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What is this inclusion?

str8sh0otr

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
8
I scoured the internet and local jewelry stores for the best 1ct diamond I could find for my honey. I looked at so many stones that i got dizzy. I have eyes like a hawk, and by the time I got towards the end of my hunt....I could tell the difference between a H, I and J in a matter of seconds.... in fact when the jewelers were giving me the diamond presentation they would make jokes about hiring me. I could also spot inclusions in supposedly "eye clean" stones. Especially if I tracked them after viewing with a loupe. (I have to learn everything about any major purchase before I buy, thats just my style)

Here is my dilema. I ended up buying from a family friend who deals in uncertified diamonds. I went to him originally but did not feel comfortable without a cert. Also he is a little tough to deal with...started out just asking for a price and told me he would make me a ring without seeing anything first. He's known me since I was a baby so he gave me that trust me I know best approach. Finally when I went back there at the end he obliged and showed me maybe 5 or so diamonds that I could have in my price range (<$5000). So here is what I got for $4,700:

1.04ct according to his scale
G, VS

**link removed by moderator. Please upload to forum directly**


I own a pair of cheap-o digital calipers which are supposedly accurate to the 100th mm. The diamater according to them is 6.55mm which I understand to be a pretty good cut? I do believe it is a good cut because it was a very lively stone compared to others. I also think his estimate of G is probably not too overstated because the stone looks quite white. Maybe GIA would call this an H or I? I have a pretty good zoom camera and tripod so I was able to take some pics. My problem is the inclusion at 2:30. I want to know what it is, if it is a durability issue. When looking at the stone without magnification this cannot be seen to the casual observer. I can see it because I know where to look and how to hold it. The first time I looked at the stone took me a very long time to spot it, which was only after I picked up his loupe. Can somebody tell me what it is and what they think the stone would be graded according to GIA?
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,963
Looks like a feather, which is the diamond industry's pretty word for fracture or crack.

Whether "it is a durability issue" is a black and white question to a gray reality.
Even a flawless diamond can chip if it is hit just right.
Feathers do not do anything to make a diamond stronger, I'll say that.

Some feathers are more unfortunate than others and only an independent professional appraiser who does not sell diamonds, and with a GG or Graduate Gemologist certificate from GIA should be consulted to give you an opinion on your diamond.

It is impossible to grade color clarity from pics.

I do not recommend what you have done, buy from a friend and buy a diamond without a grading report from a reputable lab GIA or AGS.

One diamond could look identical to another to the untrained eye, yet one may be worth twice the other.
I'd return it for a refund or send it to GIA to find out what it really is.
Value depend on what it is.
You don't know what it is so don't know what it should cost.
One thing is for sure, people who SELL diamond are smart and never give anything away.

Many sellers hope buyers know as little as possible and just trust the seller's word.
IMHO too much money is at stake to buy that way.

We have not even brought up CUT, the most important factor that determines the beauty of a diamond.
There is much more to cut quality than diameter.
A 1 ct with a diameter of 6.55mm could have the girdle placed too high or low.
Both will not return maximum light back to your eyes as well as if the girdle is in the optimum place.
BTW, girdle position is usually expressed via crown and pavilion angles.

Click on the tab above for Knowledge, then Advanced Tutorial and learn about cut.
 

str8sh0otr

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
8
took your advice, but could not find a jewelry appraiser that did not also sell jewelry. however, i got one guy to look at it and said the following: it is at best an H color and S12 maybe even I1 with that feather since it is easily seen with the loupe. He said he'd charge me $250 to send it to GIA which I do not want to dump more money into it if it is a bad ring. he also has a 1ct H, SI2 GIA stone that he will sell me in a setting for $4,500 so I tool it all with a grain of salt. Also, he had to order it, so it was not in the store to compare.





I am getting sick to my stomach thinking that I may have bought an I1 stone. Nobody who I have shown the ring to can see the feather, however I can see it with my naked eye in the right conditions.

can somebody else give me an opinion as to the clarity on this? i think i have a shot to take it back to my jeweler and ask for something better if the feather would really put it that low on the scale.

P1030064.jpg

P1030074.JPG
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
as kenny said it is impossible to grade color or clarity from pics. can you return the diamond? it may be easiest to start over rather than to spend money on appraisals/lab reports. or you could get the seller to pay for the GIA report?
 

str8sh0otr

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
8
i guess i will talk to him and see. it will be difficult to confront him but i guess im learning my lesson the hard way....
 

lewood

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
163
Don't beat yourself up over this. A friend should want the best for you, as you want the best for your future wife. Your friend may be a little disheartened at first, but I think in the long run everything will work out, smooth over, and all will be forgotten. People in businesses (or people in general, actually) eventually learn to not take things personally. Lots of people return diamonds. When buying such an important item like a diamond, people are often flooded with emotion and don't see as clearly (though you say you were almost an expert!). It's not until you get home and stare at the ring that you start to notice little imperfections that you didn't see before. What you are going through is perfectly understandable. I think the right thing to do in this situation is take the ring back to your friend (the jeweler) and ask to exchange the diamond. Keep in mind though, bigger isn't always better. You may want to look at a better quality stone in a lower carat, especially since you have such a pristine eye. I only suggest this because you have a $5,000 limit. You can find a great .8 diamond with excellent stats for that price. You can't really tell the difference between a .8 and a 1.0. I hope everything works out for you- I'm sure it will! Like I said before, don't beat yourself up over this :)
 

str8sh0otr

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
8
Thanks Lewood. I was not meaning to suggest I am an expert (obv am not haha) just that when I went to other stores and they put a few diamonds side by side or asked if I could see certain things in the diamond my eyes could perceive differences that apparently most of their other customers couldnt. I did see that feather when I was in the store, but it seems to show up much easier at home, especially under fluorescent lighting. My fear is that I might do this with any stone I get unless I go way up on the clarity scale...

Anyway I am taking the advice from this site and going back to him. I think I will ask him to order me a certified stone. He should have access to better pricing than I see on the internet (right?) This way I can get the reassurance of a cert and still buy from him so no hurt feelings. I was tempted to buy on the internet but I do want to support the local guys. Wish me luck.
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
str8sh0otr|1312937636|2987595 said:
Thanks Lewood. I was not meaning to suggest I am an expert (obv am not haha) just that when I went to other stores and they put a few diamonds side by side or asked if I could see certain things in the diamond my eyes could perceive differences that apparently most of their other customers couldnt. I did see that feather when I was in the store, but it seems to show up much easier at home, especially under fluorescent lighting. My fear is that I might do this with any stone I get unless I go way up on the clarity scale...

Anyway I am taking the advice from this site and going back to him. I think I will ask him to order me a certified stone. He should have access to better pricing than I see on the internet (right?) This way I can get the reassurance of a cert and still buy from him so no hurt feelings. I was tempted to buy on the internet but I do want to support the local guys. Wish me luck.
usually internet vendors have better pricing because they do not have markup cost associated with having a retail store.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,963

str8sh0otr

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
8
***UPDATE***

So I took the ring back. He was very accommodating, as I suppose I should have expected. We talked at length about the diamond and my options. Right off the bat he was talking me out of getting a more expensive diamond. He says he did the best he could for my budget and that after 3 weeks or so and the novelty wears off we will stop hunting for the inclusion. Especially when it gets all gummed up with soap and debris lol. I am an engineer by trade and very precise with everything I do so this is hard for me to accept, i think i will always be particular. But then again it wont be on my hand so out of sight out of mind?!?

First off he says he normally doesn't get certificates because he knows what he is buying. He said that I can get them certified but obv he will pass on the cost to me. He doesn't suggest it because he is a family friend and insists that he is not or will not take advantage of me (I should say that I honestly believe this). His opinion is to put the money towards a better stone not a certificate. The other problem is that I am proposing in Hawaii in 4wks and the turnaround time for GIA is cutting it too close. EGL USA might work but nobody seems as keen on those certs. He also said that he can find me a diamond with the exact characteristics I want but if he calls his dealers in NY and asks for one stone the price goes up because they know he needs it. Anyway he does have a few other options in the store which I may like:

Opt 1 - $6,000
A 1.23 ct round stone. This has a black inclusion under the table. The inclusion looks just like a thread on this forum where the girl is debating b/w 2 different 2ct cushion cut diamonds that were GIA graded VS2. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/what-would-you-pick-size-over-quality.164317/ If I tried hard enough I could spot with my naked eye after a few seconds of twisting the diamond around to various angles (it is very small compared to the feather in my old diamond) less obvious than my original diamond. Not sure if this inclusion will mess with my head like the first stone. He says a conservative GIA grade for this is H, SI1 so you can round down to be really safe (I, SI2 maybe?). Cut seems ok, returns a lot of light. 6.8mm diameter.

Opt 2 - $6,000
Another uncertified stone. 1.04ct. This stone looks really good. To me, flawless under the loupe (I must have spent 20+ minutes with it inside and outside the store) and H&A under the loupe. ~6.4mm diameter. He said it is a G or H, VS1. Again I'm discounting 2 grades just to be safe and compare prices so assume I VS2.

Opt 3 - $7,000
This is a used (gasp!) GIA certified solitaire. E, VS2. This stone is stark white but does not have quite the brilliance of the first 2. I am not sure if it was not as appealing to me because I like the warmer colors or not, but at least with this there would be no question in what I am getting.

All these prices are cash with a 6prong solitaire setting. I'm eager to hear what other PSers would do in this situation. Opinions welcome!
 

centralsquare

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
2,201
It is hard to provide any guidance without more specs. Do you have any details for the one that was GIA graded?
 

str8sh0otr

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
8
No details on the GIA stone. Its not as visually pleasing so i ruled it out. He actually let me take all the diamonds out of his shop and play with them. So I looked at them in all different light and various angles and made some more connections in my area with local jewelers/appraisers.

I took my old ring (above) and the 1.23ct stone to a diamond cutter downtown where i live. (I narrowed it down to those 2) Really nice guy, he surmised my old diamond would be a GIA SI2 because of the feather and an H color. It has not been taken out of the setting so he warned me the color grade is his best estimate. He also said it was a little spready?!? But it looked good cause of the large diameter just would not be considered a very good cut. He said sometimes he will cut in extra facets for people in diamonds like those and then i would have a custom cut which seems kinda cool. 16 extra facets for $200 if my memory serves me. He also let me check out the 2.5ct diamond he was cutting at the time and I got to check out his shop. Some very cool tools an engineer could appreciate :D .

The 1.23 ct diamond he took some pictures of and also put in the computer scanner since it was loose. He printed out the sticker for me. He was impressed with the cut of this stone, and said it was a solid I color, SI1 clarity. I do like the clarity of this one better as the carbon spot disappears nicely, whereas light seems to reflect through that feather making it look like a scratch.



This is a picture of the printout.

Basically everyone has corroborated the diamond characteristics I describe above and this guy I just saw was definitely trustworthy and knowledgeable. I feel like the 1.23 is a more valuable stone because of its proportions and I have a very good idea of what im getting as far as the cut so im leaning towards that. Anybody want to make me feel good about that decision haha...

Time to worry about proposal technique instead of the diamond. We are leaving for Hawaii in 2 weeks! Sunset stroll on the beach proposal or romantic dinner?

IMG_0244.JPG
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
22,497
The pavilion angle on this one is steep. Can you post some pictures?

Here is what the HCA grades it.

Factor Grade
Light Return Good
Fire Fair
Scintillation Fair
Spread or diameter for weight Very Good

Total Visual Performance 5.6 - Good - Only if price is your main criterion

You can read up on the hca tool here:
www.pricescope.com/tools/hca
 

John P

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,563
It sounds like you're receiving good treatment. Certainly he is giving you a nice detailed overview of cut specifics.

I am not intending to rain on the parade here, but do feel I should note that his scanner software appears to employ the old AGS software. The results, including the overall "AGS1" conform to the 2D proportions system which was discontinued some years ago. Currently a diamond of that spread with 58T, 41.6PA and 34.5CA is predicted to receive AGS4 in light performance. The precise grade would depend on details of minor facets, brillianteering, etc - and could be checked using the new AGS PGS software - or sending to the lab.

I should also point out that this is one of those proportions cases where GIA disagrees with AGSL as well as the HCA prediction. Those primary measurements qualify for GIA EX in cut, depending on other details.

My opinion on Hawaii is that anything you do will be epic. It's one of the most breathtaking garden spots of the world.
 

str8sh0otr

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
8
In my research I have been concentrating on the GIA reports so I did take those dimensions and put them into the GIA cut estimator. That led to my initial high impression on the cut on this (aside from what my eyes were telling me). I have never actually seen a AGS diamond in person, but have seen GIA "Excellent" diamonds that looked great, similar to what this one looks like to me.

Is this the AGS chart that would be used for the diamond:

http://www.agslab.com/members/content/docs/cuttinground/6mm-58Guidelines.pdf

(6mm 58T?)

And if so, that means that 1 degree shallower pavilion would make it ideal? Is that something that could be modified in the future if the industry ever standardized on one cut grading system?
 

Stone-cold11

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
14,069
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/laboratory_cut_grades_what_report_doesn’t_show

That guideline you posted is just a guideline, AGS0 cut performance grading do not grade based on averaged proportions like GIA does but takes into account of all the facets location and orientation, even minor facets not shown in the guidelines. 1 degree is a lot in the diamond performance world. Read up on the above article I linked to.
 

str8sh0otr

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 7, 2011
Messages
8
Understood.

I guess my question is, is it likely that a diamond cutter could improve upon this stone, to the extent that it would satisfy the more fussy diamond buyer? Or is this always going to be a ~4 in light performance.
 

Stone-cold11

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
14,069
You could do a recut, probably by polishing away the pavilion, making it smaller, but that will mean a lighter stone and is not without risk as the stone might shatter on the polishing wheel.
 
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