrong with that stone. Color zoning is common in sapphire and is more easily seen in paler colors. The designs for the cuts on these stones is not deeply considered before cutting and they are usually cut by people who have to cut a large number of stones every day to make a living. This means that the cut could be better, but it is not bad the way it is. It''s very hard to tell about crown height from this picture since the picture is taken from a low angle. If this is the color that you want, I would get it, since these stones always look better when they''re in your hand. Another plus is that I believe that all of their stones are certed as unheated, which is a big deal with a lot of folks lately. If you get it, make sure to make a follow up post with your opinions.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/5/2005 9:12:43 AM
Author: windowshopper
the lighter less saturated colors are far less $--nothing wrong with it. with colored stones its the eye of the beholder as long as everything else is accurate

Secomd this !

There's serious price difference between the deep blue sapphires and all the rest. No reason but tradition, I guess. Since virtually no other gem comes in that blue color with comparable consistency....

Of course, the pricing has nothing to do with the great looks of light blue sapphire. Those would put fine aqua to shame any day - if you can find one. You just did

I don't think the barely-there strypes of darker color (the zoning mentioned by Michael E.) will be even this much visible in person with no magnification to help.

One thing is not too clear from the color labels at Walter Arnstein... They call this stone's color "medium strong": does that mean light and grayish (light tone & not much saturation) or light and blue (light tone strong saturation) ? Can't tell from pics... this needs to be seen. Anyway: if it does not look "gray" to you in person the point is moot - there's no hair-splitting official color scale to say any different.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/5/2005 1:56:10 PM
Author: Michael_E

The designs for the cuts on these stones is not deeply considered before cutting and they are usually cut by people who have to cut a large number of stones every day to make a living.

It''s very hard to tell about crown height from this picture since the picture is taken from a low angle.

So... is there room for improvement here ?

 

[lonewoodminer]

Hello All,

A couple of quick comments about the sapphire pictured. The only comment I''d have is the cut looks a bit out of proportion, typical of some native cut stone - as someone mentioned before the quality of some of the mass produced cutting varies greatly. The stone may have been very light and the depth of the cut has been used to deepen the colour. Some zoning in natural sapphire is quite common and shouldnt be considered a major problem as long as the final cut stone looks attractive. Regarding pricing I will post a new message this evening with some thoughts on this subject. I''d like to say more but have a broken mine trommel to go and weld up, great fun on sunday morning!

Cheers Andrew Lane

 

[michela002]

Thanks everyone! Your posts raised a two questions for me though:

1. What is zoning?
2. What is windowing?

Bertrand - thanks for sending me the link to that "colour chart" thing - it appears from that chart that my colour preference is probably in the "middle" or even "commercial" range - cheaper, woo hoo!

Loupe - I did think perhaps it looked kind of deep but didn''t know if that was normal. Will a deeper sapphire not "flash" as much, and have as much sparkle? (I know a sapphire doesn''t sparkle the same way as a diamond, but I''ve seen some sapphires that do flash beautifully and I want one of them. Lol.)

I''m concluding from all of your posts that it could be a great deal and a great stone but I would need to ask some questions first and make sure (about "windowing", "zoning", and the cut) and get it independently apparaised etc. That is cool, I just wanted to know there wasn''t something glaringly obviously wrong that made it not even worth considering that would be obvious to someone who knows sapphires, but wasn''t obvious to me.

Thanks everyone for your help, I really appreciate it.

 

[Michael_E]

valeria101,
Is there room for improvement? But of course, there''s always room for improvement. Any step cut stone has a rather small band of pavilion and crown angles within which it will look it''s best. The lower the refractive index, the narrower those angle combinations become. This stone does appear to have a crown that should be deeper and the pavilion facets are too few and obviously not very well aligned. I''m surprised that Walter Arnstein doesn''t have many of their stones recut so that they look better, but then they are selling the fact that they''re unheated and don''t focus so much on cut. If I was re-cutting this I would make it slightly narrower and shorter, make the crown angles taller, add two tiers of facets on the pavilion and straighten everything out so that it looked symmetrical. It would probably lose .30 to .40 carat and have a better polish.
I personally would never step cut a stone like this. With a color zoned stone you can mask those dark and light stripes very effectively by cutting with a Barion cut or some modification of it. This gives you long, needle like facets radiating from the center of the stone, which bounces light all over the stone and not just straight across it. It tends to "mix" any unevenness in color, gives better light return from more viewing angles and has much more of the coveted "sparklies" than a step cut stone will. You do, however, lose more weight in the cutting, but since your wearing these things because of their beauty, weight should be less of a concern than overall size and beauty.
Can you do better on price...probably, if you are not concerned with it being unheated and don''t need a cert from a major lab stating that. If you need those things, then this stone is well priced.

 

[movie zombie]

ok, admittedly i''m new to all this, but in looking at the stone it looked deep to me. how is it going to be set? will the depth of this stone limit how it can be mounted?

peace, movie zombie

 

[Libster]

Date: 3/5/2005 11:17:58 PM
Author: movie zombie
ok, admittedly i''m new to all this, but in looking at the stone it looked deep to me. how is it going to be set? will the depth of this stone limit how it can be mounted?

peace, movie zombie

Can''t you just see any colored stone in this setting?! Another Leon Mege masterpiece www.artofplatinum.com

 

[michela002]

Date: 3/5/2005 11:33:40 PM
Author: Libster

Date: 3/5/2005 11:17:58 PM
Author: movie zombie
ok, admittedly i''m new to all this, but in looking at the stone it looked deep to me. how is it going to be set? will the depth of this stone limit how it can be mounted?

peace, movie zombie

Can''t you just see any colored stone in this setting?! Another Leon Mege masterpiece www.artofplatinum.com

MUWAH ... oh so beautiful!

Yeah perhaps the stone is a bit deep. The setting will look like this:

Like this, only with a very thin bezel around the traps, and with the sapphire not quite so BIG! Lol.

 

[Sagebrush]

Well, still suffering from Jet lag after traveling thirty hours from Rangoon to Hartford so everyone will please forgive all these posts and indulge me. I think a number of the replies to this post missed the import of the question, ie "why is it so cheap?" While there is "nothing wrong" with the stone it appears to have a few negatives that require a subtraction from the price.

Lets begin with the perfect stone, the ideal sapphre, I make a picture in my mind and subtract from there, this is what I see. Start with the color. It is definately blue but is it the perfect tone of blue? (I disagree with my friend Ana here it is beauty not tradition that sets the standard) Deep, rich, beautiful? Compare it to the emerald cut posted in this thread or take a look at my sapphire article on the Secrets Of The Gemtrade website. Well maybe not so subtract a bunch. How about saturation? (the vividness of the hue)? Do I see a gray mask? Difficult to judge in a photo but a gray mask is often present in Ceylon stones and it dampens the brightness or vividness of the color (hue) requiring a second subtraction in price.

Now any visible inclusions? Don''t see any but how about that zoning? Does it bother your eye, it does mine. That is, perhaps a little and we wish it wasn''t there so subtract again. Ok now about the cut. It is difficult to tell particularly with a square cut much about the brilliance from this photograph. You mentioned that you believe that sapphire doesn''t sparkle like diamond, well leaving aside subtleties like dispersion, if perfectly cut it can come pretty close say within 10% and you are correct to demand it.

Blue sapphire is my favorite stone. I just got back from Thailand and Burma with some beautiful examples that I will post next week. One a 2 carat plus natural Burmese I sold for $12,000, the second a "Kashmir blue" natural color Ceylon that sold for $14,000. These two stones are as close to perfection as I have ever seen in the two carat size. Are they worth forty times the price of the stone you are considering? As a doomed prince once said: "That is the question."

 

[valeria101]

Date: 3/13/2005 4:38:31 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise

These two stones are as close to perfection as I have ever seen in the two carat size. Are they worth forty times the price of the stone you are considering?

Since they sold at that price... who can say they are not worth the price.

The two sapphires have well proved their worth and being the best relative to a very old, established standard, they will likely sell for the current highest sapphire price anywhere, anytime from now to infinity. This is great, of course. For once, with some value established by the best and brightest of the species, all the rest can enjoy the grace of the name.

No need to use a double standard: find beauty just in the eye of one lenient beholder to establish demand, and agree with a transcendent norm for convenient pricing.

It is hard for me to deny pleasure looking forward to a piece of powder blue, transparent crystal fielding light flecks from left to write over my hand - color zoning & all. If the exquisite sensation can comes without much pain, all for the better.


About beauty and tradition...
This is way too philosophical for me. There must be something aside visible characteristics making this stone desirable over a perfectly blue fake. Since synthetics have not replaced all but the perfect naturals over more than a century, there is room for mystery. I can hardly imagine one conflicting with the other - as much as I can understand.

 

[movie zombie]

silly me, i assumed that Indecisive was happy with the color of the stone......but richard does raise a good point: $$$$ should be subtracted if it does not meet the industry ''criteria'' of what is desireable. therefore, perhaps Indecisive can bargain the price down a bit.

peace, movie zombie

 

[valeria101]

Or... do you think this piece make fair competition ? Both cut and color looks a notch up to me. The size is about the same (a bit narrower, and a bit longer) for about 2 carats because of the different proportions.

This one got a good price slash not because of zoning or color saturation (there''s no aparent issue with either) but the hue position a subtle notch into violet from the expected cold blue.

If only the other piece could have been this nicely shaped

(stock number U62)

 

[michela002]

Movie zombie - yeah I like the colour, lol. At least the colour as it appears on my screen. Lucky for me I love the lighter colours that at least appear to be cheaper

Valeria - oh I do like the colour of that one too (not quite so much I think, maybe a little too dark for me?) and it seems not so deep. It is good to know I might still be available to find one!

 

[movie zombie]

Indecisive,

i, too, march to a different drum when it comes to color. however, i do think it is important to understand how the industry prices and color is one of the criteria. while i may like a different tone/hue, i would want to know if i was paying top dollar for the industry standard or if the stone''s price had been adjusted for not meeting that standard.

i think that if you''ve been out and about and seen enough stones to define what color it is that you do like, then you should go for it.

for my taste, i prefer the stone ana posted. i like the lines of the cut, the color, and that it isn''t as deep. i''d probably do an east/west setting with it......

peace, movie zombie