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What exactly is cornflower blue?? Royal blue??

chictomato

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Hi there! while looking thru Sapphire colors, I always come across description like Royal blue and cornflower blue. So what exactly is different? I assume that Royal blue is med-medium dark, darker than cornflower blue, more saturated? whereas cornflower blue is of a medium blue, and is generally lighter than Royal blue? Is that right:)? Pict reference most welcome! Pls correct me if I am wrong:) TIA
 

Kismet

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Cornflowers! Of course they come in various shades of blue but I think this is pretty close to what they mean when they say ''cornflower blue''.

cornflowers1213.jpg
 

chrono

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Excellent explanation by Kismet, especially with the cornflower picture reference.
 

T L

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Those actual cornflowers look more "vivid blue" to me. They're quite vivid and if I could find a natural untreated sapphire that color, it would be worth thousands and thousands. I could see the vendor using that color as an example of another overused sapphire descriptor of "Kashmir blue."

I don't care much for descriptors in the gem trade like pidgeon blood red, cornflower blue, sunshine yellow, I mean, how many of us have seen the blood of a pidgeon or a cornflower? As for the sun, sunshine to me is white light, and this can be interpreted so many ways. These are just a few of so many of these types of ridiculous descriptions.

To me cornflower blue is a lighter, less saturated blue than royal blue, but what is cornflower, and what is royal, is up to anyone's guess. Now I know there might be websites that describe those colors, but this is very inconsistent among vendors. Don't pay attention to descriptors and ask the vendor questions like, "Is there grey (cool stone), or brown (warm stone)," "How much grey or brown?", "What is the hue, saturation and tone?" Descriptors are really, to me anyways, a selling ploy and they sound romantic, so it entices the buyer more.

Just my two cents.
 

T L

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Date: 6/15/2010 9:05:25 AM
Author: gemgirl
This might help you. It's from the Cross Jewelers website.


http://www.crossjewelers.com/products/how_to_buy_sapphire.asp?FolderID=53





IMO, this is precisely the type of chart that is inconsistent among vendors (and I've never seen some of these descriptors on other websites). I wouldn't use this chart. I would prefer a GIA saturation/tone chart for the hue of blue. Cornflower isn't even on this chart.
 

marcy

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In most of the gemstone books I have read that is generally how they refer to it as a bright royal blue. Of course it is all subjective which shade of blue you like.
 

Rockit

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Funny, if it were up to me, I might have called the chart''s "Camelot" blue "cornflower." Add to this the fact that everyone sees color differently and voila... total color confusion!
 

Indylady

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Oh Kismet! Those the blue of those flowers is so pretty.
 

movie zombie

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what a great question!

too bad all our monitors aren''t the same and set the same so we could all see the same color/colors.........

sigh.

mz
 

serenitydiamonds

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Those color's are marketing terms by vendors to help sell products, and really aren't great descriptions of the colors. You should request a GIA color description which is a bit more accurate. I've seen 'cornflower blue' stones that are almost clear, and almost black. Typically the color description is a great way to separate the sophisticated sellers from others....

--Joshua
 

T L

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Date: 6/15/2010 11:58:29 AM
Author: serenitydiamonds
Those color''s are marketing terms by vendors to help sell products, and really aren''t great descriptions of the colors. You should request a GIA color description which is a bit more accurate. I''ve seen ''cornflower blue'' stones that are almost clear, and almost black. Typically the color description is a great way to separate the sophisticated sellers from others....

--Joshua
Thank you Joshua. It still frustrates me to no end when I see terms like pidgeon blood on GRS lab reports however. Ugh! Well, that''s a whole other thread.
 

VapidLapid

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I dont trust descriptors and am instantly suspicious when they are used in an item''s title or heading rather than in the description. I actually get angry when I see "kashmir" or "cobalt" used to describe stones that aren''t. However, Kismet those cornflowers are such a fantastic color! I want a sapphire that color whether you want to call it cornflower or not. I am told that the cornflowers themselves call that color sapphire blue.
 

Rockit

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I''m not bothered by a vendor using descriptive or "colorful" terms to describe stones in their marketing. I would hope that most prospective purchasers understand that these words are used to give a vendor''s impression of a gem''s visual characteristics and are NOT official terms used to qualify color, such as one might find on a report from a respected lab. Ideally, a vendor could provide a more concrete "official" color description along with his/her marketing blurb regarding a gem. Color is so subjective, it is hard to say someone is right or wrong in their impressions.

All that being said, I would be disappointed to find less concrete, more subjective, descriptions on gem reports. I agree, that in this type of case, it is good to have a well-observed standard for color grading (even though the same gemstone may appear differently in Southeast Asia than it would in Canada and we are all going to have slightly varying perceptions of the color anyway...).
 

chictomato

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Date: 6/15/2010 10:27:17 AM
Author: Rockit
Funny, if it were up to me, I might have called the chart''s ''Camelot'' blue ''cornflower.'' Add to this the fact that everyone sees color differently and voila... total color confusion!

hi friends! Thank you for the input! It''s certainly informative! Btw I would consider Camelot blue as cornflower blue too. That''s the color I assume to be cornflower
1.gif
 

T L

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Date: 6/15/2010 2:07:48 PM
Author: chictomato

Date: 6/15/2010 10:27:17 AM
Author: Rockit
Funny, if it were up to me, I might have called the chart''s ''Camelot'' blue ''cornflower.'' Add to this the fact that everyone sees color differently and voila... total color confusion!

hi friends! Thank you for the input! It''s certainly informative! Btw I would consider Camelot blue as cornflower blue too. That''s the color I assume to be cornflower
1.gif
Yeah, but it might not be to the vendor who is selling you the stone. The fact of the matter is that sapphires come in a huge range of tones and saturations, and to classify sapphires, or any gem, with a two word descriptor is not only misleading, but not very informative. Now I realize some vendors use these descriptors quite a bit, and I feel the true test of a good vendor is to ignore that, and ask specific questions about hue, saturation and tone. If they have no clue or cannot give you a good answer, shop elsewhere.
 

chictomato

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Hi TL! Ya I see that description quite often:) tan replied that my latest pair of sapphire pear is an ''outstanding cornflower pure blue'' I do trust tan. But well, let''s see what it turns out to be :) will certainly share some photos with you guys when it arrived in about 3 weeks time.
 

ededdeddy

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Interesting that the Camelot blue is a cornflower color. JFK and JFK Jr. wore cornflower boutineers at their weddings.
 

T L

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Date: 6/15/2010 2:27:39 PM
Author: chictomato
Hi TL! Ya I see that description quite often:) tan replied that my latest pair of sapphire pear is an ''outstanding cornflower pure blue'' I do trust tan. But well, let''s see what it turns out to be :) will certainly share some photos with you guys when it arrived in about 3 weeks time.
Ha ha, Tan knows better than to use those descriptors with me. To me, he talks about tone, grey, brown, hues, etc. . . He also knows I''m very very sensitive to modifiers. I sometimes think a vendor uses these terms also to simplify things for a customer if they don''t know the customer''s knowledge about colored gems. For many that is a fact of life, and that is why education is important. If you ask him some straightforward questions about grey, brown, hue, saturation, etc. . . I think he will give more precise information.
 

chictomato

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Hi TL! I asked tan if there is gray or green in the sapphire:) and he replied 'its pure blue' Hopefully it is, otherwise I will have to return them:)
 

LD

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Date: 6/15/2010 2:41:37 PM
Author: chictomato
Hi TL! I asked tan if there is gray or green in the sapphire:) and he replied ''its pure blue'' Hopefully it is, otherwise I will have to return them:)
Well, whilst I''ve had some lovely stones from Tan, I''ve recently received a Sapphire that he assured me was also "pure blue" with no grey. It''s awful. Truly dreadful and grey grey grey.

Sooooooooo, I''d say to pick something that looks right to you and then take advantage of the returns policy if you need to!
 

T L

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Date: 6/15/2010 2:41:37 PM
Author: chictomato
Hi TL! I asked tan if there is gray or green in the sapphire:) and he replied 'its pure blue' Hopefully it is, otherwise I will have to return them:)
It probably has some grey, but it's insignificant (based on the photo I saw), and most people that do not have a trained eye would probably never see it. A pure blue sapphire with no grey would be extremely saturated in color like the flowers above, and command a much MUCH MUCH higher price tag. I have seen the sapphires, and they are very pretty, but there is some grey, although it is minimal and doesn't affect the overall beauty of the stones. They might also look better in person. Vivid and pure hues in nature are extremely rare, so when a trusted vendor says no grey, take it to mean it's minimal. To me, moderately strong and strong saturation is also not defined has having grey or brown in the literature, but it's there, otherwise the stone would be vivid.
 

T L

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Date: 6/15/2010 2:45:49 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 6/15/2010 2:41:37 PM
Author: chictomato
Hi TL! I asked tan if there is gray or green in the sapphire:) and he replied ''its pure blue'' Hopefully it is, otherwise I will have to return them:)
Well, whilst I''ve had some lovely stones from Tan, I''ve recently received a Sapphire that he assured me was also ''pure blue'' with no grey. It''s awful. Truly dreadful and grey grey grey.

Sooooooooo, I''d say to pick something that looks right to you and then take advantage of the returns policy if you need to!
Same here, some spinels were grey, and he said they were not. They were returned. Now he knows I know what grey is!!
 

Rockit

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And, TL, I think you''ve put your finger on the heart of the matter: Not all colored gem shoppers are as informed, or care to be as informed, as many of us here at PS. Accordingly, a description of "cornflower blue" suites some just fine, and might even be considered extremely descriptive. By contrast, a description of "medium dark 60" or one made using the Munsell or Pantone color systems, may be completely meaningless. Moreover, the concepts of hue, saturation and tone are way beyond the interest or comprehension of many people.

I''d like to think that a vendor with "cotton candy" descriptions is both willing and able to discuss color, as well as other gemstone characteristics like zoning and windowing, in a more definitive manner when asked. And, I don''t mind asking. Obviously, you don''t either! The flipside is that some people don''t care enough, or need any more detailed description, to ask.
 

LD

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Date: 6/15/2010 2:54:50 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 6/15/2010 2:45:49 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds


Date: 6/15/2010 2:41:37 PM
Author: chictomato
Hi TL! I asked tan if there is gray or green in the sapphire:) and he replied ''its pure blue'' Hopefully it is, otherwise I will have to return them:)
Well, whilst I''ve had some lovely stones from Tan, I''ve recently received a Sapphire that he assured me was also ''pure blue'' with no grey. It''s awful. Truly dreadful and grey grey grey.

Sooooooooo, I''d say to pick something that looks right to you and then take advantage of the returns policy if you need to!
Same here, some spinels were grey, and he said they were not. They were returned. Now he knows I know what grey is!!
9.gif
Maybe he just doesn''t see grey the way we do!
2.gif


To be honest, he also said that the Sapphire didn''t have extinction at either end (something I made a point of asking about) and it most definitely does. It''s put me off ordering from him for now because I need to trust somebody''s "eye". Ah well, you live and learn!
 

T L

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Date: 6/15/2010 3:07:06 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds

Date: 6/15/2010 2:54:50 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover


Date: 6/15/2010 2:45:49 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds



Date: 6/15/2010 2:41:37 PM
Author: chictomato
Hi TL! I asked tan if there is gray or green in the sapphire:) and he replied ''its pure blue'' Hopefully it is, otherwise I will have to return them:)
Well, whilst I''ve had some lovely stones from Tan, I''ve recently received a Sapphire that he assured me was also ''pure blue'' with no grey. It''s awful. Truly dreadful and grey grey grey.

Sooooooooo, I''d say to pick something that looks right to you and then take advantage of the returns policy if you need to!
Same here, some spinels were grey, and he said they were not. They were returned. Now he knows I know what grey is!!
9.gif
Maybe he just doesn''t see grey the way we do!
2.gif


To be honest, he also said that the Sapphire didn''t have extinction at either end (something I made a point of asking about) and it most definitely does. It''s put me off ordering from him for now because I need to trust somebody''s ''eye''. Ah well, you live and learn!
Well, in all honesty, I do think some people see modifiers easier than others, even other vendors. I had one vendor tell me I see orange more easily than he does in reddish gems.

What I will say about Tan is that I appreciate his quick responses, and his videos. I think it''s really nice to see a gem in a video to see zoning, color along the pavillion (that''s very important) and otherwise. As for color, he can answer your questions, but it also must be up to the buyer to ascertain what the quality is like from the photo/video. In my experience with Tan, the most risky stones to buy are blue spinels, but I feel that is the case for many vendors. They just never look like they do in their photos/videos.
 

Rockit

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Interesting about the blue spinel and modifiers. Many times, I've dealt with a particular cutter who, I am convinced, just can't "see" blues as I do, especially blues with grey modifiers. His photos are actually more accurate than his very articulate and GIA-esque verbal descriptions, LOL! And, his descriptions for other colored stones are dead-on. Like I wrote earlier, we all perceive color differently.
 

Sagebrush

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Kismet,

Nice image. I think that image conveys the sense of what cornflower blue looks like. I agree that the GIA description would be technically more accurate, but it is important to remember that connoisseurship in gemstones is as much art as science. I might add that GIA insists on using the term "violetish" to refer to stones that are truly "purplish".

Cornflower blue stones do exist. I have uploaded one example and have more. Fact is, these stones are so rare that you might find one single example in the whole Tucson show if you are lucky.

Best,

2266ct-kashmir-sapphire loose.jpg
 

T L

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Richard,
A lot of dealers would call that stone Kashmir blue too, especially since it''s so silky and very saturated in blue color.
1.gif
 

T L

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Date: 6/15/2010 3:45:28 PM
Author: Rockit
Interesting about the blue spinel and modifiers. Many times, I've dealt with a particular cutter who, I am convinced, just can't 'see' blues as I do, especially blues with grey modifiers. His photos are actually more accurate than his very articulate and GIA-esque verbal descriptions, LOL! And, his descriptions for other colored stones are dead-on. Like I wrote earlier, we all perceive color differently.
We do all perceive color differently. For me, I almost always assume a modifier is present, since vivid gems are so incredibly rare. It may be difficult to see, but take that same gem and place it next to a more saturated stone of the same hue and tone, and you will see it more easily.
 
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