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What happened to taking personal responsibility?

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by GliderPoss, Jun 17, 2014.

  1. GliderPoss
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    by GliderPoss » Jun 17, 2014
    I realise this may be an unpopular post but it's more about the moral of the story ok? :read:

    I was listening to the news on the radio on my way home last night when I heard an extraordinary story about how a group of asylum seekers is now suing the Australian goverment for money compensation. Essentially last year a group travelled illegally by boat to Christmas Island. There was bad weather and the boat was not safe or sea-worthy. It was dashed against a reef near the island whilst trying to land. Sadly many people lost their lives despite desperate efforts by locals to rescue them, even risking their own lives in the process. Whilst I appreciate they were probably fleeing their country for a particular reason (war, famine, economic reasons etc) they still chose of their own free will to make a dangerous ILLEGAL trip here in a crappy leaky boat with an unqualified "captain" with no lifeboats/life vests etc. The worst case senario happened and people died UNNECESSARILY.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-...ue-over-2010-christmas-island-tragedy/5528270 http://www.news.com.au/national/abb...christmas-island/story-fncynjr2-1226956541457

    This lack of personal responsibility seems to extend in many other areas of life as well - I constantly hear of stories of people blaming/suing for whatever when clearly the fault/issue was their own. A woman recently died of an illegal drug overdose whilst in jail - she chose to illegally gain hard drugs and take them of her own free will yet somehow this is the government's fault? Do people just see dollar signs in this situation? :roll:

    I fail to see if YOU choose to something ILLEGAL and it goes wrong - how is it someone elses fault? Tell me why I should pay you for this terrible failure in judgement? :angryfire: Am I the only who feels that an ever increasing litigous society is responsible for people taking LESS personal responsibility than ever?
     
    


    


  2. Dancing Fire
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    by Dancing Fire » Jun 17, 2014
    Of course it is always easier to blame everything on society then yourself.
     
  3. Indylady
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    by Indylady » Jun 17, 2014
    The suit says that it was the fault of the government for failing to have a proper lookout or rescue service. I think the question is: would the government be at fault, or otherwise liable, if the people on the boat had been Australian? Are Australians on the sea safe in that area?
     
  4. packrat
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    by packrat » Jun 17, 2014
    Everyone's a victim. That's where we are now. Nobody is ever at fault, no matter what. Everyone gets a ribbon. Nobody loses and everyone wins everything all the time, even if you don't participate. Cuz that's how real life is. It's everyone's duty by default, to take care of everyone else all the time, no matter their choices.
     
    


    


  5. monarch64
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    by monarch64 » Jun 17, 2014
    Yeah, I have to agree. I hate it, though.

    People seem to find out after the fact. Well, I call bullshit. Know your rights going into any situation where you sign your name and your rights away. This is reality. Legal, cold, hard, reality. Marriage, military, credit,etc.

    I'm totally sick of misinformed humans saying "I wasn't told about this up front." Read the fine print. Understand that when you sign a contract you're expected to uphold your end of it.

    Sorry. I'm usually very positive on this site. This issue (which is very vague), I can't seem to get around. Maybe because I've done my time and I've paid for any time I haven't upheld my end of the contract into which I knowingly entered.
     
  6. kenny
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    by kenny » Jun 17, 2014
    This mentality makes me wanna puke.
     
  7. monarch64
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    by monarch64 » Jun 17, 2014
    Which mentality, specifically, and why? :confused:
     
  8. Dancing Fire
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    by Dancing Fire » Jun 17, 2014
    Of course...Why should I work when I can get it for free?
     
  9. kenny
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    by kenny » Jun 17, 2014

    People not taking personal responsibility, feeling entitled to everything, suing for the stupidest things.

    Why? Well maybe because I had to work for everything I have.

    People vary.
    Some people suck. :knockout:
     
  10. Dancing Fire
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    by Dancing Fire » Jun 17, 2014
    Always easier to take then give... :rolleyes: The more you give the more they want.
     
    


    


  11. GliderPoss
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    by GliderPoss » Jun 17, 2014
    I don't think it matters WHO was in the boat. Why would we need a constant lookout & rescue service if people weren't illegally attempting to enter the country? We do have constant boarder security & the Navy working tirelessly in the Timor Sea. I believe they are making every effort to save lives and discourages others from risking their own. With around 16,000 miles of coastline it is physically impossible for rescue services to be everywhere at once. The moral is still the same - if you are doing something WRONG why is it someone else's fault?
     
  12. monarch64
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    by monarch64 » Jun 17, 2014
    Gotcha. Yeah, it's unfortunate for those who HAVE worked for everything/most of what they have.
    The old saying "life isn't fair" certainly applies. But what a hard pill to swallow for those who have worked harder, fought harder, and seen lives lost for their cause. I don't articulate this sort of thing well. While I have had my tough rows to hoe, I have never seen war firsthand and I have not had it as tough as many. But I am grateful and THANKFUL to all those who've done the real work. I learn something new (some days many things) every day from those who've "been there."

    It has made me more compassionate, at the very least. And it has made me realize we're all in this together. A lot of us human beans just don't get that.
     
  13. movie zombie
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    by movie zombie » Jun 17, 2014
    we talking about your daughters or other people, DF!? :lol:
     
  14. Dancing Fire
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    by Dancing Fire » Jun 17, 2014
    Well TBH I'm still subsidizing my younger daughter b/c she's still going to school. DD #1 is out on her own since she is working full time.
     
  15. Indylady
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    by Indylady » Jun 17, 2014
    I think there are two issues: 1) illegal immigration or 2) rescue services.

    I don't disagree with you about the dangers of the sea and of assuming the risk for yourself. I just see two separate issues in the matter.
     
    


    


  16. TooPatient
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    by TooPatient » Jun 17, 2014
    Packrat, you should know better...... the Other Guy is ALWAYS at fault :praise: :rolleyes:


    Seriously --

    You've hit it exactly. I am SICK of watching this sort of attitude all around me. Every which direction there is more of it!

    "A" just brought me the waiver for the school "fun day". They want me to sign a waiver acknowledging the school is not at fault, the district is not at fault, the carnival is not at fault, the staff is not at fault, etc etc etc and if (through no fault) "A" is injured they can get medical care for her and it will not be their fault (seriously). I also had to sign acknowledging that it is OUR fault if someone else gets hurt and "A" is in their vicinity.... So I guess we are the Other Guy.

    When I fell and tore my ankle apart (ligaments?), I went back to let the property management know that multiple people had fallen in the same location. I didn't want anything from them. Just to report that it had happened so they could be aware of a need for repairs before someone (like the elderly from retirement homes who bus people over for shopping) fell and was seriously injured. They wouldn't even take a report from me since it wasn't the same day! (um.... I could hardly stand and my foot was turning colors, I went to the dr :rolleyes: ) After speaking with a manager (of one of the stores, not property management), I found that they are "liable" if they take a report and if they ignore the entire thing people usually just go away.

    And the list goes on.
     
  17. quietlysw
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    by quietlysw » Jun 17, 2014
    Well, I feel like this post is using a very difficult issue to make a simple point.

    Yes, people should take personal responsibility for their actions. Illegal drug-taking, speeding, drink driving... the list goes on. However, to extend this to personal responsibility to "taking an ILLEGAL trip here in a crappy leaky boat with an unqualified "captain" with no lifeboats/life vests etc." shows an inherent lack of compassion towards asylum seekers. To say that these people died "UNNECESSARILY" is something that doesn't sit right with me.

    To you what might seem unnecessary is in fact a do-or-die journey to a country free of persecution. Should they be suing the government? It's difficult to say. I definitely think that it could be argued either way. These human beings and their lawyers are trying to make a point that if Australia increased its humanitarian intake of asylum seekers, or made more of an effort to stabilise the region (rather than setting up off-shore holding pens to keep humans locked up - and yes, you are paying for that too!), less would feel the need to take the perilous journey by boat.

    By having this lawsuit, it is drawing attention to the issue. Although this renewed attention could have been a good thing, unfortunately this post shows just how far society has to go to in exercising their empathy towards people who are living a reality so far removed from our own.

    I am an Australian, and this rhetoric surrounding asylum seekers, or "boat people", is one of the things that make me most upset and frustrated.

    By all means, continue the discussion about how "our ever increasing litigous society is responsible for people taking LESS personal responsibility than ever", but leave out the issue of asylum seekers.
     
  18. justginger
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    by justginger » Jun 17, 2014
    I can only imagine what desperation those people have in their hearts when they make the decision to try to get to Christmas Island. It isn't for me to judge, and to be honest, I would bet a bit of cash that they were the ones approached by Aussie lawyers, desperate to build a case for the publicity and profits.

    I find the 'let's sue over everything' mentality building very quickly in Australia - a decade ago it was nowhere near as bad as it is now. Everyone is looking for a quick, effortless profit.
     
  19. GliderPoss
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    by GliderPoss » Jun 17, 2014

    Yes I probably used a difficult example to illustrate my frustration. In my mind - to simplify it, it's like suing the fireman who turned up at your burning house. He turned up and did his best to put the fire out but the house was still unfortunately lost so you sued the pants off him for not doing better. :nono:

    I do feel compassion for asylum seekers and agree they should be treated better. Those poor people DID die unnecessarily - without doubt. Had they attempted to come via legal channels they wouldn't have drowned a horrible death off the coast! It's not an arguement I want to really get into, as my point remains the same - people need to take personal responsibility for their actions.
     
  20. nkarma
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    by nkarma » Jun 17, 2014
    THIS is your story of people that don't take responsibility anymore??? Some of the most desperate people alive that knew they could die making that journey and did so anyways. I mean come on I am sure we can find people that aren't facing certain death or torture in their own countries that don't take responsibility, like billions more!

    We can get into the topic of asylum seekers in Australia which I know is very controversial. Perhaps the suit isn't because they are not trying to take responsibility, but bring attention to the hundreds of deaths that are occurring or also trying to do something to get a wealthier government to help & stop these unnecessary deaths. I am not saying whether that is right or wrong, but man there has to be trillions of examples of stupid lawsuits & I am not going to call out people who have suffered more in their lives than I (hopefully) can ever imagine. If anyone deserves empathy, it's these people.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Re: the bolded. Do you not get that if they did try to go through legal channels they would have died too. Have you ever had to make a decision for yourself and your family that would lead to death either way you turned? When a person is that desperate is there such a thing as choice or responsibility?
     
  21. ksinger
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    by ksinger » Jun 17, 2014
    Agreed. To which I would add...mm...lessee...It sounds like to me that one group of Australians (activists and their LAWYERS) is trying to make a point to other Australians. Since the asylum seekers themselves - read: the pawns in this who were likely told that as long as this issue was in the courts they couldn't be sent back to the hell-hole they were desperate enough to risk their lives to escape - are being ranted at for lack of personal responsibility, it seems the point was missed.
     
  22. perry
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    by perry » Jun 17, 2014
    You asked about the moral of the story...

    What makes you think there is a moral lesson in that story. There are no morals.

    No one is responsible - unless you earned your own money by hard work; and then you are responsible for everyone else.


    Have a great day,

    Perry
     
  23. missy
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    by missy » Jun 17, 2014
    I agree. This is a tragic and perhaps not appropriate example of the point HotPozzum is making. Horrible event and tragic loss of lives that should never have happened.

    This event is separate from the personal responsibility point IMO. And the reluctance to take personal responsibility for actions is happening in the USA as well. People want to blame someone for all their troubles and take no personal responsibility whatsoever. The above isn't the example to use to illustrate the point but I understand what HotPozzum is saying. People are more willing and in fact expect to take (it's their right after all) rather than give and ready to blame (anyone but themselves) rather than take responsibility and it is hurting society. Over time it is draining resources and hurting everyone's quality of life IMO.

    I will add that it is truly tragic that people desperate for asylum are turned away and that a wealthy government turns a blind eye. Sometimes (most times?) it seems empathy and compassion are dead and people/government are desensitized beyond belief to the suffering all around them. :blackeye:
     
  24. LaraOnline
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    by LaraOnline » Jun 17, 2014
    Yes I think it's very clear that this is a politically minded suit. And that makes me mad, as the schmuck that pays. Perhaps the ALP politicans should be personally sued for throwing open the opportunity to try in the minds of the asylum seekers? I personally was sickened and furious about the deaths. But I wasn't blaming the Christmas Island locals, or rescue services.

    Americans know a lot about migrants, and illegal migrants. There are many that make the attempt through Mexico every year.

    The Australian conversation about asylum seekers may be overblown. Australian rhetoric (and there is so very, very much of it) only ever has us greeted with desperate refugees fleeing wartime situations, on deaths door and with the money for an air ticket. In our public conversations, the concept of an economic migrant is greeted with absolute howls of derision. But I cannot understand how Australia would not attract economic migrants, just as it is accepted that other developed countries attract economic migrants.

    But that's another conversation I guess. Aussies seem to love a political circus, and so this political circus will be eagerly followed, I'd imagine. Our news is very dull here.... :roll:
     
  25. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Jun 17, 2014
    I cannot tell you how pleased I am to read your comments. In another recent thread, a fellow countryman of yours declared with pride that her country purposefully makes it harder for immigrants from lesser developed countries to relocate there (which is likely why they were trying to enter illegally instead.) I truly hoped that it was an individually-held rather than universally-held viewpoint, so I'm relieved to hear your differing thoughts on it.

    I do agree with you that the discussion about lack of personal responsibility and increasing litigous attitudes would be better served with an example other than asylum seekers.
     
  26. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Jun 17, 2014
    Wholeheartedly agree, especially when it's something that a person with any shred of common sense should know anyway.

    "You didn't warn me that the plastic cape from my kid's Halloween costume wouldn't *actually* let someone fly" comes to mind.
     
  27. aljdewey
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    by aljdewey » Jun 17, 2014
    Now THIS is a fantastic example. I've seen derivatives of this too - i.e. fire was caused by something the homeowner did (overloaded circuits, left unattended candles burning, etc. etc.). Firefighters do everything in their power to save buildings; that's why they do what they do. How anyone could watch the extremes they go to, the risks they take....and then say "they didn't try hard enough to save my house, so it's their fault" is just insane to me.

    I'm even more staggered when it happens to good samaritans or people like volunteer firefighters - people who didn't have to help tried, but let's sue them because they weren't successful.
     
  28. partgypsy
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    by partgypsy » Jun 17, 2014
    I don't get too worked about about hearing people filing cases. People have the right to file for all the meritless and frivolous lawsuits they want. There are enough lawyers on the planet (a surplus) that someone will take on that work (if not actively advertise for it).
    Many of these people do not even want to go to court, they only want to threaten court action, so the deep pockets will figure it is easier to settle.
    I will assume the courts will be sensible enough in this situation.

    Sometimes I wonder, if there was a way that people filing, would hav to pay a fee, or the defendants court costs for meritless cases, will there be a motivation to reduce these kind of cases.

    And it's not that i don't have sympathy for those people. But they should have the attitude that, they rolled the dice, they took their chances on something that was very risky and dangerous (and illegal) and it resulted in a tragedy.
     
  29. AGBF
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    by AGBF » Jun 17, 2014
    Amen, al.

    And thank you for your thoughtful commentary that started the dissenting discussion, quietlysw.

    Deb
    :saint:
     
  30. LaraOnline
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    by LaraOnline » Jun 17, 2014
    I don't think I read the conversation that you are referring to aljdewey, but perhaps the context is this. We had a left-leaning government that for the past few years relaxed rules surrounding the management of asylum seekers, and as a result increasing numbers of travellers without paperwork came by boat, with the intention of claiming asylum, and many of those dreadfully unseaworthy boats fell apart. This case is just one of many concerning and tragic events that happened as unseaworthy boats came from Indonesia. The government change and the rules were tightened up, partly to encourage would-be travellers not to bother. Personally I'm glad the boats have slowed. The recurrent stories of pregnant women and children drowning in the sea were making me sick at heart. The refugee intake remains the same regardless of how many boats come. If no boats come, we fill the annual intake with desperately needy people in horrible camps.

    but yes, the news of this litigation (which will be defended or paid out by us, the long-suffering taxpayer) made me want to lol and bang my head very hard against a wall at the same time.
     

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