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What do you think about Annsia Playing golf in the mens league?

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Iceman

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Whats everybodys thoughts on this topic?

Why do women feel they need to do these things ? Same with mens clubs "Rotary" for example.

Then can a guy go into the womens Lpga tour and clean house and take the money?

The women at golds gym were I work out have there own gym but can come over to our side and use it too?

It seems like they want both worlds?

Im a guy can you help me to understand this?????
 

fire&ice

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It's Annika. She may not even make the cut.

I can only speak from my experience. I do not like to play Tennis w/ women. Most do not hit the ball hard enough. I get a better work out with the guys. I believe Annika just wants to raise her game.

I think her motives are somewhat pure. Besides, I think she has brought positive attention to the game of golf.

That said, I belong to a volunteer group that is all women. *We* would welcome any man to join. We need all the help we can get. Not to mention - a different perspective.

Until you walk in a women's shoes, you will never understand the subtle barriers that we encounter simply because we don't have a "brain" down there.
..kidding..kidding.

I have to say - the majority of the men in my life are pretty enlightened. And easily "played"
kidding again!!!!

Rank, care to wager in? Also, has your perspective changed at all now that you have a girl?
 

Rank Amateur

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Sure, I'll chime in!

She has no "right" to play in a men's tournament. The PGA has the "right" to exclude women if they so choose (which they do not), just like the LPGA has the right to exclude men (which THEY do).

A sponsor has the right to invite whomever they please for whatever reason. It doesn't even need to be a good golfer. There may be a few specific rules about who can play on a sponsor's exemption, but gender is not one of them. Her participation would be much more of a feat and more notable if she qualified like (almost) everybody else had to.

If she does well, more power to her; however, my fragile male ego is keeping from rooting for her.
 

sturkiej

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I have to get in on this one.....I played in High School with woman even though some of them were very good you could always bet on hearing the whole don't get beat by a girl thing, I have no problem with it AS LONG as they play from the same tees, although I do feel she would have avoided a lot of the "whining" had she qualified along with everyone one else. There are good points to giving out exemptions, see Hank Kuehne, but this one has "publicity" written all over it. Annika is an excellent golfer and after her first round has a very good shot at playing on the weekend, but a woman could not compete every week on tour with the men, the courses are a lot more difficult than the ones the woman play. Lacking the length off the tee the guys have they would have a very hard time making the cut every week.
 

fire&ice

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Alright, I thought she *is* trying to qualify as we speak. I thought she *is* teeing from the man's tee. Can someone clarify?

Fragile male ego - ummmm. This is something I can not understand. So what if a women beats you? As enlightened as my hubby is, he gets very competive & mad when he is losing to me in singles Tennis. That said, he thinks I am a "stud" when I play the same level game against his friends and win.

And Rank, I can't resist..... Maybe she doesn't have the *right* to play....but the question is *should* she.


I have revisited the whole Martha/Augusta thing. I know that Augusta Nat. has the right to deny women memberships. While I still maintain Augusta *should* admit women, I think Martha Burke was not picking the right battle. Now, if Annika applied......

And, I am curious Rank....What if Daddy's little girl was denied a spot on the Men's Tennis team if her game was of that level? For argument, the Men's Tennis Team plays in the Championships & many move on w/ scholarships. The Women's Tennis Team isn't any good - no scholarships for them.

Again, I have not walked in a man's shoes. I think I am good company; and, I can not understand why someone wouldn't want me around just because of my sex.
 

sturkiej

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Ok to clarify, some tournaments during the year are invitationals, of course meaning by invitation only i.e. the Masters, Buick Invitaional and so on, the others have "monday" qualifiers from which they take the top so many finishers to complete the field for the tournament that week. Annika didn't go through a "qualifier" she was given a sponsors exemption from Bank of America, the sponsor of The Colonial. This is what created the problem with the guys they say she should have had to qualify to play rather than be given an exemption that could have gone to someone that is actually trying to make the tour on a weekly basis. I restate my position that I don't care if she plays, the PGA tour is for "the best golfers in the world", she is clearly the best "woman" golfer in the world, but just from playing golf and watching for a really long time I think it is all well and good that she plays one tourney but I don't think she could compete on a weekly basis.
 

fire&ice

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I did not know of this. I completely concur that she should have "qualified". It is precisely this *entitlement* that pisses people off. I suppose smart marketing for Bank of Am. Lots of people watching. And, it's their show - but don't they have to follow some sort of "protocol".

I don't really follow golf anymore. It makes sense that she would not be able to compete w/ the PGA. In my novice eyes, the distance appears to be a problem. I do think that Tennis is a more level playing field.
 

sturkiej

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I would assume that you don't agree with McEnroe when he says that all of the top 100 men in tennis could beat the Williams sisters???? Not being a tennis person I think that it is kinda silly to think that, I would say that tennis would create one of the most level playing fields the difference, I guess, being how hard a man would hit the ball vs. how hard a woman would hit the ball.
 

fire&ice

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Of course I disagreed with McEnroe.
He also refused a match w/ the Williams sisters. He is no fool. He remembers Billy Jean King. Also, it seems that the power only games of past is in the past somewhat.

Both Golf & Tennis are much about timing. Tennis is less about distance. Women & Men *do* compete with one another in doubles. Except for the serve, I never felt the weaker partner.

Thinking out loud here - but maintaining volocity for distance would require more fullness & power of the swing. I don't think a women, up against the best of men, can compete in golf. I don't know if muscle building is enough. I think I read that men's rotations are longer - natuarally giving the ball more distance. But, I don't know. The papers are noting that she had no problem getting on the green. She had trouble with her putting.

I've tried to find current news. Anyone know Friday's results or current standings?

Men & Women - at the end of the day - Viva la Difference!
 

sturkiej

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Annika shot 71 or +1 on friday the lead was -5, she is currently through 6 holes and she is +1 on the round, +2 for the tournament which at this point the lead is currently -8 so ten shots off of that is +1 and she would not make the cut.
 

DiehardSearcher

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Annika has every right to play as a sponsor's exemption. That is why the sponsors get exemptions. If they should relenquish the exemptions to allow for another qualifier, why not argue against the policy of exemptions rather than this particular selection? This is not the first time that a sponsor has used their exemption in a manner that appears to be publicity oriented.

I suggest that the neanderthal's of this world create a MPGA, include the "men at birth" clause in it, and play away. They would have every right to do so. I, on the otherhand, welcome the competition. This is a barrier breaking move, and many times that requires a helping hand. I commend Bank Of America for benefiting financially from an evolved decision.

Why does who started this thread not surprise me?
 

fire&ice

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----------------
On 5/23/2003 4:16
1 PM DiehardSearcher wrote:

Annika has every right to play as a sponsor's exemption. That is why the sponsors get exemptions. If they should relenquish the exemptions to allow for another qualifier, why not argue against the policy of exemptions rather than this particular selection?
----------------
I don't think the exemption helped her politically. That's my position on it. It's moot at this point - she is 3+ (according to the 5
0 news) and looks like she will not qualify.

I wonder if it's the end of her trying.
 

Iceman

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The problem is whats going to set presents here.

Its the money you make at a tournment.

So if they let this happen then the guys have the right to go to the LPGA and clean house on the money.

Woman keep trying to step into mens clubs , mens locker rooms ect , but if a man tried to get into a womans club or sport it would not fly ???? Can somebody explain whats good for one but is not good for the other.


Even if she did not make the cut, the wheel has started to screw things up.

The answer is there should be a mixed league !
 

fire&ice

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----------------
On 5/23/2003 8:42:24 PM Iceman wrote:


Woman keep trying to step into mens clubs , mens locker rooms ect , but if a man tried to get into a womans club or sport it would not fly ???? Can somebody explain whats good for one but is not good for the other.

The answer is there should be a mixed league !
----------------
Ice, please read what *I* have to say sometimes. I would welcome men in my clubs. I don't want to exclude men.

LPGA = Ladies Pro Golf Assoc.
PGA = Pro Golf Assoc. -I don't see Men in that title.
 

DiehardSearcher

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So if they let this happen then the guys have the right to go to the LPGA and clean house on the money.
The answer is there should be a mixed league !
No, guys do not have a right to enter a women's only league/club/association/etc. Women do not have a right to enter a men's only league/club/association/etc. However, the PGA, NBA, NFL, MLB, are mixed leagues. To my knowledge, none of them have restrictions on gender. The LPGA, WNBA do have restrictions on gender. If you wish to start a MPGA, go right ahead, I doubt it will garner much attention.

My opinion is as follows:
1. I am totally happy with women having their own leagues, clubs, etc.
2. I am totally happy with women & men competing in all areas of life.
3. If someone wants to start a men's only club, league, etc. that is totally fine. Though, I'd rather see them all compete together.


I think your points hold more water when trying to figure out why Martha wants to join Augusta. She cried quite a bit about that one, but in the end noone really cared. I think that is because men's clubs and women's clubs are socially acceptable.
 

emnightingale

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Oh, thank god. I waited four days to look at this thread, for reasons which should be obvious to those who know me at all on these forums. I am happy to see that I had little to worry about.

I am thrilled Annika participated in the PGA. I wish she had played better and hung in there longer. That said, she held her own against some of the best golfers in the country and I am happy that she got as far as she did. Regardless of how she does, it is still not the level of talent/skill that keeps women in or out of the PGA or any other sports association - it's how willing we are to accept them being a part of it.


I also very much liked DieHard's take on the exemption issue:

"Annika has every right to play as a sponsor's exemption. That is why the sponsors get exemptions. If they should relenquish the exemptions to allow for another qualifier, why not argue against the policy of exemptions rather than this particular selection? This is not the first time that a sponsor has used their exemption in a manner that appears to be publicity oriented.... I, on the otherhand, welcome the competition. This is a barrier breaking move, and many times that requires a helping hand. I commend Bank Of America for benefiting financially from an evolved decision."


As to the issue Ice brought up:

"So if they let this happen then the guys have the right to go to the LPGA and clean house on the money. Woman keep trying to step into mens clubs , mens locker rooms ect , but if a man tried to get into a womans club or sport it would not fly ???? Can somebody explain whats good for one but is not good for the other."


My response would be that organizations such as the LPGA and WNBA were formed *in response* to being largely excluded from the world of sports. My guess is that when women receive full participation in athletics, the LPGA/WNBA/etc will cease to exist.


Think of it in childrens' terms. Suppose all of the popular kids (the A group) sit at the best table in the lunchroom and all of the unpopular kids (the B group) who wish fervently to sit at the table are excluded. Even though the lunch monitor tells the A group the rules say they cannot exclude the B group, the A group makes the B group feel very unwelcome. So rather than be miserable sitting on the sidelines, B group decides to choose another table in a less desirable location and sit there, together. There is plenty of room at the A group's table, and if the A group would let all of the B group kids sit with them, there would be no need for two tables. But they will not, because the B group is not cool enough. Then, the A group comes over and complains that the B group will not allow them to sit at the B group table. This makes the B group angry because if the A group wanted to sit with them, they could have welcomed them to their own table. Instead, they see the A group as wanting to have control over both tables. So they get the lunch monitor to make a rule that the A group cannot sit at the B table, even though there is still no rule that the B group cannot sit at the A table. Unfair? Depends on where you're standing. But if the A group would allow equal and fair participation by the B group, the B group would cease to exist entirely. That is a long and drawn out analogy, but I think it kind of explains the phenomenon you are describing.
 

StevL

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Don't forget, there is one more lady to play in a PGA event this year. She went throught the qualifier.
 

fire&ice

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----------------
On 5/27/2003 6:38:59 PM StevL wrote:

Don't forget, there is one more lady to play in a PGA event this year. She went throught the qualifier.
----------------
Ahhh...a Gentleman always adds succient mystery.

Hope you are feeling well & the construction is progressing!
 

Aprile

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I confess I am an ignoramus when it comes to golf however I agree...I don't see any gender specified in PGA.

I am however very familiar w/gyms so Ice I'm curious...why do you think women should stay on their own side? I work out at a gym & use the weight room 3x/week. I workout side by side w/both men & women. I do see that the majority of the women tend to lift for the purpose of toning however there are 2 serious female bodybuilders there (one competes nationally. I am somewhere in the middle. We have a *female* gym here as well, Curves. I personally like the other gym. I like to challenge myself in the weight room; set goals & strive to reach them. I don't see where gender is significant.
 

Rank Amateur

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----------------
On 5/27/2003 6:38:59 PM StevL wrote:

Don't forget, there is one more lady to play in a PGA event this year. She went throught the qualifier.
----------------
She played from a different, much shorter set of tees. She will not be shooting 71-74 like Annika did. She'll shoot 85-85 and finish dead last.

In the end, I'm not sure what Annika proved. She played great, but finished in the bottom 10% of the field. Maybe she should try her skills on the Nationwide Tour. IT would be quite a shot in the arm for that tour and she actually might better find out what she's made of.
 

StevL

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________________
In the end, I'm not sure what Annika proved. She played great, but finished in the bottom 10% of the field. Maybe she should try her skills on the Nationwide Tour. IT would be quite a shot in the arm for that tour and she actually might better find out what she's made of.
_________________

I think she proved to herself where she stands. She learned a lot from just being there. She admitted that she will work on many things in her game and learned where her weaknesses really are. She even said she now knows how to practice certain aspects of her game (kind of hard to imagine after accomplishing what she has). She ranks low in the LPGA putting stats and this PGA tournament just brought that to the forefront.

I thought she struck it better than anyone I saw on the first day, the second day was much different. With that said, she hit it so well on day one and only carded a 71 (only as I could do better
) the leaders shot a few 61 in the days to follow. She finished 96 out of the 107 that participated, I don't think that number offers much success to many people. I think it is much deeper than that number, she knows what she learned from this and I do hope to see her play another PGA event in the future. I don't think she would do much better, but at least she was fun to watch and handled herself extremely well. She would be well received again.

R/A
I know you follow golf. My sons high school golf team just got their web site up and running a few weeks ago. They have some great "World Golf News" links that change daily. Take a look at www.chapingolf.com and you can even join their chat room which started up this week
 

sturkiej

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The complaint that came from tour players was not just about a "girl playing w/the guys", it was that she recieved an exemption that could have gone to someone that is trying to make a living playing golf. They took a paycheck from someone simply for show. When Annika decided she wanted to "test" herself wouldn't a true test have been to see "if" she could have qualified. The PGA tour doesn't exclude women, nothing says women can't play, the women on the LPGA tour play to pay the bills, on the PGA tour they would live in a box. It's about being able to make money, women simply can't compete on the courses the men play, you can't argue that. There are probably only 4 or 5 women that could even "qualify" from the men's tees: Sorenstam, Karrie Webb, Se Ri Pak, Grace Park and maybe Julie Inkster, but even the best of womens golf couldn't compete every week on the PGA tour. It's was all well and good to see Annika play and she played well, but be realistic why not play where you can win rather than play where you battle week to week just to make the cut???
 

jlim

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----------------
On 5/28/2003 11:19:57 AM sturkiej wrote:

they would live in a box. It's about being able to make money, women simply can't compete on the courses the men play, you can't argue that.
----------------
sturkiej - can you tell me why you think women can't compete on courses men play in? Everyone shoots a good game once in awhile and I would believe on Annika's good day, she'll probably finish in the top 10 players if most of the men were playing an average round with the exception of a few who played slightly better than her and the one player who played the best game of his life to beat everyone else or the best game among all the players that 1 day to beat everyone else.

If all the men played average and Annika played the best golf in that 4 days, for sure she'll beat all the men in that tournament.

Now the question would be if Tiger Woods played his best game and Annika played her best game on the same course, who would win?

I think the notion she took a place off someone deserving is irrelevant. If she entered the tournament by qualifying then I would agree she took a place from a deserving man (though the male player did play worse than her, so how is he deserving then??). But since she got a sponsors exemption, that place would have gone to either an upcoming player or a *older* player on tour who might spark an interest, like Greg Norman for example.
 

Iceman

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The men's league pays better ,could be her draw.

She said she didn't feel challenged playing with the women? I wonder what Tiger
Woods feels like or does he just love the game. I bet the guys don't cry when they
don't make the cut


Just think of the poor guy that didn't get to play because a girl took his place ?

The answer is a mixed league.

I would love to see a guy go into the lpga and clean house , then you will see the $hit
fly
 

sturkiej

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----------------
On 5/28/2003 1:44:35 PM jlim wrote:

----------------
On 5/28/2003 11:19:57 AM sturkiej wrote:

they would live in a box. It's about being able to make money, women simply can't compete on the courses the men play, you can't argue that.
----------------
sturkiej - can you tell me why you think women can't compete on courses men play in? Everyone shoots a good game once in awhile and I would believe on Annika's good day, she'll probably finish in the top 10 players if most of the men were playing an average round with the exception of a few who played slightly better than her and the one player who played the best game of his life to beat everyone else or the best game among all the players that 1 day to beat everyone else.

If all the men played average and Annika played the best golf in that 4 days, for sure she'll beat all the men in that tournament.

Now the question would be if Tiger Woods played his best game and Annika played her best game on the same course, who would win?

I think the notion she took a place off someone deserving is irrelevant. If she entered the tournament by qualifying then I would agree she took a place from a deserving man (though the male player did play worse than her, so how is he deserving then??). But since she got a sponsors exemption, that place would have gone to either an upcoming player or a *older* player on tour who might spark an interest, like Greg Norman for example.



----------------
You got one thing right it would have gone to an upcoming player that is trying to make it on tour, yet she gets an exemption just because she wants a challenge?? Why would you say if she "qualified" she took a spot from a "deserving" man?? If she qualified that would have been great she would have "earned" her spot. She just simply could not compete on a week to week basis on the long courses she wouldn't have a chance, she leads the LPGA tour in driving distance at 275.4 yards which equates to number 161 on the PGA list, can you imagine her every week giving up 30 to 40 yards to the guys on a 560 yard par 5. It just wouldn't happen, she wouldn't survive hitting her third shot from 100 yards while everyone else is putting for eagles. How many birdies would she make on par 3's that are 230 yards??? You can't keep the ball on a green that is putting 14 on the stimp with a 4-wood!!! It's just not the same, if she played a course she won on with the women and played it from the back tees w/a setup for a tournament it would play 6 to 8 shots harder. She could go from shooting 65 to shooting 71 or 72 just from the length of the course. They could give her a tour card for a year and she wouldn't make enough money to keep it!! I don't care I have played many rounds with women and gotten beaten by a few, but don't go giving out exemptions just for publicity, not when it hinders someone that is trying to make it on tour.
 

StevL

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I had a problem with the exemption when I first read about it. The more I have thought it over it doesn't bother me. I really did enjoy watching her play, more than the other exemptions that didn't make the cut.

The underlying problem is there are sponsors exemptions to be used any way they see fit. If that is the rule then I see no problem with her playing. I do see a problem with the rule.

When someone above said when she plays really well.... I think the first day was as good as she gets. I truly believe she would have a very difficult time posting a 1 under round. She was very tight on many holes, she just can't putt and her short game could also be better. I know, let a few putts drop and they can. But 64th on the LPGA putting stats isn't going to drain em for 4 days on a PGA tour green, let alone the long irons on dry firm greens.

I have followed Annika here at Mount Vintage and she is a great player, but her personality really came out in this PGA event.

Just in case Annika may read this
I’m not saying she doesn’t have game (I wish I had hers) but the PGA is a different level than she has competed in until now.
 

Iceman

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sturkiej


Here is the problem

Now lets say tiger woods wants to play in the LPGA ?

You have to let him or some of the other men that couldnt make the PGA would want to play in the easier LPGA and clean house on the money and shoot off the ladies t's.

Why is there not just one league? There is a reason.

I would love to see the men play in the LPGA , I bet they wouldnt cry if they didnt make the cut


Its going to open a bad can of worms and the ladys will all suffer from her.
 

jlim

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It is interesting most posts here seem to think a PGA player, whether rank 1 or 100 will clean house any LPGA tournament.

Do you think if Tiger Woods played under the same conditions as the women players in a LPGA tournament he would win each and every time? Well, this is silly of course. Even TW can have a bad weekend.

But let's just say TW plays in 10 LPGA event. Will he win each and every one of them?

Say the 100th. rank player plays in an LPGA event. Will he win each and every one of them also?

One thing I learn about golf is distance doesn't tell the whole story. Sure the guys can have a 9-iron or wegde hitting their approach shot but Annika would very well hit the same shot with her 6 or 7 iron as well.
 

Iceman

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If tiger woods hit off the ladies tee's it would land past the green
)))


Also Yes , I believe tiger woods could win every game on the LPGA , I also believe he would not cry if he didnt make a putt too
 
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