What is key factors in pricing by dealers in carbon?

[drruby]

I've notice a few dealers with lots of common carbon (diamonds) for sale.

Some are exact sized stones with the exact same GIA cert.

Example

1.00 Carat Round
Natural Diamond
GIA cert #
Cut Excellent
Color D
Clarity IF or whatever

So exact same carat size, same GIA cert grade, same cut, same color and same clarity

I identical 4C's, carat, cut, color and clarity, yet huge asking price swings and they're from the same dealers.

Now I can look at a GIA cert and figure out the numbers, as to size and depth and such, but it seems the stones are almost identical and yet a dealer with have a few at almost 50% of what the same grades are worth.

So am I missing something in GIA certs to not understand why dealers have almost identical stones as to the 4C's and the prices are all over the place.

Once you get into high grade colors and clarity with weight, the stones are all stunning.

So other than a dealer needing some cash and in his opinion these are his worst of top graded stones, so they're priced to move.

Or is there something else in a GIA cert that can explain such huge pricing variations by same dealer, same 4C's.

Thanks

 

[craiguk]

Do you have any hard examples to show? May just help people to point out the differences. And are you comparing branded stones to generic stones?

 

[drruby]

Just run a simple check on this site

1.00 carat
GIA cert
X color
Y clarity
Z cut grade
Round

Instantly you see a few dealers all with exact match stones certed by GIA

Let's say the low stones are 5K by dealer 1 and yet he has same exact 4C's at 7500 and maybe 10K

Diamonds got 'brands' now?

What is that?

I know GIA is surface carving GIA and cert number and a dealer logo if they want

Is that what you mean? As to diamond Brand?

Anyway, if you search for an exact sized common stone in almost any color and clarity and cut grade, you find quite a few dealers all with identical certs as to the 4C's and yet 100% price swings.

So without saying look at this dealer or that dealer, pretty much any dealer with stones on this site's database have stones in the 1 carat range with what I would call identical 4C GIA reports and yet huge price variances in what the dealer is asking.

 

[yssie]

Just run a simple check on this site

1.00 carat
GIA cert
X color
Y clarity
Z cut grade
Round

Instantly you see a few dealers all with exact match stones certed by GIA

Let's say the low stones are 5K by dealer 1 and yet he has same exact 4C's at 7500 and maybe 10K

Diamonds got 'brands' now?

What is that?

I know GIA is surface carving GIA and cert number and a dealer logo if they want

Is that what you mean? As to diamond Brand?

Anyway, if you search for an exact sized common stone in almost any color and clarity and cut grade, you find quite a few dealers all with identical certs as to the 4C's and yet 100% price swings.

So without saying look at this dealer or that dealer, pretty much any dealer with stones on this site's database have stones in the 1 carat range with what I would call identical 4C GIA reports and yet huge price variances in what the dealer is asking.

Are the listings for exactly the same stone or not?
Not what you would call identical 4C GIA reports - are they the same stone with the same report number?

 

[iLander]

This guy has been annoying us in Colored Stones for a while.

Feel free to ignore him, I think he's a troll with no actual point.

DRRUBY heres your answer, let's pretend that your premise is right; SOME dealers want to make more profit.

Big deal.

I have, in the past, found the exact same stone on the diamond search (not an in-house stone, obviously, virtual inventory) and the price has varied as much as $2000 from one seller to another.

Again, big deal. :roll eyes:

Oh, and it's not "100% price swings", that's unsubstantiated nonsense that you pulled out of your . . . hat. The examples I have seen are a variation of less than 10% of the stone's cost.

 

[drruby]

How this forum allows you to call me names is amazing.

I gave my opinion on rubies which I am considered by many to be an EXPERT on.

As to the question is it the same stone?

No different cert report numbers

Yet the 4C's are IDENTICAL and yes some have 100% swings in prices.

So if you start to lookup 1 Carat stones here you see

Lots of stones, and many dealers have the same exact 4C's

Identical
C carat 1.00
C color (D to K depending on what you are looking for)
C cut (usually X)
C clarity (the whole spectrum VVS to I)

So as I'm reading the numbers I see properly cut stones no way off depth info, the same dealer, the same cert company GIA the same cut, the same color and the same clarity.

Yet I see stones by the same dealers listed say 5000 and another with different report number at 7500 and even 10K range.

So the stones are different since they have different cert numbers, but the so-called 4C's are identical.

Just look up on this site

1.00 carat
any color you want
any clarity you want
X or VG cut
Round

you get lots of stones all with different cert numbers and the price ranges are literally 50% to 100% spread.

What is 5K can be 7500 and even 10K

For exact same 4C's from GIA and in some cases a dealer has multiple stones in the search for matching 4C's on different cert numbers.

So what am I missing about Carbon and GIA 4C's, I think the pricing should be tighter unless there's something on GIA reports I'm not reading right.

EDUCATE ME PLEASE

I know rubies very well and I did some carbon related stuff many moons ago, but today these price swings on matching 4C numbers is something I can't explain logically.

Sure a dealer wants to sell 1 STONE FAST for cash, okay I get it, it's a dump price but then the same dealer has stones 50% higher and then 100% higher same 4C's.

How do you justify that.

It's like going to a car dealer, 2012 Rolls both with 5K miles, this one is 250K and this one is 500K.

Why?

Same year
Same model
Same miles

Dealer pulls out report this carfax says major accident car completely redone, ok ACCIDENT explains the difference.

But these are GIA graded stones, exact identical 4 C's

And yet 50% to 100% price swings same dealer?

Can anyone explain what on a GIA report can justify such a swing so I can look again at reports and see if that is there.

I'm looking at reports and they are IDENTICAL in 4C's, different report numbers, but literally exact 4C's match.

 

[gr8leo87]

Location of inclusions. Visible to naked eye?
Body tint color. Grey, brown, mix, green etc.
Combination of proportions. 62 depth with 60 table: more discount. 62 with 55 table: less discount.
Cut precision within Ex range. (hearts and arrows?)
Crown and Pav angles.

 

[gr8leo87]

And that list is not exhaustive.

 

[drruby]

Location of inclusions. Visible to naked eye?
Body tint color. Grey, brown, mix, green etc.
Combination of proportions. 62 depth with 60 table: more discount. 62 with 55 table: less discount.
Cut precision within Ex range. (hearts and arrows?)
Crown and Pav angles.

The stuff I'm looking at is mostly FL/IF/VVS level

So no inclusions to eye zero chance of that

I'm aware of the math in carbon, but most are X range of cut grades

So maybe I need to look at the numbers more, I thought X was usually a very nary proportion range.

I thought the hearts/arrows only applied to Ideal?

Like I said it's been over 30 years since I looked seriously at carbon.

So would you agree that an IF with X cut at say 1.00 carat with D shouldn't have an issue with proportions?

Or is X cut that loose with GIA to account for the huge variance in prices?

Or is it just dealers needing cash when we have X cut with high color and clarity?

Also, is hearts and arrow only Ideal or are they now trying to say all cuts have HA?

 

[gr8leo87]

GIA doesn't have Ideal cut grades. And hearts and arrows can be in grades other than Excellent. Hearts and arrows among others is a determinant of Cut precision. And a precision cut stone does bear higher prices.

I'll try to address factors influencing prices in D IF. First and foremost is the Cut within the Excellent range. Yes prices can differ greatly just because of the cut whether or not hearts and arrows. A deeper stone within the Ex range will come with higher discounts. Also the origin of rough also influence prices. A Canada mark diamond is expensive. These two factors alone are enough to make price differences visible.

Other factors could be liquidity crunch at the sellers end. Ageing stock. And future economic indicators. Now expectations can be different at different mind sets.

 

[AdaBeta27]

Not to mention, only some small percentage of diamonds are cut for optimal beauty and performance. Others are cut to maximize ct. weight, or make most profitable use of a particular piece of rough or leftover rough. Cutters have different goals in mind for particular pieces of rough. Some of those diamonds you're comparing could even be older cuts or damaged diamonds that were recut to repair or "tweak" them, and as such, they might not be superideal performers by modern standards. Some diamonds just wind up being "prettier" than others. I've been on PS for what, 10 years? And all along, the vendors and appraisers on here have cautioned consumers that very small details can have a large difference in the value and pricing of diamonds. And that GIA 3x is a broader range than AGS 000, and that there are some GIA 3x that most of the dealers on here would never recommend because they are poor performers.

With all of the myriad combinations of crown & pavilion angles, and symmetry, and faceting, and minor facets, and polish, and variations in diamond crystals, you'd really have to look far beyond the traditional 4Cs to find two "equal" diamonds. And in the end, diamonds have to be seen, so if there's a large price difference, then someone with more expertise than you has seen what's causing some to be priced differently from others. lol

Aside from that, not all vendors have the same markups or overhead. Not all have actual storefronts. Some offer more "free" services, and / or more liberal buyback and upgrade policies, and some offer none of that. Some have in-house stones, some are just drop shippers.

 

[Karl_K]

There is a lot of dirty data in the database because there is a lot of dirty data in the databases it is based on.
This is more visible in the less common combinations.
dirty data == geek speak for old, outdated or incorrect data.
If you actually tried to pull those diamonds on the low price end you would find many are not available at that price if they were available at all.
With the way prices have been going lately it might happen on a few on the high end of the price range.

 

[drruby]

then someone with more expertise than you has seen what's causing some to be priced differently from others. lol

All I know about IF's and FL's are 25 years ago I had 30 IF's and 5 FL's along with 3200 ounces of gold.

I dumped the carbon and kept the gold.

I'm not an 'expert' but from what I used to understand about carbon was IF's were a commodity.

Now I'm seeing a huge spread in IF's and VVS1 and no one can explain it, usually at that level of grade you have X cuts mostly, so there is not great variance in 'cut' X is X and D is D and IF is IF.

Plus what I'm seeing is the same dealers with the big spread, you click the link and you go to the site it doesn't say no available as DD suggested, a few dealers have links to GIA samples no certs, so maybe drop shippers. Others have reports and it is all new certs, so modern cuts and whatever.

I just don't see how you can have that huge of a variance in IF, that's supposed to be the staple.

So

1 Ct. Round Brilliant Cut
D Color
IF Clarity
X

How can you see the same dealer with the same level of stone and have a big variance in price.

Ok, so some are selling just above wholesale and others are high retail, but IF's are supposed to like Gold a set price.

It's like walking into a gold exchange and seeing

Well this is 1oz of .9999 Gold it's 600 and the next guy has it at spot 1100 and the next guy has well we want 1500

It's .999 Gold it should be close to spot

Now the same with 'standard' in carbon, 1 Ct IF's D X

Just lookup on this site and see the spread, it's not old cuts it's not off measurements

It's
1.00 CT
D
IF
X
Round

 

[pyramid]

adabeta answered this question above ...different business models and overheads. Sometimes a stone is bought secondhand for little and resold for much and same with trade ins if bought for original price and resold at a higher one.

 

[drruby]

Obviously none of you have searched the DB for anything serious.

Here is the results for

1.00 to 1.00 CT
Round
D
IF

It pulls up 74 diamonds

Now sort by SOURCE that is dealer

The first guy who I won't name has 1/3 of the IF's a nice haul IMO

So his 24 IF's are mostly in the X cut range

So it's ONE DEALER with 24 IF's

His range is 12K to 21K with the miscut lopsided 21k being a VG cut and not X

He won't show you GIA he wants your info

So the same dealer with identical stones

1.00 CT
D
IF
X cut

and the variance is 12K to 21K

now EXPLAIN that to me

It's not different dealers have different models
different dealers have no overhead
different dealers are drop shippers

33% of the IF's in the DB on this site are the same guy and the range for pretty much identical stones is 12K to 21K

Now PLEASE explain that to me

You can't

Now the next dealer has 27 of the IF's and his spread is 12K to 18K

Again a huge spread with X cuts being most of his inventory

Not as bad as dealer one but a huge spread that 'cut' can't justify

Now the next guy has 14 IF's and he has some dogs G cut

But his X cut go from 12K to 25K

You have a few minor players in the IF's

So it's 3 big dealers and they have a pretty common commodity with the same X cut grades and wild variations in prices

It just doesn't look right to me

 

[VRBeauty]

Now PLEASE explain that to me

You can't

You're right, I can't. Then again, it's not my variation to explain. Others have tried to explain some of the factors that might go into the differences... none of us has any way of knowing how much contributes to what difference, or whether there are other factors that come into play.

The dealers don't have to explain their pricing models.

Macroeconomic theory holds that in a perfect world, all else being equal, everybody would charge pretty much the same price for the same commodity because consumers have perfect knowledge, and can and will select the least costly option in all cases. But then one player would find a way to charge less for that commodity, and all buyers would flock to her, and that person would have a monopoly...and, having driven all other vendors out of the marketplace, could increase prices with impunity. Perhaps we should be grateful this is not a perfect world - and that diamond marketplace is not amazon.com.

Even assuming that all of the prices you're looking at are real prices (and BTW we've had more than a few buyers discover that some virtual prices are "out of date," and that some virtual stones should no longer be in the database) the fluctuation itself would argue for a non-conspiring marketplace, since an effective conspiracy would result in the loss of effective choice for consumers - i.e., identical stones would be priced the same from vendor to vendor.

PS tries to give consumers tools that will allow them to find the best value for their needs. The ability to easily compare prices among vendors is one of those tools, as are tools for looking beyond the X's to evaluate the performance characteristics of various stones. Other factors come into play that don't show up in the "ratings:" individual dealers' trade-up etc. policies, the range of settings they carry (since most consumers probably prefer to purchase the stone and setting from the same place) whether the vendor has pre-selected some diamonds into a "premium" line (which case the consumer is paying more for greater certainty), and other services that help consumers compare individual stones and visualize them in specific settings. And as cinnamonstick's recent threads point out, there are variations in how individual diamonds perform even within a give cut or color grade.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="iLander This guy has been annoying us in Colored Stones for a while.

[/quote]


How???.. he is a new member with about 150 posts.

 

[decisively_unsure]

The key factors are how much the dealers want to charge, and how much they can charge. Simple. If you go to Bond Street in London dealers can charge double and over to Hatton Garden dealers.

 

[Sphene]

Anyone who is an expert in rubies would now the same rules for pricing apply to both rubies and diamonds

That is IF you buy the product from different sources at different times and the commodities market is at different levels you get different prices hence the product will be sold at different prices not rocket science is it

That goes for any product potatoes wheat oranges etc

Location of business - staff wages - level of service received - transport of product to from store to from the customer

The list is endless and they all have an impact on the final price you pay

Basically are you talking drivel or are we all missing your point

 

[Niel]

[quote="iLander This guy has been annoying us in Colored Stones for a while.

How???.. he is a new member with about 150 posts.[/quote]

DF, you're missing the fun over there. Some think it's another old Dr. come back from the dead.

 

[craiguk]

Dr Ruby would do well to read this old post which may also help him to understand the pricing of different vendors. John Pollard's response is well worth the read..

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/[/URL]

 

[AdaBeta27]

Dr Ruby would do well to read this old post which may also help him to understand the pricing of different vendors. John Pollard's response is well worth the read..

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/best-online-diamond-vendors.197395/[/URL]

That's an excellent post and thread. "Issues beyond the report" or beyond the 4Cs were exactly what I referred to in my post, regarding finding 2 EQUAL diamonds to actually compare. What appears equal at first glance is not necessarily equal at all, when you start examining things closely. Cutters and vendors know what they have, and there are reasons for some stones being valued higher than others.

There are also valid reasons for buying a stone that is good enough for you but might be seen as somehow "deficient" by someone else. Rarity is part of what prices some diamond higher, too. But not all buyers care about that. I am happy with well chosen SI2 and even I1, and not 100% eyclean under all conditions. But most engagement stone buyers would definitely not be.

 

[drruby]

Okay I found the answer on my own

I actually have bought FL over the years, and I may be doing it again, since to me if you do carbon the only thing you want is

1 ct or 2 ct
D
X
FL

And there should be no big variance in price from ONE DEALER

Now the problem I was having with so many IF and FL stones on the search here is most of them are from a couple of 'dealers'.

So I did some research on that dealer and then I realized what they are.

One of them is indeed a major player in 'online' carbon E rings, supposedly the largest E ring seller online there is

I believe one article said they went 'public'

Well their company doesn't have stock, it's a NETWORK of dealers that gave them the exclusive right to sell their listings ONLINE

So without that INFO I found myself I see the same couple of dealers with all the high end stones and see a huge spread, IF it was one dealer with REAL INVENTORY that spread could not be there, it makes the company look BAD to a guy like me that views FL and IF as a commodity to invest in.

So now I see what it is, it's a network of many dealers and of course prices vary due to many outside factors that have nothing to do with stone quality as some suggest at the highest levels of carbon

IF is IF
FL is FL

It's either D and 1 ct or 2 ct and X cut or it isn't

So all the nonsense some put forth to explain why ONE COMPANY would have such a large spread wasn't factual, but one person did put forth DROP SHIPPER

Nothing wrong with that companies model IMO

They actually look at carbon as I do, only I don't look below D IF and the right sizes 1 or 2 ct with only X cuts

A stone is or isn't that level

Once you meet that level in a carbon 1 ct or 2 ct you have a commodity

Dealers with the need for that stone or investors that want that level of stone will PAY X

To have many dealers all with this high level and very rare type of stone under the umbrella of one company that is actually a public company is a great thing

That means when I wire them 100K to swoop up a bunch of IF's or FL's I know they get delivered since if they don't it's a public company I can tag easily in court

So many thinks for offering opinions and kudos to the guy saying DROP SHIPPING

Now I know what the top players are and I feel confident they can deliver what I want

So if this tread helps anyone else that has an IQ over a vegetable, this is YOUR ANSWER

 

[craiguk]

So, if i've managed to translate your post correctly, you're saying that you've realised that there's a difference between the prices set between those companies who run a virtual inventory list and those who have their own in-house stock....

This being the case you'll find that the post I referenced above actually explained the exact same thing (i.e. why vendors have different pricing structures for what would appear to the general consumer to be a similar stone). Did you read it?

 

[Sphene]

Very interested to see what you buy now you understand who the main dealers are with your $100000 plus budget lol

 

[chrono]

Very interested to see what you buy now you understand who the main dealers are lol

He's also selling off all his coloured stones too.

 

[Sphene]

Where is he selling pls I would love to puruse

 

[drruby]

So, if i've managed to translate your post correctly, you're saying that you've realised that there's a difference between the prices set between those companies who run a virtual inventory list and those who have their own in-house stock....

This being the case you'll find that the post I referenced above actually explained the exact same thing (i.e. why vendors have different pricing structures for what would appear to the general consumer to be a similar stone). Did you read it?

I commented in that thread before I read you saying look there

Now my opinion on BLUE NILE is in both

the answer was their biz model, no inventory, a drop shipper

and that model with no photos of diamonds proved to be what the public wanted

the public buys PAPER as most diamond sellers have told me ad nauseum the past few weeks

now that I see the BN diamonds are from a vast network of dealers that explains the variance in a commodity that SHOULD HAVE NO VARIANCE if they were actual inventory items of BN

So BN is a network not a 'dealer' perse, they hold no inventory that's why no certs and no pics on their site

and in HIGH GRADES, it's a great model

 

[drruby]

Very interested to see what you buy now you understand who the main dealers are with your $100000 plus budget lol

100K would be a small buy for me

Last time I took a position in carbon it was 30 IF's

It was a minor amount to me 25 years ago

But for the project 100K would be a buy of ok IF's to test a source

that source is a public company so if they can deliver IF's we will probably be buying many

another guy I have known for years is a major player on the net with a huge network of sites

so he's interested in this kids carbon model

so he has a lot of SM pop, literally any finance topic in the world he controls today

so between him, me and this kids new model

It could be a live project very soon so I have to stop talking about it

enough said, I got my answer to this thread and it can be CLOSED

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Very interested to see what you buy now you understand who the main dealers are with your $100000 plus budget lol

100K would be a small buy for me

Last time I took a position in carbon it was 30 IF's

It was a minor amount to me 25 years ago

But for the project 100K would be a buy of ok IF's to test a source

that source is a public company so if they can deliver IF's we will probably be buying many

another guy I have known for years is a major player on the net with a huge network of sites

so he's interested in this kids carbon model

so he has a lot of SM pop, literally any finance topic in the world he controls today

so between him, me and this kids new model

It could be a live project very soon so I have to stop talking about it

enough said, I got my answer to this thread and it can be CLOSED

What a relief.