What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursing?

[Dancing Fire]

My younger daughter is going back to school for her AA degree in nursing. After graduating with a BS degree in Healthcare Administration 3 years ago, but couldn't find a full time job,so she decided to go back to school for a nursing degree. She have been applying for the past 3 year but never gotten pick from the lottery system until this year, so more tuitions and books to pay the next 2 yrs...

 

[AprilBaby]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Two years. One is an associate degree, the other a bachelors . When I was in school an AA in nursing got you a job, you could do most everything but be the boss. With a BS already all she needs is the "nursing" part of the degree and she will be fine. The rest is the "business" part of the degree. She already has that.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Two years. One is an associate degree, the other a bachelors . When I was in school an AA in nursing got you a job, you could do most everything but be the boss. With a BS already all she needs is the "nursing" part of the degree and she will be fine. The rest is the "business" part of the degree. She already has that.

Thanks April, but what about salary wise b/t a BS and AA degree?

 

[NTave]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

There is a large shift in healthcare to use only nurses with BSN (bachelor of science in nursing degrees) which makes it harder to find a job as an associate degree nurse, but the jobs are still there. Where I work ASN nurses can be hired, but are contracted to finish a BSN within a certain time frame(even if they already have a bachelors degree in something else). The American Nurses Association wants all practicing nurses to have BSN degrees by 2017..in the location I am from it is harder to find a job as a new grad without a BSN to back it up, but I am east coast. There are still plenty of nursing home/rehab/office jobs avail for ASN nurses, but hospitals prefer BSN.
As far as pay, it depends where you work. There is very little, if any pay scale difference between an ASN and BSN nurse where I work. Places south of me are primarily unionized and there is a pay benefit to having a BSN. Hospital nurses are paid on an hourly wage basis. It also depends greatly location...Pay scale is quite different between where I work and say, North Carolina, and it also depends on urban/suburban/rural location as well.
Nursing is hard, backbreaking, never ending work, but its very rewarding as well.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

She can still be an RN with just the associate degree.

 

[Autumnovember]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

I have met many, many, many amazing AA RN's who truly know their job so well. With that being said, I would strongly suggest your daughter get her BSN.

Many hospitals are requiring a nurse to have their bachelors degree in order to be hired. The nurses who have their associates degree are being asked to get their bachelors in order to continue working at the hospitals. Where I live, nursing homes are a big area where associate degree nurses are not being phased out.

There is a significant difference in salary, at least where I live.

I have a similar story to your daughter, I have my bachelors in psychology and realized I didn't want to go all the way with it. I immediately applied to accelerated bachelor of nursing programs. I was accepted, started taking my pre req's for nursing school, and began nursing school. It was a 15 month program for my bachelors in nursing and while it was extremely time demanding and very difficult, it was the best thing I have ever done for myself.

Tell your daughter to look into accelerated bachelor programs. She can be finished with her bachelors in nursing in as little as 11 months (Drexel University in PA is 11 months).

 

[kathley]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

There is a large shift in healthcare to use only nurses with BSN (bachelor of science in nursing degrees) which makes it harder to find a job as an associate degree nurse, but the jobs are still there. Where I work ASN nurses can be hired, but are contracted to finish a BSN within a certain time frame(even if they already have a bachelors degree in something else). The American Nurses Association wants all practicing nurses to have BSN degrees by 2017..in the location I am from it is harder to find a job as a new grad without a BSN to back it up, but I am east coast. There are still plenty of nursing home/rehab/office jobs avail for ASN nurses, but hospitals prefer BSN.

My daughter is a BSN as well. The ASN have been downgraded to LPN in our area. They can't do IV pushes, give blood, and they must have BSN nurses sign off on all patient assessments. Therefore, the hospitals here will only hire BSN degreed nurses.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

There is a large shift in healthcare to use only nurses with BSN (bachelor of science in nursing degrees) which makes it harder to find a job as an associate degree nurse, but the jobs are still there. Where I work ASN nurses can be hired, but are contracted to finish a BSN within a certain time frame(even if they already have a bachelors degree in something else). The American Nurses Association wants all practicing nurses to have BSN degrees by 2017..in the location I am from it is harder to find a job as a new grad without a BSN to back it up, but I am east coast. There are still plenty of nursing home/rehab/office jobs avail for ASN nurses, but hospitals prefer BSN.

My daughter is a BSN as well. The ASN have been downgraded to LPN in our area. They can't do IV pushes, give blood, and they must have BSN nurses sign off on all patient assessments. Therefore, the hospitals here will only hire BSN degreed nurses.

Her cousin is working as a RN at a local hospital with only a AA degree.

 

[TC1987]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

I feel qualified to expound, LOL, because I started a RN diploma school 24 month program in Jan 2011, completed 12 months of it, and quit.

Executive Summary: Areas with lots of new grad BSRNs and/or a push for Magnet status will mainly only hire new grads who already have a BS RN degree. Rural areas, small hospitals, areas that don't have many local RN programs cranking out new grads are more liberal and still hire diploma RN grads and associate degree grads. It depends on your location.

Long answer:
3 paths to becoming R.N.:
1. diploma school, traditionally 3 years full time. There are few of those, lotsa them are in Pennsylvania, and the non-nursing college course component of them has been beefed up substantially so that it's now equivalent to or greater than the college coursework required by associated degree RN programs.
2. Associate degree college program. It generally also takes 3 years to complete in today's world, because most of the RN degrees have competitive admissions based on a point score ranking, and the prereq classes you must complete to apply usually include A&P I and II, microbiology, might include psych or soc. But it's generally going to take the applicant 2 semesters full time to get the prereqs done, then another 2 years for the degree = 3 years total. Associate degree was created post-WWII or something, to more quickly alleviate a shortage of nurses.
3. BSRN. The 4 year college degree. Contains more college credits in nursing, but also some liberal arts and crap that don't add any any actual RN floor nurse skills.

All three sit for the exact same NCLEX-RN exam. Diploma schools and associate degrees here tend to be the backbreakers, because you have to get so much done in such a short time, and also they run year-round, vs. BSRN is spreading it out longer as well as adding some fluff. What does BSRN bring to the table that the others don't? Generally courses in statistics and public health and nursing informatics that the other programs didn't have time for. Look at all of the online RB to BSN programs, and you can pretty quickly sort that out. http://www.nursing.psu.edu/undergraduate/recommended-academic-plans All of it is online, so far as I know, so that doesn't give the BSRN any leg up on clinicals skills, necessarily. All RN programs are req'd by their state BONs to have so many hours classroom theory, so many hours hands-on clinical, etc. and have a certain % of their grads pass the NCLEX-RN on their first try. Or something like that.

When there was a nursing shortage, anyone with any type of RN education could get hired anywhere as RN. There was no real difference in pay between BSRN and the other two, and if you ask me, there really should not be because all three are sufficient to sit for and pass NCLEX-RN. "Magnet status" is one of the major things driving the push for all nurses in hospitals to be Registered Nurses, and the hospitals in the areas where there is a continual glut of new grads from BSRN programs can say "We only hire BSRN now."

In the more rural areas, like where I am, and for PA state government RN jobs, there is still a lot of work for diploma and associate degree grads, and the grads of certain diploma and ADRN programs are highly sought because they got a lot more actual clinical and hospital hours in their programs than the BSRN college programs got. The diploma school that I attended was in the Pittsburgh area and I don't think there is anyone from my cohort that didn't get job within 4-5 months of graduating.

Imo, what you have to look at is are there still ADRN jobs in your / her area, and just how well-schooled and well-trained are the ADRN grads from your/her local ADRN program. Because, there have been a a couple of colleges actually eliminate their ADRN programs due to lack of clinical sites for their grads. When the local hospitals stopped hiring associate degree RN new grads, they also decided not provide clinical experience for ADRN schools anymore, too. They would only allow BSRN students, and maybe LPN / LVN students, of the hospital still used LPNs. That left colleges no place to send their ADRN students.

I would not worry about the difference in starting pay. People can complete the online BSN program in 12-18 months (I know ppl who have do it that fast), and the employers used to pay for that, too, but are getting stingier about tuition benefits. A RN is not really considered "trained" until he or she has 1-2 years of actual work experience. Travel nursing agencies want a minimum of 2 years. If she can get employed with the associate, then do that. There is nothing stopping her from going on to BSRN after either associate degree or diploma program.

 

[TC1987]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Google "allnurses salary survey" and take a look at the 2013 and 2014 salary surveys. Generally in my region new grad RNs get $22/hr to start. Pittsburgh and Washington, PA are maybe up to $25 or $26/hour to start. New grad LPNs are $15/hr here, and more experienced LPNs in some nursing homes in Beaver, Allegheny, and Washington counties are getting $18 - $21 or $22 /hour.

Her non-nursing BS degree, as a rule, won't fetch a higher salary. It may make her more employable because she has some healthcare training, but don't count on it. Only the BSRN carries any real status with hiring managers. Non-nursing degrees are not valued. Experience as a CNA or patient care tech would be great to have, though, because it's actual hands-on patient care. Floor nursing experience is what they are looking for.

Eta: There is a consensus here that that the ADRN then bridge to BSRB with an online RB to BSRN program is better bang for the buck than the accelerated second degree nursing programs. The second degree programs seem to have fewer applicants, though. I don't thing I could have succeed at a 12 month accelerated program. Someone who already has a lot or medical background, or who is a wiz who just looks at the book or listens to the lecture once and automatically adsorb it may do okay in one. I came from engineering and tech to nursing, and that is 180 degrees polar opposite in thought train and type of reasoning. Plus there is a lot of motherhood and family medicine in nursing programs, and those are things that I never had any interest in and certainly had never studied or experienced. LOL There's a lot of memorization in nursing, whether nurses admit it or not. I think that for many nursing students, it happens transparently. But for me, the only thing I could ace effortlessly was pharma and the dosage calcs.

 

[Autumnovember]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

I feel qualified to expound, LOL, because I started a RN diploma school 24 month program in Jan 2011, completed 12 months of it, and quit.

Executive Summary: Areas with lots of new grad BSRNs and/or a push for magnet status will mainly only hire new grads who already have a BS RN degree. Rural areas, small hospitals, areas that don't have many local RN programs cranking out new grads are more liberal and still hire diploma RN grads and associate degree grads. It depends on your location.

Long answer:
3 paths to becoming R.N.:
1. diploma school, traditionally 3 years full time. There are few of those, lotsa them are in Pennsylvania, and the non-nursing college course component of them has been beefed up substantially so that it's now equivalent to or greater than the college coursework required by associated degree RN programs.
2. Associate degree college program. It generally also takes 3 years to complete in today's world, because most of the RN degrees have competitive admissions based on a point score ranking, and the prereq classes you must complete to apply usually include A&P I and II, microbiology, might include psych or soc. But it's generally going to take the applicant 2 semesters full time to get the prereqs done, then another 2 years for the degree = 3 years total. Associate degree was created post-WWII or something, to more quickly alleviate a shortage of nurses.
3. BSRN. The 4 year college degree. Contains more college credits in nursing, but also some liberal arts and crap that don't add any any actual RN floor nurse skills.

All three sit for the exact same NCLEX-RN exam. Diploma schools and associate degrees here tend to be the backbreakers, because you have to get so much done in such a short time, and also they run year-round, vs. BSRN is spreading it out longer as well as adding some fluff. What does BSRN bring to the table that the others don't? Generally courses in statistics and public health that the other programs don't have time for. Look at all of the online RB to BSN programs, and you can pretty quickly sort that out. http://www.nursing.psu.edu/undergraduate/recommended-academic-plans All of it is online, so far as I know, so that doesn't give the BSRN any leg up on clinicals skills, necessarily. All RN programs are req'd by their state BONs to have so many hours classroom theory, so many hours hands-on clinical, etc. and have a certain % of their grads pass the NCLEX-RN on their first try. Or something like that.

When there was a nursing shortage, anyone with any type of RN education could get hired anywhere as RN. There was no real difference in pay between BSRN and the other two, and if you ask me, there really should not be because all three are sufficient to sit for and pass NCLEX-RN. "Magnet status" is one of the major things driving the push for all nurses in hospitals to be Registered Nurses, and the hospitals in the areas where there is a continual glut of new grads from BSRN programs can say "We only hire BSRN now."

In the more rural areas, like where I am, and for PA state government RN jobs, there is still a lot of work for diploma and associate degree grads, and the grads of certain diploma and ADRN programs are highly sought because they got a lot more actual clinical and hospital hours in their programs than the BSRN college programs got. The diploma school that I attended was in the Pittsburgh area and I don't think there is anyone from my cohort that didn't get job within 4-5 months of graduating.

Imo, what you have to look at is are there still ADRN jobs in your / her area, and just how well-schooled and well-trained are the ADRB grads from your/her local ADRN program. Because, there have been a a couple of colleges actually eliminate their ADRN programs due to lack of clinical sites for their grads. When the local hospitals stopped hiring associate degree RN new grads, they also decided not provide clinical experience for ADRN schools anymore, too. They would only allow BSRN students, and maybe LPN / LVN students, of the hospital still used LPNs.

I would not worry about the difference in starting pay. People can complete the online BSN program in 12-18 months (I know ppl who have do it that fast), and the employers used to pay for that, too, but are getting stingier about tuition benefits. A RN is not really considered "trained" until he or she has 1-2 years of actual work experience. Travel nursing agencies want a minimum of 2 years. If she can get employed with the associate, then do that. There is nothing stopping her from going on to BSRN after either associate degree or diploma program.

Sorry, I have to disagree with what you said about BSN's. BSN programs are heavily based in science and is actually what is considered the main difference between all three. And it DOES add a difference to a nurses skill set when working on a floor. Obviously nursing is a job that you truly learn mostly everything while working but BSN programs are designed for students to understand the pathophysiology of everything thats going on too PRIOR to beginning work. We were drilled and drilled about knowing our patho down pat and being able to properly apply it and in all clinical areas. Diploma nurses are much more clinical based, AA RN's are too. We had many, many LPN and AA nurses in our program and they all agreed that this was the main difference in schooling and program design. That's pretty damn important if you ask me. Especially because some RESIDENTS in med school were many times unable to answer questions asked by the doctors. Hmmmmmmm...........

Where in PA are you specifically talking about regarding diploma schooling? I do not know 1 person who has gone to school for that besides a nurse I work with who did it 30 years ago. That's being phased out and there really is no denying that it is, either. AA nurses are going in that direction too. There is a reason for it and it isn't ONLY because hospitals want to be magnet. As for AA and and diploma programs being the back breakers? Yes, they are, I am SURE that all 3 programs are all back breaking. Getting your bachelors in nursing isn't any easier than any of the other two. At all.

I grew up in a suburb of Philly (40 minutes outside the city) and it was NOT easy to find a job, even as someone with a BSN. If you live anywhere near Philly, I'm sure you're pretty aware of that. We all got jobs eventually but some people did not get jobs for a solid 8 months after graduation. Even the ones with previous nursing experience. It is not an easy job market in some areas.

Going back to school to get a BSN after so and so years is not that easy for a lot of people. Why waste time instead of getting it quickly? His daughter already has a degree which means she can do an accelerated bachelors program and be finished in a little over a year.

I had a group of AA student nurses follow me each week when I was working at a large area hospital and their biggest worry and most questions stemmed from finding a job with their AA degree. Nursing homes around here will hire an AA in a heartbeat but that isn't exactly everyones cup of tea. If you're ok making 29 an hr and working at a nursing home, then you're set with a job for life. Per diem, 32 an hr. After my good friend finished up her BSN with me (was an AA RN) her pay increased significantly.

I worked at a nursing home while I looked for hospital work. I've worked at 2 hospitals and I'm now an Infusion nurse at a private oncology practice. I can tell you, that the two hospitals I worked at required BSN nurses. One magnet, one not. Private practice, BSN required. One hospital demoted their LPN's to nurses aides.

I dont know about DF's daughter but when you've got student loans starting to kick in (1k a month here) starting pay may matter. Even if its a few bucks.

May I ask why you quit your program?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

AN...there are 3 colleges offering nursing program in our area (1 state college and 2 community college) as I understand it they pick names out of a lottery system, so my daughter don't have the choice of attending Sacto. State University for a BSRN degree. She have been applying with all 3 schools during the past 3 yrs, but was never chosen until this past fall.

 

[TC1987]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Sorry, I have to disagree with what you said about BSN's. BSN programs are heavily based in science So was the diploma program -- 28 months total, heavy in sci, and for Nursing I and II had lectures 3-4 days all day and 1 full day clinical and by Nursing 4 was lectures 3 days and clinicals 2 full days and is actually what is considered the main difference between all three. Your info is out of date. And it DOES add a difference to a nurses skill set when working on a floor. Yep. Grads of that diploma program worked their tails off from Nursing I and by end of Nursing I were passing meds, doing glucose, etc., There was no going easy on students. School all day, study & paperwork all night. I never worked 1/2 that hard in any college degree. Obviously nursing is a job that you truly learn mostly everything while working but BSN programs are designed for students to understand the pathophysiology of everything thats going on too PRIOR to beginning work. No difference there. You must be confusing DIPLOMA with LPN, where there is a vast difference! We were drilled and drilled about knowing our patho down pat and being able to properly apply it and in all clinical areas. Diploma nurses are much more clinical based, AA RN's are too. Yep, we were drilled, too. Tied up all your days in either lectures or clinicals, and tied up all your nights in study and paperwork. It's like cramming the 4 years into 2-3, really. These diploma and associate degrees KNOW what employers thought they lacked, and they changed to fill that perceived gap PDQ. Really and truly. We had many, many LPN and AA nurses in our program and they all agreed that this was the main difference in schooling and program design. That's pretty damn important if you ask me. Especially because some RESIDENTS in med school were many times unable to answer questions asked by the doctors. Hmmmmmmm...........

Where in PA are you specifically talking about regarding diploma schooling? I do not know 1 person who has gone to school for that besides a nurse I work with who did it 30 years ago. That's being phased out and there really is no denying that it is, either. AA nurses are going in that direction too. There is a reason for it and it isn't ONLY because hospitals want to be magnet. As for AA and and diploma programs being the back breakers? Yes, they are, I am SURE that all 3 programs are all back breaking. Getting your bachelors in nursing isn't any easier than any of the other two. At all.

I grew up in a suburb of Philly (40 minutes outside the city) and it was NOT easy to find a job, even as someone with a BSN. If you live anywhere near Philly, I'm sure you're pretty aware of that. We all got jobs eventually but some people did not get jobs for a solid 8 months after graduation. Even the ones with previous nursing experience. It is not an easy job market in some areas.

Going back to school to get a BSN after so and so years is not that easy for a lot of people. Why waste time instead of getting it quickly? His daughter already has a degree which means she can do an accelerated bachelors program and be finished in a little over a year.

I had a group of AA student nurses follow me each week when I was working at a large area hospital and their biggest worry and most questions stemmed from finding a job with their AA degree. Nursing homes around here will hire an AA in a heartbeat but that isn't exactly everyones cup of tea. If you're ok making 29 an hr and working at a nursing home, then you're set with a job for life. Per diem, 32 an hr. After my good friend finished up her BSN with me (was an AA RN) her pay increased significantly.

I worked at a nursing home while I looked for hospital work. I've worked at 2 hospitals and I'm now an Infusion nurse at a private oncology practice. I can tell you, that the two hospitals I worked at required BSN nurses. One magnet, one not. Private practice, BSN required. One hospital demoted their LPN's to nurses aides.

I dont know about DF's daughter but when you've got student loans starting to kick in (1k a month here) starting pay may matter. Even if its a few bucks.

I put comments in, above. Where in PA are these schools? Why, in western PA, lol, whic explains why you are not up on the modern diploma schools.
Sharon: Sharon Regional (That one has problems. Lots of dropouts.)
Jameson, New Castle.
The Washington Hospital School of Nursing, Washington, PA
West Penn, Pittsburgh
Mercy, Pittsburgh
Shadyside, Pittsburgh
St. Margaret, Pittsburgh
Reading Hospital also still has a school of nursing, too.

What these diploma schools have done to stay competitive is add to their college coursework, and add patho and all that to their theory, with extra hours of theory lecture. They are not being phased out by any means. Most have 3-4 applicants or more for every seat. Most have some kind of agreement or arrangement with a college that offers BSRN to facilitate their grads getting into a BSRN program, which most start ASAP after graduation. "Bridging" works well for many here, because they do get their RN and employment via either diploma or associate degree school, and then they go on for BSRN while employed.

Here, there probably isn't any significant difference between starting pay for BSRN vs. the others. Washington Hospital paid $25/hr to its diploma school grads who went to work there. I have not heard of any hospitals paying any better than that for BSRN. Maybe Philly and NJ and all pay far higher wages for nurses overall?

The diploma schools here are tough, and are very time consuming. College programs have fewer hours / week of lecture time, and least in the first-year material. The diploma schools are like a fulltime job: You are at that school all day, every day, 5 days per week, sometimes 6am - 4pm, with little time off. Some clinicals are 12hr shifts, with tons paperwork due the next day, also. It was a sheer grind. Took the joy of learning right out of it for me.

But, like I said, some of those grinding diploma schools have a rep for turning out a great finished product who is accustomed to long hours of grinding work, and is already hospital-oriented in full and ready to roll.


You can compare the college coursework between the BS and the associate degree. I did that, in great detail, in 2009-2010 and then again win the past couple of months when I started thinking about going back to a college program. I also have 2 college degrees, and all of the college course work except the nursing courses for the associate degree. None of my diploma school except perhaps nursing I will transfer, because colleges teach units / blocks / module, and that diploma program was arranged like scrambled eggs. haha

 

[NTave]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

I agree that there are plenty of bridge or 3+1 programs so that she can start working and still go to school in the last year. They seem to be cropping up all over the place. In fact, that is what I did 15 years ago, I completed an Associate track in three years, sat for my exam and started working and gaining experience while still going to school to complete my bachelors in 4 years. Back then it was easy enough to be an ASN and get a hospital job, but now the push is for more education for nurses. I work with plenty of ASN nurses, all 5 that are now going back to school, not that our hospital requires it for current employees (new hires with ASN require a contract to get BSN within a tight timeframe), but many surrounding hospitals have notified their nurses to get a BSN by a certain timeframe or they are out of a job. There have also been stipulations that an ASN nurse can not change jobs within the hospital, so there is no chance for advancement without it.
I agree to get an ADN, its usually cheaper through a community college and then use a bridge program. That way it she can take advantage of any tuition reimbursement available through an employer, as its being cut back and phased out of many employers, even though more education is required. A hospital may also fall in line with a grant that allows nurses to get their BSN part paid for. I have heard of several hospitals in my state that have successfully applied for nurse education funding.
Again it really matters on location how soon she will need that BSN.
I wish her luck, nursing school was awful. Being a nurse is much more fun

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

[quote="Autumnovember|

I dont know about DF's daughter but when you've got student loans starting to kick in (1k a month here) starting pay may matter. Even if its a few bucks.

[/quote]
She don't have any student loans b/c mommy and daddy subsidized.

 

[NTave]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Want another older DD? Im back in school, with loans.

 

[Autumnovember]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Sorry, I have to disagree with what you said about BSN's. BSN programs are heavily based in science So was the diploma program -- 28 months total, heavy in sci, and for Nursing I and II had lectures 3-4 days all day and 1 full day clinical and by Nursing 4 was lectures 3 days and clinicals 2 full days and is actually what is considered the main difference between all three. Your info is out of date. And it DOES add a difference to a nurses skill set when working on a floor. Yep. Grads of that diploma program worked their tails off from Nursing I and by end of Nursing I were passing meds, doing glucose, etc., There was no going easy on students. School all day, study & paperwork all night. I never worked 1/2 that hard in any college degree. Obviously nursing is a job that you truly learn mostly everything while working but BSN programs are designed for students to understand the pathophysiology of everything thats going on too PRIOR to beginning work. No difference there. You must be confusing DIPLOMA with LPN, where there is a vast difference! We were drilled and drilled about knowing our patho down pat and being able to properly apply it and in all clinical areas. Diploma nurses are much more clinical based, AA RN's are too. Yep, we were drilled, too. Tied up all your days in either lectures or clinicals, and tied up all your nights in study and paperwork. It's like cramming the 4 years into 2-3, really. These diploma and associate degrees KNOW what employers thought they lacked, and they changed to fill that perceived gap PDQ. Really and truly. We had many, many LPN and AA nurses in our program and they all agreed that this was the main difference in schooling and program design. That's pretty damn important if you ask me. Especially because some RESIDENTS in med school were many times unable to answer questions asked by the doctors. Hmmmmmmm...........

Where in PA are you specifically talking about regarding diploma schooling? I do not know 1 person who has gone to school for that besides a nurse I work with who did it 30 years ago. That's being phased out and there really is no denying that it is, either. AA nurses are going in that direction too. There is a reason for it and it isn't ONLY because hospitals want to be magnet. As for AA and and diploma programs being the back breakers? Yes, they are, I am SURE that all 3 programs are all back breaking. Getting your bachelors in nursing isn't any easier than any of the other two. At all.

I grew up in a suburb of Philly (40 minutes outside the city) and it was NOT easy to find a job, even as someone with a BSN. If you live anywhere near Philly, I'm sure you're pretty aware of that. We all got jobs eventually but some people did not get jobs for a solid 8 months after graduation. Even the ones with previous nursing experience. It is not an easy job market in some areas.

Going back to school to get a BSN after so and so years is not that easy for a lot of people. Why waste time instead of getting it quickly? His daughter already has a degree which means she can do an accelerated bachelors program and be finished in a little over a year.

I had a group of AA student nurses follow me each week when I was working at a large area hospital and their biggest worry and most questions stemmed from finding a job with their AA degree. Nursing homes around here will hire an AA in a heartbeat but that isn't exactly everyones cup of tea. If you're ok making 29 an hr and working at a nursing home, then you're set with a job for life. Per diem, 32 an hr. After my good friend finished up her BSN with me (was an AA RN) her pay increased significantly.

I worked at a nursing home while I looked for hospital work. I've worked at 2 hospitals and I'm now an Infusion nurse at a private oncology practice. I can tell you, that the two hospitals I worked at required BSN nurses. One magnet, one not. Private practice, BSN required. One hospital demoted their LPN's to nurses aides.

I dont know about DF's daughter but when you've got student loans starting to kick in (1k a month here) starting pay may matter. Even if its a few bucks.

I put comments in, above. Where in PA are these schools? Why, in western PA, lol, whic explains why you are not up on the modern diploma schools.
Sharon: Sharon Regional (That one has problems. Lots of dropouts.)
Jameson, New Castle.
The Washington Hospital School of Nursing, Washington, PA
West Penn, Pittsburgh
Mercy, Pittsburgh
Shadyside, Pittsburgh
St. Margaret, Pittsburgh
Reading Hospital also still has a school of nursing, too.

What these diploma schools have done to stay competitive is add to their college coursework, and add patho and all that to their theory, with extra hours of theory lecture. They are not being phased out by any means. Most have 3-4 applicants or more for every seat. Most have some kind of agreement or arrangement with a college that offers BSRN to facilitate their grads getting into a BSRN program, which most start ASAP after graduation. "Bridging" works well for many here, because they do get their RN and employment via either diploma or associate degree school, and then they go on for BSRN while employed.

Here, there probably isn't any significant difference between starting pay for BSRN vs. the others. Washington Hospital paid $25/hr to its diploma school grads who went to work there. I have not heard of any hospitals paying any better than that for BSRN. Maybe Philly and NJ and all pay far higher wages for nurses overall?

The diploma schools here are tough, and are very time consuming. College programs have fewer hours / week of lecture time, and least in the first-year material. The diploma schools are like a fulltime job: You are at that school all day, every day, 5 days per week, sometimes 6am - 4pm, with little time off. Some clinicals are 12hr shifts, with tons paperwork due the next day, also. It was a sheer grind. Took the joy of learning right out of it for me.

But, like I said, some of those grinding diploma schools have a rep for turning out a great finished product who is accustomed to long hours of grinding work, and is already hospital-oriented in full and ready to roll.


You can compare the college coursework between the BS and the associate degree. I did that, in great detail, in 2009-2010 and then again win the past couple of months when I started thinking about going back to a college program. I also have 2 college degrees, and all of the college course work except the nursing courses for the associate degree. None of my diploma school except perhaps nursing I will transfer, because colleges teach units / blocks / module, and that diploma program was arranged like scrambled eggs. haha

If you mean my info is out of date in terms of whats "big" in very suburban areas, you're totally right. I'm actually pretty shocked that they even have diploma schools still (not being rude, just surprised). I grew up next to a major city and I currently live 15 minutes outside of Manhattan. My info is pretty current with how trends are next to major cities. If I'm not mistaken, DF is not located in a super suburban area where diploma schools are actually around. Reading is pretty rural. The diploma program that reading offers would be good for working in their hospital system. In Philly or surrounding suburban areas? Forget it. Diploma programs just aren't marketable in areas that are saturated with bachelor degree nurses hungry for work. So in THIS area, they are phased out. Like I mentioned, the diploma *and* LPN nurses at the hospital I worked out were demoted to nurses aides. They had the option of going for their bachelors but these nurses were all older (nurses for 20+ years) and really were not interested in going back to school. I don't agree with what the hospital did but its a business, like everything else.

I currently have several friends that are working in major Philly hospitals who are BSN prepared nurses and they are making more than 25 an hour. In Manhattan, significantly more but I won't even count Manhattan since the cost of living is insane.

My ABSN program was 5 days a week as well with full days in classes or clinicals. We actually were strongly advised not to work at all during the duration of the program as it was a full time job in itself. It was pretty damn crappy, like you mentioned haha.

Of the diploma and LPN nurses I know, trust me, I know they're damn well trained in the clinical aspects of nursing which is obviously so important but these nurses also got a lot out of our bachelors programs that they did not get out of their diploma programs. I'm not down playing diploma nurses or AA nurses at all, I respect all nurses because we all work really hard, I'm just pointing out that diploma nurses are not something I'd suggest doing if you have any plans at all to work near a major city. At least not Philly, NJ or Manhattan.

 

[Autumnovember]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

AN...there are 3 colleges offering nursing program in our area (1 state college and 2 community college) as I understand it they pick names out of a lottery system, so my daughter don't have the choice of attending Sacto. State University for a BSRN degree. She have been applying with all 3 schools during the past 3 yrs, but was never chosen until this past fall.

I think everyone brought up some really good points.

You and your daughter need to look at the big picture here. Does she want to work while in school? Will she WANT to go back to school is she gets her AA? There's a lot of options, a lot of ways to go and depending on what she wants, you guys can make a good decision together.

 

[JulieN]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

If she has no loans from undergrad, she will now be eligible for Pay as You Earn if she has trouble getting a job that pays enough.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

DF, the wait lists for nursing schools is 2-3 years long.
usually an applicant has to demonstrate an interest having completed some courses prior or doing volunteer work or already working in the field.
like you I'm in California.
no one knows what the future holds for your youngest daughter and where she might live eventually.
when I read she was going for her AA I was somewhat surprised.
even in California that degree in nursing is going to be very limiting.
the world is changing and has changed. the sacramento area is not going to be any different than any other big city.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

DF, the wait lists for nursing schools is 2-3 years long.
usually an applicant has to demonstrate an interest having completed some courses prior or doing volunteer work or already working in the field.
like you I'm in California.
no one knows what the future holds for your youngest daughter and where she might live eventually.
when I read she was going for her AA I was somewhat surprised.
even in California that degree in nursing is going to be very limiting.
the world is changing and has changed. the sacramento area is not going to be any different than any other big city.

I know but what can she do? ...She can't find a job after graduating with a BS degree in Healthcare Administration 3 yrs ago. Well,I guess we just hope for the best.

 

[House Cat]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

DF, the wait lists for nursing schools is 2-3 years long.
usually an applicant has to demonstrate an interest having completed some courses prior or doing volunteer work or already working in the field.
like you I'm in California.
no one knows what the future holds for your youngest daughter and where she might live eventually.
when I read she was going for her AA I was somewhat surprised.
even in California that degree in nursing is going to be very limiting.
the world is changing and has changed. the sacramento area is not going to be any different than any other big city.

I know but what can she do? ...She can't find a job after graduating with a BS degree in Healthcare Administration 3 yrs ago. Well,I guess we just hope for the best.

DF,

We live in the same area. My really good friend worked at one of our major hospitals for 6 years with an ASN before being promoted to nursing manager with the expectation that she get her BSN. She is now doing online classes with the University of Texas, which is a reputable college and it is only costing her around $10,000, instead of the usual $36,000 that comes with the University of Phoenix type school. Many of her colleagues ARE also going for the BSN as well because there will come a time when our area will expect the BSN too.

Everyone knows in this area that only Sac State offers a BSN. The positions at Sac State are highly coveted and very difficult to obtain. My daughter is currently vying for a nursing degree at Sac State and you need perfect grades on your prereqs and prayers...lots and lots of prayers because there are so few positions open and so many applicants.

If you really want to know what is required by our local hospitals, do a job search and see what they put down for desired experience. We have so many hospitals around here, Sutter, Mercy, UC Davis, Kaiser. They know what is coming out of our area's nursing schools. They would have to hire accordingly. It would probably be impossible to expect all of the nurses to have a BSN when two of the area's three colleges are only offering an ASN program. (that is me speculating in a logical manner.)

It is an incredible blessing that she got into nursing school! I think that getting through the school is the first step, from there, she will figure out what she needs to do.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Thanks HC, I'll forward her the information.Her class start at ARC in two weeks.

 

[TC1987]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Responding to AutumNovember's comments: That's why I said look at the job market where she is to see if ADRN is employable at all. And scrutinize the ADRN program's content carefully. There was a discussion on city-data Dec 2012 to current about an accountant thinking of returning to school for RN. Someone discussed California's situation with the lottery system and all. That person said that it's about 2 years to get prereqs done, then it takes years to bubble your point score up to the top to get a seat for associate degree RN school, then it's another 2 years to complete that presuming the student doesn't fail anything and be forced to spend more time repeating it. 5-6 years time tied up to just get an ADRN is crazy to me. Here, it takes about 12 months for prereqs, most people are immediately accepted into a diploma or ADRN program, and then it was anywhere from 16 months to 24 months to complete the RN school. Maybe she wants to consider moving over East here to do RN school.

That person on City-Data also said the unemployment for new grad associate degree RNs there is 46%. I know it's not any 46% here!

AutumNovember is correct that the cities often have a glut of new-grad BSRNs from which to choose, so they don't hire ADRN and diploma grads. I even said that in one of my posts. Pittsburgh is getting to be that way, because there are MANY BSRNs coming out of colleges there. But, the rest of western PA is rural and small town hospitals, and/or economically depressed areas without major universities near. So, they are not going to get many applicants who are BSN because most 4year college grads want to go to an urban area with amenities and universities. Frankly, there are a lot of small towns in western PA where most of the young single female RNs definitely would not relocate to, because they offer no social life for a single woman, and the single men there are poorly educated losers, not marriage material.

Graduating with an ADRN or diploma isn't the end of the line. Like I said, if it gets you a job, you go to work and then complete the BSRN within two years.

 

[canuk-gal]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

HI:

In my profession, I have yet to meet a nurse who said "I wish I didn't have my BScN".

cheers--Sharon

 

[butterfly 17]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

HI DF,
I have my AAS in nursing and I have been working as a nurse for over 13 years.
I have never had a problem getting a job and started working in a specialized area of nursing right after graduating. When I moved down to New Jersey two years ago, I was afraid that I would have a hard time finding a job, but in the end I actually had two choices, both Magnet hospitals. I chose a smaller hospital because it was closer to home, much easier to travel to, offered me a sign on bonus and I wasn't subjected to CIty of Philadelphia city taxes or tolls.


With that said, I am in the process of getting my BSN and I have attended three different colleges towards my degree. All of my classes have been paid for by the hospitals I have worked in, so with the exception of travel expenses, I have been getting my BSN education for free and if I chose to continue with my masters, it will be paid for as well. I have three classes left, but I have been taking my time because I have moved over the years and had kids, etc.

I would highly recommend that your daughter continue her education as she applies for jobs because the majority of hospitals now will only hire BSNs. Even if she doesn't have it when she applies, it looks good that she is in the process of getting it.

The pay difference is very minimal between an AA and a BA. At the hospital I work in, it is $900 a year. That's about 50 cents more per hour. When I worked in NY, the difference was $1900 a year. Again, about $1 more per hour.

The benefit of getting an AA first, is that your daughter can work right away, start getting health benefits and a decent salary and have the hospital she works for pay for her to get her BSN. That's two years of free education.

For example-
At my old hospital in Brooklyn, NY, an AA salary started at $73k and a BA $75K. This was two years ago, so I am sure salaries have gone up a little.
And this is also a 3 day 12 hour shift hospital. So, there is plenty of time to pick up a 4th day as overtime and still have 3 days off a week.
That's not including night differential, which is another 10%, 4 weeks of paid vacation (6 after 5 years), 2 weeks of sick time and 10 paid holidays. Tuition reimbursement was $9500/year after 6 months of employment and they had a contract with Downstate so that BA/MSN programs were being taught at the hospital. Experience differential was another $1k per year with a cap at $25K.

So basically, if I started in 2014 in an AA program and my friend starts in a BA program at the same time, by 2018, I would have earned $148K, plus have two years of experience in my pocket, plus be almost done with my BA (if I had started my BA immediately after starting working) which the hospital would have paid for anyway.
By 2018, I will also be making the same amount of money as my friend because I would have earned $2K for the two years of experience I accrued while working.
My friend would have no experience and most likely student loans for the two years she was in school while I was working.

As everyone else mentioned, this is all relevant to where you live, etc. But in all my years of nursing, I have still not met one person with an AA or Diploma or BA/BS, not get a job.

Even when I was still in NY, both my SIL graduated from nursing school and a very good neighbor, both with AA's, and they did have a hard time for a few months, but then afterwards, they did get jobs.

The hospital I work at is a Magnet hospital and we just recently got re"Magnetized" and I know that they are still hiring nurses with AAs.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

B 17
Thanks for the information.

 

[kathley]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Sorry, I have to disagree with what you said about BSN's. BSN programs are heavily based in science So was the diploma program -- 28 months total, heavy in sci, and for Nursing I and II had lectures 3-4 days all day and 1 full day clinical and by Nursing 4 was lectures 3 days and clinicals 2 full days and is actually what is considered the main difference between all three. Your info is out of date. And it DOES add a difference to a nurses skill set when working on a floor. Yep. Grads of that diploma program worked their tails off from Nursing I and by end of Nursing I were passing meds, doing glucose, etc., There was no going easy on students. School all day, study & paperwork all night. I never worked 1/2 that hard in any college degree. Obviously nursing is a job that you truly learn mostly everything while working but BSN programs are designed for students to understand the pathophysiology of everything thats going on too PRIOR to beginning work. No difference there. You must be confusing DIPLOMA with LPN, where there is a vast difference! We were drilled and drilled about knowing our patho down pat and being able to properly apply it and in all clinical areas. Diploma nurses are much more clinical based, AA RN's are too. Yep, we were drilled, too. Tied up all your days in either lectures or clinicals, and tied up all your nights in study and paperwork. It's like cramming the 4 years into 2-3, really. These diploma and associate degrees KNOW what employers thought they lacked, and they changed to fill that perceived gap PDQ. Really and truly. We had many, many LPN and AA nurses in our program and they all agreed that this was the main difference in schooling and program design. That's pretty damn important if you ask me. Especially because some RESIDENTS in med school were many times unable to answer questions asked by the doctors. Hmmmmmmm...........

Where in PA are you specifically talking about regarding diploma schooling? I do not know 1 person who has gone to school for that besides a nurse I work with who did it 30 years ago. That's being phased out and there really is no denying that it is, either. AA nurses are going in that direction too. There is a reason for it and it isn't ONLY because hospitals want to be magnet. As for AA and and diploma programs being the back breakers? Yes, they are, I am SURE that all 3 programs are all back breaking. Getting your bachelors in nursing isn't any easier than any of the other two. At all.

I grew up in a suburb of Philly (40 minutes outside the city) and it was NOT easy to find a job, even as someone with a BSN. If you live anywhere near Philly, I'm sure you're pretty aware of that. We all got jobs eventually but some people did not get jobs for a solid 8 months after graduation. Even the ones with previous nursing experience. It is not an easy job market in some areas.

Going back to school to get a BSN after so and so years is not that easy for a lot of people. Why waste time instead of getting it quickly? His daughter already has a degree which means she can do an accelerated bachelors program and be finished in a little over a year.

I had a group of AA student nurses follow me each week when I was working at a large area hospital and their biggest worry and most questions stemmed from finding a job with their AA degree. Nursing homes around here will hire an AA in a heartbeat but that isn't exactly everyones cup of tea. If you're ok making 29 an hr and working at a nursing home, then you're set with a job for life. Per diem, 32 an hr. After my good friend finished up her BSN with me (was an AA RN) her pay increased significantly.

I worked at a nursing home while I looked for hospital work. I've worked at 2 hospitals and I'm now an Infusion nurse at a private oncology practice. I can tell you, that the two hospitals I worked at required BSN nurses. One magnet, one not. Private practice, BSN required. One hospital demoted their LPN's to nurses aides.

I dont know about DF's daughter but when you've got student loans starting to kick in (1k a month here) starting pay may matter. Even if its a few bucks.

I put comments in, above. Where in PA are these schools? Why, in western PA, lol, whic explains why you are not up on the modern diploma schools.
Sharon: Sharon Regional (That one has problems. Lots of dropouts.)
Jameson, New Castle.
The Washington Hospital School of Nursing, Washington, PA
West Penn, Pittsburgh
Mercy, Pittsburgh
Shadyside, Pittsburgh
St. Margaret, Pittsburgh
Reading Hospital also still has a school of nursing, too.

What these diploma schools have done to stay competitive is add to their college coursework, and add patho and all that to their theory, with extra hours of theory lecture. They are not being phased out by any means. Most have 3-4 applicants or more for every seat. Most have some kind of agreement or arrangement with a college that offers BSRN to facilitate their grads getting into a BSRN program, which most start ASAP after graduation. "Bridging" works well for many here, because they do get their RN and employment via either diploma or associate degree school, and then they go on for BSRN while employed.

Here, there probably isn't any significant difference between starting pay for BSRN vs. the others. Washington Hospital paid $25/hr to its diploma school grads who went to work there. I have not heard of any hospitals paying any better than that for BSRN. Maybe Philly and NJ and all pay far higher wages for nurses overall?

The diploma schools here are tough, and are very time consuming. College programs have fewer hours / week of lecture time, and least in the first-year material. The diploma schools are like a fulltime job: You are at that school all day, every day, 5 days per week, sometimes 6am - 4pm, with little time off. Some clinicals are 12hr shifts, with tons paperwork due the next day, also. It was a sheer grind. Took the joy of learning right out of it for me.

But, like I said, some of those grinding diploma schools have a rep for turning out a great finished product who is accustomed to long hours of grinding work, and is already hospital-oriented in full and ready to roll.


You can compare the college coursework between the BS and the associate degree. I did that, in great detail, in 2009-2010 and then again win the past couple of months when I started thinking about going back to a college program. I also have 2 college degrees, and all of the college course work except the nursing courses for the associate degree. None of my diploma school except perhaps nursing I will transfer, because colleges teach units / blocks / module, and that diploma program was arranged like scrambled eggs. haha

If you mean my info is out of date in terms of whats "big" in very suburban areas, you're totally right. I'm actually pretty shocked that they even have diploma schools still (not being rude, just surprised). I grew up next to a major city and I currently live 15 minutes outside of Manhattan. My info is pretty current with how trends are next to major cities. If I'm not mistaken, DF is not located in a super suburban area where diploma schools are actually around. Reading is pretty rural. The diploma program that reading offers would be good for working in their hospital system. In Philly or surrounding suburban areas? Forget it. Diploma programs just aren't marketable in areas that are saturated with bachelor degree nurses hungry for work. So in THIS area, they are phased out. Like I mentioned, the diploma *and* LPN nurses at the hospital I worked out were demoted to nurses aides. They had the option of going for their bachelors but these nurses were all older (nurses for 20+ years) and really were not interested in going back to school. I don't agree with what the hospital did but its a business, like everything else.

I currently have several friends that are working in major Philly hospitals who are BSN prepared nurses and they are making more than 25 an hour. In Manhattan, significantly more but I won't even count Manhattan since the cost of living is insane.

My ABSN program was 5 days a week as well with full days in classes or clinicals. We actually were strongly advised not to work at all during the duration of the program as it was a full time job in itself. It was pretty damn crappy, like you mentioned haha.

Of the diploma and LPN nurses I know, trust me, I know they're damn well trained in the clinical aspects of nursing which is obviously so important but these nurses also got a lot out of our bachelors programs that they did not get out of their diploma programs. I'm not down playing diploma nurses or AA nurses at all, I respect all nurses because we all work really hard, I'm just pointing out that diploma nurses are not something I'd suggest doing if you have any plans at all to work near a major city. At least not Philly, NJ or Manhattan.

+1

Also, another dimension to consider, (as my young BSN daughter pointed out to me), is that my daughter is looking to continue with more schooling and eventually getting her Doctorate degree in nursing.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

while DF's daughter is currently in a very large area known as Sacramento but encompassing many smaller communities and includes as well veteran services, I think it would do her well to consider that one day she may decide to leave the safety net that DF provides and live elsewhere. also, she might marry a man that lives elsewhere.

the world is turning, more emphasis on degrees. those with lesser degrees are left in the dust. experience in so many fields is appreciated but when a resume is turned in, well, if the proper degree isn't there the person is not interviewed. this will happen in nursing as well.

having said that, given the aging boomer population and increase for needed medical services she can probably get by on an AA but will definitely need to upgrade that degree.

 

[butterfly 17]

Re: What is the difference b/t an AA and BA degree in nursin

Another thing I should mention is that many hospitals will pay more for a nurse being certified than having her BA.

The hospital I worked in, in Brooklyn, paid $1900 for a BA, but if you were certified, you received $3750 more.
You can only be certified after having about two years of experience (2000 hours) in a speciality of nursing. This can be oncology, NICU, geriatrics, med surg, L&D etc.

You study, take the exam and pass.

There are also many ways to increase your income. There are different levels of nursing, senior staff nurses (which required two years of experience and some other stuff), etc.

I am certified but I never bothered with the other stuff because with four kids at home, I'm already busy.

I enjoy my new job, but miss my former job bc it was a lot busier than where I am now, but I can't complain.
I work three nights a week and go to school part time online, so I have plenty of time for my kids and their activities.

I have one friend who's husband used to rub it in my face that I only had my AA in nursing while his wife went back to NYU and did their accelerated BS to RN program.

Well, yes, she has her BSN, but she also owes $80k in loans.

From my experience, having a Bachelors in Liberal Arts, an Associates in Nursing and now three classes away from my BSN, my AA was the hardest program I have ever taken. I took every test thinking I would fail.
Clinicals were grueling and I even used to come home crying, the program was so competitive. I look back now and don't ever want to repeat that again.
We started off with 120 students and when we graduated we only had 48.
But, every one of us passed our boards on our first try.

The classes I have been taking for my BA have had very little impact with my nursing practice- Nursing Leadership, Statistics, Nursing informatics, Health Promotion, Statistics, etc. some of them I haven't even had to open a book for.

I could have gotten my Bachelors years ago if I knew it was going to be so easy. I was afraid it was going to be like getting my AA.

DF, your daughter will do what's right for her.