What do you think of this Spessartine?

[Translucent]

OOOOoooh, this really neat 14.78 c. heart shaped Spessartine just happened to wander into my hands
and I was wondering what I should/could be paying for it. The colour is a very lovely med. orange and
it is eye clean. The only thing I can see is that the cut is not so good just below the bow of the heart.
It''s a bit off kilter.

So what I''ve learned here from the coloured stone forum is:

1. size .......good
2. colour.....very good
3. shape.....not the best choice(heart)
4. clarity.....very good
5. cut .........not good


What does one do?? What does one do??

 

[MINE!!]

maybe you could have it recut?

 

[MJO]

What are the dimensions of the stone? can you post a picture? Is it red or orange? If orange does it have any brown tint?

 

[movie zombie]

and what was the price tag when it wandered into your hands? difficult to say what you should be paying if don''t know the asking price. is it from a private individual or someone who deals with stones on a regular basis?

peace, movie zombie

 

[valeria101]

Just how bad is that cut ? The shape might not be so much of a detraction if it well done or could be corrected without much loss... A cuter could answer that, if there is any way to show them the stone. Is there some return policy ?

14 cts sounds great for fine orange garnet !

 

[Translucent]

Will try to post a pic and measurements a little later today.

The colour has no brown in it and is quite a saturated med orange.

The heart shape has no distortion but the underside facets just below the bow(dip) are
a bit out of wack.

I wonder if the facets in question can be corrected without a full recut. The stone would
surely lose at least 2 c. if recut. Two carats of lovely clear orange(sigh).

Would recutting it into a round be a possible or sane option?( yikes, it hurt even typing that question).

Asking price is a little under 3K Canadian.

I guess a heart shape of this size would lend itself into becomming another pendant. But then, one cannot
have too many pendants....

 

[MJO]

Date: 5/19/2005 2:35:39 PM
Author: Translucent


Will try to post a pic and measurements a little later today.

The colour has no brown in it and is quite a saturated med orange.

The heart shape has no distortion but the underside facets just below the bow(dip) are
a bit out of wack.

I wonder if the facets in question can be corrected without a full recut. The stone would
surely lose at least 2 c. if recut. Two carats of lovely clear orange(sigh).

Would recutting it into a round be a possible or sane option?( yikes, it hurt even typing that question).

Asking price is a little under 3K Canadian.

I guess a heart shape of this size would lend itself into becomming another pendant. But then, one cannot
have too many pendants....

Could you post a picture? If it is an eye clean stone with good color and good material it is a good price provided in the recut staying over 10cts and you like heart shaped pendents. I would think a round recut would go under 10cts. To me heart shaped stones are nice but have a limited market appeal. Do you know if it is Namibian, Nigerian or a newer find? Namibian stones are ussually the best color since there is no iron to tint it brown.

 

[Translucent]

I would think a round recut would go under 10cts.

MJO, darn, what a bummer.

 

[MINE!!]

You know.. Around here I have seen some recuts by Richard Homer that lost Carat Weight but increase clarity, and beauty. Search Richard Homer. YOu does concave cutting and it may be worth it. Besides, although carat weight is nice.. beauty is a number one factor. That is a nice size for a spess. and from what I gather it may be a rare find.....

Post pic if you get the chance. I am a BIGGGGGG spess, mand garnet fan!!!

 

[BWise]

I will say hold it. For one thing you don''t like the shape (I don''t care for heart either). And most importantly the cut is no good. Of course you can have it recut. But why pay for the extra carats when you are ready to take it off, with quite a fee if you go to Richard Homer.

Hope this will help.

I love red stones too. Here is the spassertite from my collection. 7.95ct, vvs, untreated, with good cut. One of my favorite!

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 5/19/2005 4:44:42 PM
Author: Translucent

I would think a round recut would go under 10cts.

MJO, darn, what a bummer.

Translucent,

Depending on the depth of the heart''s notch, which would determine how much weight would be lost, you might consider a recut to a modified trillion shape. It might keep the weight above 10 ct. and in my opinion would be a more marketable shape.

Richard M.

 

[Translucent]

Finally some pics of the stone in question!

Is the orange/yellow mandarine garnet more expensive than the orange/red?
Is the orange /red supply drying up too?

Seller does not know the origin of this stone although I am pretty sure it is Namibian.
It matches the colour of previous Namibian stones I have seen.

 

[Translucent]

another....

 

[Translucent]

Yet another......

 

[Richard M.]

Nice stone! But I''ll make a public bet it''s not Namibian.

Namibian spessartite is nearly pure mananese orange with no red or brown iron overtones. A Namibian stone the size of yours would almost certainly have eye-visible inclusions. Even small stones are included but bring high prices because of their remarkable Fanta Orange color. At Tucson this year I saw one clean large Namibian oval but it was very spendy.

This stone is almost certainly African, probably from Nigeria, but Tanzania and Madagascar occasionally produce fine spessartite too. Now and then fine large stones from Pakistan, Brazil and the U.S. show up.

As to color, today''s market seems to prefer the purer orange hues although fine aurora red spessartites like the one posted by yingh above have traditionally brought the highest prices. Tastes may be changing. Yet at Tucson and elsewhere I''ve seen hefty price tags attached to both colors. There were many yellow-orange stones priced at the $750 to $900/ct. retail level in Tucson too. Brown overtones are the big no-no and bring prices down a lot.

Richard M.

 

[Richard M.]

In my first resonse I got so involved in origin and color I forgot to look closely at the cut. It''s hard to tell from the angle but from the bottom image it appears the pavilion has been cheated/skewed badly to preserve weight, with all the depth on one side. Is that what you meant by the cut not being so good "below the bow of the heart?" That''s a serious problem. That''s why the stone has a big window. Recutting to proper proportions will probably reduce the weight below 10 ct.

Richard M.

 

[Translucent]

Date: 5/22/2005 4:02:29 PM
Author: Richard M.
Nice stone! But I''ll make a public bet it''s not Namibian.


Namibian spessartite is nearly pure mananese orange with no red or brown iron overtones. A Namibian stone the size of yours would almost certainly have eye-visible inclusions. Even small stones are included but bring high prices because of their remarkable Fanta Orange color. At Tucson this year I saw one clean large Namibian oval but it was very spendy.


Richard M.

Richard,

I guess the Namibians I saw were the "not the so expensive" kind!

This stone is eye clean so I guess that rules out Namibia. It certainly is not Fanta orange but it is lighter and more orange
than the pictures depict. There is no brown overtone.

That fancy not so good heart shaped cut is just driving me crazy. The underside of the stone is not lopsided as perhaps my bad
picture indicates. The underside upper facets don''t line up straight.

I wonder if some nice forum member can give me the proper proportions of a heart shaped cut. Or maybe post a pic
of a near perfect specimen. Someone out there must sort of like heart shapes. And if you''re to embarassed to admit it,
just e-mail me!!! hahaha.

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 5/22/2005 6:22:16 PM
Author: Translucent

Date: 5/22/2005 4:02:29 PM



I wonder if some nice forum member can give me the proper proportions of a heart shaped cut. Or maybe post a pic

of a near perfect specimen. Someone out there must sort of like heart shapes. And if you''re to embarassed to admit it,

just e-mail me!!! hahaha.

The secret is in the pavilion angles, which "set" the stone''s size and shape. Pavilion culet angles of 41 or 42 degrees are usually called for with spessartite. Crown angles can vary but are often set at 39 degrees.

The best thing would be to ask someone like Michael E. to calculate a recut with his GemCad program. If he agrees he can probably calculate the weight of your recut stone. By entering data on your stone plus the desired shape and cutting angles, the program can simulate the actual cutting process on-screen. It can then generate a cutting plan that would make the best of your stone''s size and shape.

Good luck!

Richard M.

 

[MJO]

Date: 5/22/2005 2:34:51 PM
Author: Translucent

Finally some pics of the stone in question!

Is the orange/yellow mandarine garnet more expensive than the orange/red?
Is the orange /red supply drying up too?

Seller does not know the origin of this stone although I am pretty sure it is Namibian.
It matches the colour of previous Namibian stones I have seen.

Hi Translucent,

It is probubly Nigerian. Namibian stones have no iron in them and therefore have no red. I would pass on this stone. It looks very shallow and off centered to me. Also the color does not look ideal. I have a person in NYC that has a well cut oval in that color that is over 10cts and will cost you less in the long run since it doesn''t have to be recut. E-mail me if you want the details on the stone. I can have you get in touch with him directly if you''ld like

 

[movie zombie]

if anyone has a lead on where i could find a clear red spess like yingh''s, i''d appreciate hearing about it. that stone appears to not be masked and be pretty translucent for a ''dark'' color......

peace, movie zombie

 

[BWise]

Date: 5/23/2005 11:51:34 AM
Author: movie zombie
if anyone has a lead on where i could find a clear red spess like yingh's, i'd appreciate hearing about it. that stone appears to not be masked and be pretty translucent for a 'dark' color......

peace, movie zombie

I got it from eBay. Had to admit that it has a little big belly, but does not affect the beauty.

Origin: Nigeria
Weight: 7.95 carats
Size: 11 x 10 x 7.5 mm
Clarity: VVS Top eye clean

Here is another picture of this candy.

As Richard said, eBay has some good stuff if you look carefully. Here is an orange one - I've bought from this seller before.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=282&item=4995754175&tc=photo

 

[Translucent]

Thank you, everyone, for all the good advice. The stone will be sent to a cutter to have its present shape evaluated
and to give me a forcast of what might be its future. It definately needs more fire. I too, am not a fan of
concave cuts except for fairly light coloured stones, so I''m itching to know the diagnosis for this rock.

What are the most expensive and sought after colours in Spessartine? Is it the Fanta orange or the clear red?
Could someone post some examples.

I just got a package of clear red stones also.

I''m a bit confused!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 5/25/2005 2:29:39 PM
Author: Translucent

What are the most expensive and sought after colours in Spessartine? Is it the Fanta orange or the clear red?

Fanta orange... no brown, no gray. Even loads of inclusions are forgiven for the perfect color (what else is new).

Sometimes the color is called "tangerine orange" and it is supposed to be bright and cheerful, orange towards yellow not red.

Thiese look right on my mark:

The page about spessartite at Pala gives a superb orange round as standard (link) and then says reddish is more valuable a paragraph below. It is a bit confusing... I wish the bright orange was cheaper than reddish, but this isn''t the case with any seller I know of (Pala does not publish prices, as you know).

 

[Richard M.]

It''s hard to beat this Richard Hughes/Pala primer: Spessartite

Purists refer only to Namibian pure manganese spessarties as "Mandarin" garnet. But the name has been appropriated by sellers of Nigerian and other spessartites and is sometimes used to market much less expensive and brilliant hessonite garnets.

It''s very difficult to visually separate reddish spessartite-almandine (Spessartite) and spessartite-pyrope (Malaia) mixes. They are very similar in appearance and need to be sorted out on the basis of R.I. and spectrum. That can also be true of the orange Malaias.

The value of anything is what a willing buyer pays a willing seller at any given moment. In the current market the pure orange spessartites seem to be strongly preferred by gem buyers and command rather high prices. That was not true in the past, maybe because almandine-spessartite mixes were often the only spessartites available. Pure orange spessartites were very rare until the Nigerian and Namibian "strikes" a few years ago.

Richard M.

 

[Translucent]

Ana , Richard M., MJO,

Again, thanks for your very, very helpful posts.

So what I got from y''all and Pala''s site is that:


The most coveted are Namibians with fabulous Fanta orange colour, even if not so eye clean.

and if those suckers are not available....

The Nigerians are next, with the red fire colour being the most coveted.

and that......

Stones from California are more yellow/orange(on the light side). Yet quite beautiful.

Finally, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Michael_E]

Translucent,
Richard M. is correct in that that stone would probably best be recut to a triangular shape. If recut to a round you would need at least 43% depth for the pavilion, another 14% or 15% for the crown and a half millimeter or so for the girdle. Add it all up and the best that you can hope for with a round recut is to get away with 57% to 65% depth to width ratio. That stone looks pretty shallow. If it has a depth of say 6.5mm then the best that you could get for width would be around 11+mm. This would equate to about maybe 5 or 6 carats. Quite a weight loss, but it would look a whole lot better.
While beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, there are some statistical things occuring with all of the beholders in the market that set prices for each stone type and color. That particular stone would actually be worth more if properly recut, at a much lower weight, than it is right now. That''s because the bulk of the people in a given market will actually pay much more for a really well cut stone than for a very poorly cut stone, in this garnet category. Now, if it were a ruby, it would be very difficult to say that and you''d probably lose your shirt in recutting it with that sort of weight loss. I vote to have it recut and would definitely look into a concave cut, since you may be able to get away with a shallower cut and therefore a greater width for a given depth, (I''m not sure about that since I don''t do concave cutting). Make sure to post the after pics if you do have this done!

 

[Translucent]

Date: 5/25/2005 6:05:29 PM
Author: Michael_E
Translucent,

Richard M. is correct in that that stone would probably best be recut to a triangular shape. If recut to a round you would need at least 43% depth for the pavilion, another 14% or 15% for the crown and a half millimeter or so for the girdle. Add it all up and the best that you can hope for with a round recut is to get away with 57% to 65% depth to width ratio. That stone looks pretty shallow. If it has a depth of say 6.5mm then the best that you could get for width would be around 11+mm. This would equate to about maybe 5 or 6 carats. Quite a weight loss, but it would look a whole lot better.

You are absolutely right! After looking at the stone again, the shallowness is only going to be remedied by a smaller diameter. I too, now
suspect that a recut will take it below 10cwt in order for the proportions to look balanced.

While beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, there are some statistical things occuring with all of the beholders in the market that set prices for each stone type and color. That particular stone would actually be worth more if properly recut, at a much lower weight, than it is right now. That''s because the bulk of the people in a given market will actually pay much more for a really well cut stone than for a very poorly cut stone, in this garnet category. Now, if it were a ruby, it would be very difficult to say that and you''d probably lose your shirt in recutting it with that sort of weight loss. I vote to have it recut and would definitely look into a concave cut, since you may be able to get away with a shallower cut and therefore a greater width for a given depth, (I''m not sure about that since I don''t do concave cutting). Make sure to post the after pics if you do have this done!

You know, the minute I saw that stone, I wondered why nobody had snatched it up before me. It''s the cut. Most people I show it to
just can''t seem to even appreciate the colour. So right again, that stone, if it had been properly cut, would have been long gone....

Hmmmm....I''ve a lot to think about.

 

[MINE!!]

OOOOPPPSSSS!! WRONG PICTURE>>> HAVE TO GET THEM TO TAKE THAT PICTURE OUT!!

HERE IS MINE>> PROMISE!!

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

 

[movie zombie]

just wanted to comment that this has been a very useful thread to follow. lots of good info for those of us interested in color gems. thanks everyone!

peace, movie zombie

 

[BWise]

Speaking about orange spess. What do you think of this one? Just bought it (haven''t received it yet!) 7.07ct