What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemstone?

[bright ice]

Just want opinions on where an eye clean stone should fall on the inclusion scale of AGL?

Is it safe to say it would be acceptable?

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

Since you posted this in CS I assume you're talking about colored gems as well as diamonds. I don't buy diamonds so can't say anything on that score, but for other gems it depends on the type of stone & the type & location of inclusions -- assuming color, saturation & cut were okay. Where one stone might be acceptable at SI, another wouldn't. For me, there isn't a hard & fast rule.

--- Laurie

 

[Pandora II]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

I'm not sure that I understand?

Eyeclean in coloured stones is basically the same as flawless for diamonds.

Diamonds are clarity graded under a x10 loupe, coloured stones are graded with the naked eye. You also have the issue of what Type the particular stone falls into. VS in a Type II is different from a VS in a Type III for example as some stones are just accepted as having inclusions - eg emeralds. One of the markers for hessonite garnet are the 'water into whisky' inclusions - if it doesn't have those then it quite possibly isn't a hessonite.

If a stone is eyeclean then I don't care what inclusions it has as long as they are neither surface reaching nor potentially damaging to the structure of the stone. Spinels with little internal crystals, sapphires with rutile silk, hessonites with swirly treacle...

 

[bright ice]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

I'm not sure that I understand?

Eyeclean in coloured stones is basically the same as flawless for diamonds.

Diamonds are clarity graded under a x10 loupe, coloured stones are graded with the naked eye. You also have the issue of what Type the particular stone falls into. VS in a Type II is different from a VS in a Type III for example as some stones are just accepted as having inclusions - eg emeralds. One of the markers for hessonite garnet are the 'water into whisky' inclusions - if it doesn't have those then it quite possibly isn't a hessonite.

If a stone is eyeclean then I don't care what inclusions it has as long as they are neither surface reaching nor potentially damaging to the structure of the stone. Spinels with little internal crystals, sapphires with rutile silk, hessonites with swirly treacle...

Thanks Pandora,

You pretty much answered my questions. I am looking at a spinel which is graded eye clean, inclusions described as: (when examined under 10x magnification, a number of small inclusions in the form of clusters of tiny sugar-like crystals).

 

[chrono]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

In a spinel, eye clean with the naked eye 6 inches away is considered as a high standard for coloured gemstones. If there are any obvious inclusions, make sure they are not surface breaking or too close to a place where it may affect the integrity of the stone.

 

[bright ice]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

In a spinel, eye clean with the naked eye 6 inches away is considered as a high standard for coloured gemstones. If there are any obvious inclusions, make sure they are not surface breaking or too close to a place where it may affect the integrity of the stone.

AJS says no surface inclusions, nothing to affect the integrity of the stone.

 

[chrono]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

As a "just in case", it's clean all around, including the pavilion and not just the crown?

 

[ooo~Shiney!]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

With my naked eye, 6 inches is too close !!!! I can't SEEEEEE

i LOVE pictures of inclusions, some here have posted a few...
Inclusions are interesting, and sometimes a surprise to find in your stone when you loupe it..
My big Rubellite has so many inclusions it looks like a planet.... but it is a beautiful ball of purple-pink goodness...

anyway, sorry to get away from the topic....
I don't mind a few inclusions in spinel, if that is what you are referring to....
to me, inclusions should imply that they are "included" inside the stone, not as pits on the surface....
if the integrity of the stone is not affected, then it just depends on how much I like the stone,
because the inclusions wouldn't bother me then.
But that's just me, and I am still VERY MUCH a learner....

 

[T L]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

BrightIce,
I think in the case of your stone, you have to make a distinction between price paid and the inclusions. For me, the inclusions in your spinel wouldn't bother me, but I know some dealers that give huge discounts for even one little bubble.

I think Freke bought a huge 5 carat Mahenge spinel from AJS, and it was moderately included, therefore the price was very very good. In the case of the stone you're considering, if you can see the inclusions, I would want a larger discount. Perhaps newer material is just higher in price, and dealers could discount a great deal on included material. Maybe not so much now, but that is something you should find out about.

Did Rung say it had visible silk? My trillion spinel has microscopic silk, and you can't really see it, but it is nice as it gives the stone a more glowy, less extinct appearance, and it still has sparkle. Some spinels are too silky, where they dramatically impede the sparkle of the stone. They should also be heavily discounted for that.

 

[Pandora II]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

I think it's pretty crazy expecting discounts for inclusions that aren't eye-visible and don't have a negative impact on the structure.

If I was a dealer and had 2 identical stones one of which was loupe clean and one of which was eye-clean, I would ask the same price for each. Wanting discounts for things you can't actually see is like asking for a $2k deduction on a car because there might be a scratch on the inside of the bonnet cover...

These things are NATURAL, they're not supposed to look like they came out of a laboratory.

I think PSers need to be careful about setting unrealistic expectations. The 'holding colour in all lights' thing for example is just la-la-land, it is NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE. You only need to know the basics of light and colour theory to understand how you can't expect anything, least of all a gemstone to look the same in all lights.

 

[T L]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

I think it's pretty crazy expecting discounts for inclusions that aren't eye-visible and don't have a negative impact on the structure.

I know Pandora, but I'm just relaying my experiences with other vendors, and how they would discount these stones even with non-visible inclusions. Some people are just really picky about inclusions as well, look at all the people that need VVS and IF diamonds, yet cannot see these flaws with the naked eye. There are some people like that with particular colored gems. For some odd reason, there are dealers that do give discounts on non eye visible inclusions with Mahenges. I had a dealer tell me that a stone will be so much less per carat because it had a small bubble. He's a reputable dealer in Mahenge spinels, and a precision cutter.

Now if the inclusions are eye visible, I think she should get a discount, as I spoke of Freke's example. I've seen overly silky stones at bargain prices as well, primarily on Multicolour.com, and many people got some great deals on those stones, for example, SleepySpinel (another member of this forum).

Of course, this may no longer be the case, and all Mahenges, no matter the inclusions, will be higher priced. I think it's worth asking about and if we can help the OP save a little money, more power to her!

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

I think it's pretty crazy expecting discounts for inclusions that aren't eye-visible and don't have a negative impact on the structure.

If I was a dealer and had 2 identical stones one of which was loupe clean and one of which was eye-clean, I would ask the same price for each. Wanting discounts for things you can't actually see is like asking for a $2k deduction on a car because there might be a scratch on the inside of the bonnet cover...

These things are NATURAL, they're not supposed to look like they came out of a laboratory.

I think PSers need to be careful about setting unrealistic expectations. The 'holding colour in all lights' thing for example is just la-la-land, it is NOT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE. You only need to know the basics of light and colour theory to understand how you can't expect anything, least of all a gemstone to look the same in all lights.

Good post Pandora!

I would think that most or all dealers take into account the clarity when working out the price for a stone. So an included stone is already discounted below what a comparable loupe clean stone would be. So asking for a discount because it's included is no different than asking for a discount because a stone is clean.

 

[T L]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

I would think that most or all dealers take into account the clarity when working out the price for a stone. So an included stone is already discounted below what a comparable loupe clean stone would be. So asking for a discount because it's included is no different than asking for a discount because a stone is clean.

One should never assume this (in bold), and besides, Gene, no offense, but of course you want the highest prices for your material as a vendor. I don't know why people are so touchy about asking for a discount, it's good practice in the colored gem collecting arena. It happens all the time. I know many collectors that ALWAYS ask for a discount, no matter what the gem is, or it's traits.

Hey if people want to pay the absolute highest prices for their gems, so be it. I don't fall into that category.

 

[Jeffrey Hunt]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

Hi TourmalineLover,

I think you are right in asking for discounts, as a consumer it is very smart to shop around and look for the best price and bargain. It never hurts, and my recommendation if I were selling stones, would be to point you in the right direction to the type of stone and price range you were seeking.

My guess is most reputable vendors selling higher priced stones or custom stones would do the same thing and you will find them very very helpful. Encouragingly so. With the lower priced stones, I’m not so sure about. ☺ What do you think?

Regards!

Jeffrey Hunt

 

[MontageCreations]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

To the OP's question on clarity - it's subjective to the buyer, they have to decide what their comfort level is, but eye clean is also a subjective term. I mean we can't possibly understand the term unless it's clearly defined by those judging, after all my corrected vision is 20/15, but my uncorrected vision is 20/80, so "eye clean" to me is different depending on whether I have my glasses on or off.

It's generally a given that the person making the judgment calls has fully corrected vision and isn't color desensitized, but that's not always the case. Not trying to be argumentative, just reminding us we all see things differently.

Always ask for a discount, it doesn't hurt to ask, but by the same token don't be offended if the seller says "full price".

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

I would think that most or all dealers take into account the clarity when working out the price for a stone. So an included stone is already discounted below what a comparable loupe clean stone would be. So asking for a discount because it's included is no different than asking for a discount because a stone is clean.

One should never assume this (in bold), and besides, Gene, no offense, but of course you want the highest prices for your material as a vendor. I don't know why people are so touchy about asking for a discount, it's good practice in the colored gem collecting arena. It happens all the time. I know many collectors that ALWAYS ask for a discount, no matter what the gem is, or it's traits.

Hey if people want to pay the absolute highest prices for their gems, so be it. I don't fall into that category.

I think you misunderstood me. My point was, as a seller, if I have two stones, one is eye clean or let's say loupe clean, and the other is slightly included, I'm going to price the included stone less. So are you asking for a discount on the stone because it's included? It's already discounted because of the inclusions. Now if you are just asking for a discount for the sake of a discount, then that's different. But go ahead and ask for one on the loupe clean stone too. Ask for one at the Italian Gardens for dinner too. Sometimes at the end of the night restaurants will discount food rather than toss it out.

I'd say most of the stones I see people from Pricescope buying, are certainly not paying "the absolute highest prices for" either. Most of the popular vendors and cutters are selling right around wholesale price, so without any additional discount, the prices are rather low.

 

[colorluvr]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

A couple of comments about vendor descriptions vs. photos vs. vendor relationships.

I'm "friends" with three different vendors that I have purchased several stones from, some of them being in the "more expensive" category and some in the "less expensive" category and many in between. One uses a professional photographer and one takes their own photos (and it shows - lol) and one will do both if I ask.

Either way, when I am purchasing a more expensive stone from them, I speak with them before I buy because I find that they are very honest with me in their verbal explanations. The vendor with the glamour shots will be honest with my constant "is it really that color in person OR does it have a window" questions, as he knows it will get returned if I'm not pleased and because I am a repeat customer, it is in his best interest to be as forthright as possible.

The vendor with the less than wonderful photos, relies much more on verbal explanations, as his photos are never as good as the stone is in person.

They pretty much now know what I like, and so now they sometimes contact ME when they have a stone that they think I might like, often before they are put up for sale or listed online. Sometimes the price is written in stone (ie, if I don't buy it at that price, someone else will) and sometimes we discuss the price back on forth for a while.

Each of these vendors have very different selling styles and so the way I go about discussing price varies from vendor to vendor. The vendor with the IRL (lousy) photos has been in business for a very long time and 90% of his business now is repeat customers and word of mouth and all of our discussions are over the phone (he doesn't have a website or sell on ebay). The other two vendors are more volume sellers and our discussions are mostly via skype (which more closely mimics face to face or phone conversations IMHO than email).

I have also purchased some precision cut stones from some of the vendors that are quite well known on PS. I've exchanged emails with them, and found them to be very helpful, but their stones often sell very quickly, so often the stone I am inquiring about would mostly likely be sold before I ever got an email response to my questions if I waited around for specific answers.

There are a couple of other ebays sellers that I have communicated with several times, and I now feel comfortable that the answers I receive to my questions are quite reliable also.

My point is that sometimes establishing a relationship with a specific vendor and learning their communication and selling styles can often be beneficial to both parties and what may work with one vendor (negotiating a price) will not work at all with another.

 

[T L]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

I would think that most or all dealers take into account the clarity when working out the price for a stone. So an included stone is already discounted below what a comparable loupe clean stone would be. So asking for a discount because it's included is no different than asking for a discount because a stone is clean.

One should never assume this (in bold), and besides, Gene, no offense, but of course you want the highest prices for your material as a vendor. I don't know why people are so touchy about asking for a discount, it's good practice in the colored gem collecting arena. It happens all the time. I know many collectors that ALWAYS ask for a discount, no matter what the gem is, or it's traits.

Hey if people want to pay the absolute highest prices for their gems, so be it. I don't fall into that category.

I think you misunderstood me. My point was, as a seller, if I have two stones, one is eye clean or let's say loupe clean, and the other is slightly included, I'm going to price the included stone less. So are you asking for a discount on the stone because it's included? It's already discounted because of the inclusions. Now if you are just asking for a discount for the sake of a discount, then that's different. But go ahead and ask for one on the loupe clean stone too. Ask for one at the Italian Gardens for dinner too. Sometimes at the end of the night restaurants will discount food rather than toss it out.

I'd say most of the stones I see people from Pricescope buying, are certainly not paying "the absolute highest prices for" either. Most of the popular vendors and cutters are selling right around wholesale price, so without any additional discount, the prices are rather low.

Gene, you know you are not really high priced when it comes to other precision cutters, and I know you're honest about inclusions and you do discount stones based on them. Barry is the same way. However, for people not in the know about certain vendors like yourself, I don't see a problem with asking for a discount. Don't you wheel and deal on rough at Tuscon? Therefore, why do we have to accept a firm price if we can have a chance at asking for a discount. I have to disagree with you on your last statement, as I think some people pay really high prices from some vendors. I won't say which ones though, but it's not you.

I will also say that I never had a vendor in my entire life tell me, "I refuse to deal with you!!" because I made an offer. I think they respect the offer, and if they don't want to take one, that's their perrogative. I don't think it hurts to ask. However, if a vendor ever did say that to me, I would probably consider myself lucky not to have worked with them.

Geesh, even Leibish takes offers on the most rare and valuable gems in the world. Buying gems is a lot like buying a car, except it's easier to buy a car since there are good established market values. When you're talking thousands of dollars, I think there's more room to negotiate. However, no I don't make dinner "offers" at Italian restaurants. I think their prices are pretty firm.

 

[LD]

Re: What grading would you consider safe to buy in a gemston

In some gemstones I expect them to be eye clean. Others, depending on their type, I would expect to see inclusions.

I think people who are used to buying diamonds often believe clarity is the most important aspect of coloured gemstones also but as we all know it's COLOUR COLOUR COLOUR and then, in no particular order, cut, clarity etc.

Just an aside - In terms of a gem holding its colour - the ONLY one I expect to see do this is Rubellite - otherwise, to me, it's a pink tourmaline. I realise that this is a hot bone of contention but for me, it separates the two AND I hate seeing a gorgeous purple/red/raspberry colour move to brown! In most other gems I love to see how it looks different in various lighting - it's like getting 2 for the price of 1!