Not sure if the linking option on here is working as it should...
Good - I just wanted to make sure you were aware, as it looked like from a prior post that you drew the same conclusion as I did about EGL from the tutorials! Hopefully it is USA, and I am sure you can rely on WF to give you an honest opinion on it.
This is correct. We’ve tried to make it simple to tell what’s in house versus not (graphic attached).
Hi Mara. I hope the graphic in my acknowledgment to Belle answered your in-house vs. not in-house question.
Looks to me lke they''re all "pre-starred" for you...so that WF, for any out of house diamonds, runs them through some screens, based on stated characteristics, and gives them anywhere one to four stars based on those details.
Date: 10/15/2006 7:28:38 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Hi Mara. I hope the graphic in my acknowledgment to Belle answered your in-house vs. not in-house question.
Regarding labs: The AGS and GIA are the only labs we use to grade our in-house inventory but beautiful diamonds can be graded anywhere. Our search doesn’t penalize options because of the lab’s name. We do describe our experience with other labs - and policies accompanying an EGL purchase - to clients. We like for the client to make an informed decision for him/herself. We also protect clients by bringing any diamond in-house for our own assessment before selling it.
Regarding ratings; here is text from the top of the WF ratings explanation:
“All in-house diamonds have been analyzed firsthand. Outside diamonds available to us are rated based on available information (we cannot guarantee details of outside diamonds).”
We provide a rating for outside diamonds based on info the supplier has provided to us. If a client is interested in that diamond we will contact the supplier, get additional details and get back to the client with a more decisive opinion. We hope the preliminary rating is helpful and I''ll reiterate that we bring any outside diamond in to be sure it meets the quality standards which were advertised.
The top rating (five stars) is not awarded unless the diamond is already in-house and has passed our strictest judgments. Currently this is limited to ‘A Cut Above’ diamonds produced to Brian Gavin’s standards. The four star rating applies to most in-house Expert Selection diamonds (which we ‘expertly selected’).Four stars may also apply to outside diamonds where information the supplier provided is promising. As per the WF ratings notes, fewer than 4 stars doesn’t necessarily mean ‘bad,’ it may mean the supplier gives limited info.
As internet commerce grows, our ratings are intended to motivate our suppliers to provide more and more information. They are aware of the growth of e-trade and we hope they will react to this system by supplying more up-front information to support their goods; in some cases this is already happening.
We are happy to provide decisive ratings on our in-house diamonds, and hope having provisional ratings for outside diamonds is useful to shoppers.
...also, not a thread jack.
JA does offer virtual options, and does not offer EGL anything...at least as an obvious option to choose from.
the real reason this is hypothetical is that you wouldn''t do this...which is also your point.
Date: 10/17/2006 12:57:40 PM
Author:
John, I agree that beautiful diamonds can be graded anywhere, but, I feel like I have to say this... if your search does not penalize based on EGL, the sales people at WF will refuse to supply EGL reports when requested - at least that was the case for us a few months ago. Back in July, when we were first looking, we requested several reports on diamonds that were generally very similar on paper, but that we wanted more info on. We were aware that the EGL was not upgradable from the disclaimer on the WF website, but no where on the website did it actually say that WF would not sell or give info on EGL graded stones (actually specifically disclaiming that EGL was not upgradable made it sound like WF would sell them, just not upgrade!)
Using a cut chart that we had, we had selected stones with good depth and table sizes, but wanted the angles which were not on the website (at that time being new we did not know that EGL did not supply angles, but height percentages). These were the two responses received from the WF sales department...
'Thank you for the several inquiries you made with Whiteflash. I
appreciate your interest. At this time I wanted to acknowledge that we did
receive your e-mails. I am happy to request information to assist you
in narrowing your selection.
In wanting to consult you and assist in locating the best selection
what is most important to you? The actual size, the color or clarity? I
would like to narrow the selection to the finest 3, although I do not
recommend EGL. Our database includes in house and virtual selections,
not in house. This causes all diamonds include EGL diamonds to be
listed in our database.
I am very happy to assist in any way I can. Is there by chance another
way to communicate. Perhaps a number I could call.
I look forward to serving you and providing certificates of the best.'
I responded that we had selected all of them based on color, clarity, carat, price, and initial data that was available. That we wanted the reports so that we could decide if we wanted to pursue them, and that we would have an appraiser check out any stone that we got.
I received the below response, and never did get to view the reports...
'I did receive your email and see that you have an appraiser which we
endorse. We want you to be confident in your purchase.
After reviewing the selections you are considering, each of the
diamonds were EGL graded diamonds that were SI1 or SI2. As I mentioned in my
previous e-mail, Whiteflash does not prefer EGL due to their loose
grading system. Time and experience have proven that such SI diamonds are
usually very visually included. I will have to graciously decline
pursuing the diamonds.
If you allow, I will be happy to search for diamonds which will also
have ideal parameters and be more visually appealing. Here are two I
suggest:'
I have to say, at that time, being relatively new to buying diamonds at the time (and not understanding the EGL thing), that was a real turn off, and I suspect when the WF sales department replies to others like this, it is probably turning off a lot of other potential customers. Does it hurt to just give the report requested?! That was all we were asking for at the time! We wanted to make a decision ourselves if we wanted to pursue a diamond, and were just looking for more data at that time. It felt to a us at the time, that WF was saying 'we don't want your business'. And, the first email did not really educate as to why WF did not like EGL just 'I do not recommend EGL' (the second email references that she said in the first that she had said that EGL had a loose grading system, but as you can see this was not actually mentioned).
From a sales standpoint, it would probably be better just to give a copy of the reports that the person requests when clicking on the 'request report' link. Then, if the person wanted to further pursue one of the diamonds, THEN educate the person about experiences with EGL, bring up the concerns for inclusions, eyecleanliness, etc., instead of outright refusing to provide the info (also the EGL reports requested could have been EGL USA which has a bit better reputation - at least look to see if they are EGL USA v. EGL elsewhere!). Doing it this way you have established a semi-relationship and the consumer likely would want to know the salespersons concerns, as opposed to just getting blocked from the get-go. The way it was done does not allow the consumer a chance to even make an 'informed decision', as the info is never available that way. It also does not really educate the consumer as to why EGL is not preferred by WF.
Perhaps a link on the WF website re: experiences with EGL? That may make it easier for newbies who do not understand when they get an email back like that.
I am trying to give you a perspective from a consumer standpoint, and hope that this helps - I know WF is very well respected, and John you have supplied an enormous amount of valuable knowledge yourself (not to mention being very charismatic!). I took WF off my 'do not like' list (and added to my 'respected vendors' list!) when I found this forum and became better educated - those were my thoughts however when I was new and I want you to know that WF may be inadvertently turning off potential customers who do not understand WHY WF will not give them an EGL report as requested. We now understand EGL/in house/out of house, etc, etc. But we all have to start learning somewhere, and in the diamond business you are generally working with a large proportion of customers with little knowledge on the topic who are learning, and may not understand!
Sorry for the thread jack, and sorry so long winded!
Date: 10/17/2006 4:58:48 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Thank you for the well-ordered perspective - and the kind comments.
First, please accept our sincere apologies that the EGL options were not pursued to your satisfaction.
We do sell EGL-graded diamonds, with restrictions, but there are also instances where we’re not comfortable supporting a particular stone. Some suppliers cannot provide C/P angles or describe inclusions. These obstacles or other flags may have been raised in your case. Regardless, the explanation you received wasn''t sufficient. I think your suggestion for providing more education to inquiring clients about different labs & standards is a good one. We have several articles on this topic in our education section which could easily be linked for the customer.
For the record, I assure you the salesperson intended to act in your best interests. We try to balance global perspective (like not discriminating against a lab out-of-hand) with appropriate counseling and caution. Some of our experienced salespeople voice stronger feelings about the inconsistency of EGL than others. If we do pass on selling a diamond, EGL or otherwise, it’s possible to take the info to someone who will be comfortable dealing it. There are cases where we’ve put clients in touch with other sellers to source something outside of our comfort zone.
We’re not a company filling orders for widgets:This stuff is complex. We try to use our expertise and resources to locate what can be supported as the best balance of value and quality for clients.
Regarding WF Ratings: Some EGL diamonds may get a favorable mark initially due to pricing. Although we may not openly endorse these selections as a company our search engine will still identify them for browsers seeking the big picture. There are people who have only a few thousand dollars to spend but are seeking as much ‘bang for the buck’ as possible.
: ) you’ve been helpful in many ways. I’m glad you have come to understand more about the trade and we’re thankful for your input here.
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